Communism in Prog

Lamont! You big dummy!

abyssyinfinity wrote: Trouserpress wrote: Ooh you beat me to it, Abyssy! Area were at one stage heavily involved in the Italian Communist movement, I believe. Perhaps over the Italian Communist Party, they were near to insurrectional movements as "Brigate Rosse" or "Lotta Continua", one of the reason as Prog was removed from Italian broadcasting and memory is because it remember those "Leaden Days" (Years of terrorism in Italy were about 1969-1980, when Prog was on the top...)

To compare "Brigate Rosse" with "Lotta Continua" is simply ridiculous. I have many friends which were members of Lotta Continua, and they have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. Area (apart from being a great band) were an anti-system band ina  period in which the Italian Communst Party was blamed by young people for being old-fashioned, traditionalist, heterodox and willing to come to terms with right-wing ruling parties. I don't think prog was banned from broadcasting for this reason, anyway: otherwise one couldn't eplain the success of folksingers with much more outspoken leftist political ideas. Maybe it has been banned for the same reasons it has been banned everywhere else, that is lack of appeal for the superfical majority.

aprusso wrote: Rush are admittedly right-wing inclined or anyway anti-communist. I love them anyway. Love them anyway? Have their political beliefs any relation with their music????? Would you like Rush even more if they were communists?  Some "dark" bands of the 70s like Jacula or Antonius Rex are certainly right-wing. Battiato was blamed to be so. He is certainly not a communist but a more radical "expressionst" thinker rather than a fascist or liberal. Ok, so you're a communist or a Facist? Do you know Facist ideology is closer to Communism than to right oriented Democratic parties? Facism is corporativist and Communism is essentially State Corporativism Facist leaders were autoritarian as most Communist leaders (Stalin, Kruschev, Castro, Tito, Mao Tse Tung and of course the ultra radical Pol Pot) Facist and Communist leaders hate democratic elections (Read the same names). So before using cliché words, better analyze them. If I had a dollar for each time they called me a Facist in University for not being Communist I'd be rich,  Many power-prog bands, and I bet Styx are in there, are right-wing, and so are most southamerican bands (white priveileged bourgeosie). Have you ever been in South America? I'm white and I never had a priviledge, my mother had to work 10 hours a day top pay my school and today if I don't work I don't eat, you surely don't have a clue about what you're talking, BTW: Directly or indirectly I know most of Peruvian musicians and most of them are working people.  Blue Oyster Cult is definitely left-wing for me. I'd love to think that Genesis are left-wing (but Phil Colins isn't). Again, why would you love to think they are communist? Would that make The Musical Box or Supper's Ready better? Probably Phil Collins created so much crap as a soloist because he's not a communist. I really don't care if they are communists, anarchists (left or right oriented), Socialists or liberals, the music is the only thing that really matters. I love the music of Sylvio Rodriguez and Pablo Milanés (Their lyrics make me sick because are created as an instrument to support Castro's Government) even when they sold their souls to a dictator and live as kings singing for the Revolution while Cuban population doesn't have freedom.

Iván

Atkingani wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: aprusso wrote: Many power-prog bands, and I bet Styx are in there, are right-wing, and so are most southamerican bands (white priveileged bourgeosie). Have you ever been in South America? I'm white and I never had a priviledge, my mother had to work 10 hours a day top pay my school and today if I don't work I don't eat, you surely don't have a clue about what you're talking, BTW: Directly or indirectly I know most of Peruvian musicians and most of them are working people. Iván Europeans and North Americans must know that modern societies in Latin America (with few exceptions) are very similar to their societies since we are inserted in the so-called Western World and the capitalist belt (chain?). The most noticeable difference is a greater percentage of people living below the poverty line (the 'poor') although there are local, national and regional characteristics also to be observed. The 'old vision' of a minority of white previleged urban burgeoisie and a majority of illiterated peasants of amerindian or african ancestry have disappeared since the 50s-70s (depending on the nation). In all countries here there is a powerful middle-class with living standards at least equal to that of present Mediterranean Europe. Fortunately we are (in South America) becoming more and more united and we may get good advances in all fields (although I still have restrictions to the globalization and other bleeding practices).

OK, I don't know anything about the bands ... and I don't know about the situation in South America itself, not ever having been there ...

But in my life, first as a diplomat's kid then as a journalist I have met 80-100 South Americans ... almost without exception they seemed to be members of an oligarchy of European descent.

I"m not saying every South American of European descent is filthy rich ... and that there aren't non-Europeans who are wealthy ... but that externally my own experience from my travels and being in international schools indicate that this is true in general for Latin American nations (I include Cubans too, former Cuban ambassador to Mali Alberto Juarez was a family friend ... his aunt was Che's secretary) ... even my first love (from Chile) was born into a family of German descent and her father dated Pinochet's daughter ...

the most recent Brazillian journalist I met was a typical example, of Portugese and Italian descent, her parents landowners in Brazil, with a share in one of the Sao Paolo football clubs ... and a very Euro-centric direction (her fiance was European) ...

maybe the diplomatic circle is biased, although I don't think it should be ... but this sort of dominance, disproportionate to the racial groups of these countries, is certainly reflected in my own experience of South Americans ...

No accusations ... just a curious observation that from the outside, despite recently having had leaders of Asian descent in Peru, Argentina and Ecuador (for which I have great admiration for South America ... not the leaders themselves mind you ), the percentage of wealth that is in the hands of those of European descent seems heavily imbalanced.

Is that an unfair assessment?

ivan_2068 wrote: [QUOTE=aprusso] Rush are admittedly right-wing inclined or anyway anti-communist. I love them anyway. Love them anyway? Have their political beliefs any relation with their music????? Would you like Rush even more if they were communists? Blue Oyster Cult is definitely left-wing for me. I'd love to think that Genesis are left-wing (but Phil Colins isn't). Again, why would you love to think they are communist? Would that make The Musical Box or Supper's Ready better? Probably Phil Collins created so much crap as a soloist because he's not a communist. I really don't care if they are communists, anarchists (left or right oriented), Socialists or liberals, the music is the only thing that really matters. I love the music of Sylvio Rodriguez and Pablo Milanés (Their lyrics make me sick because are created as an instrument to support Castro's Government) even when they sold their souls to a dictator and live as kings singing for the Revolution while Cuban population doesn't have freedom. Iván

Finally ... I agree with Ivan that a band's politics don't make that much difference in my appreciate of them ... I would rather listen to a good right-wing prog band then a bad left-wing punk band ... but I will say it has some effect ...

can you sing a leftist chorus with as much gusto as a non-political song, Ivan?

I do find that if message is abhorrent to me, then it makes it more difficult to accept the music ... however Rush is hardly a nasty, racist band, they (or at least Peart) just have some philosophical ideas that I disagree with ...

if some brilliant prog band had lyrics espousing violence, racism, fascism, etc ... maybe a pro-Hitler, anti-Jewish concept album ... then yes, I would have issues with it.

Norbert wrote: When you were able to visit Hungary, the regime was much softer than it was before  1963.Not to mention the early 50's. And you didn't like what you experienced, that shows your views are correct.  I suppose you were here in the 80's.

Yes, I was there in 1987 very briefly on an Eastern European tour ... which was not an easy thing to accomplish back then ... Budapest was, and I hope still is very beautiful, and I met friendly people, whereas in Czecholovakia it seemed to be more grim ... of course as a leftist I have an interest in the governments of Bela Kun and Imre Nagy (which of course was the one crushed in 1956) but if the average Hungarian is better off now, then I am happy to hear it. 

Ivan is spot on. Ask anyone who had to actually LIVE in a far left government what they think of it. How many people have been slaughtered in the name of far leftist movements? Not that far rightist movements haven't done their share, but the consistency with which the leftist movements do so is worthy of discussion.

But the point I want to get to is another one that Ivan suggested and that is the societally received perception of the politics of various bands. While exreme leftism and extreme rightism are very close, as in the horse shoe analogy, one gets treated well and is given high praise by our media (and often by our societies), while the other is not. When you look at the punk movement, far left bands are idolized all the time while bands from the far right are vilified. This vilification is justified, but why are the leftist bands given a free ride and even complimented for "fighting the power?" Why is the far left (who vocally support regimes who kill people for a living) considered better than the far right (who kill people for a living). To my eyes, at least from living in New York City, much of the "power" IS ALREADY LEFTIST, making the claim of fighting the power bogus since the the left IS predominantly the power (ESPECIALLY on virtually any college campus you examine). Rather than fighting any power, they are merely holding hands and all joining the mutually agreed-upon laugh track. This may also hold true in San Francisco, Los Angeles and Washington, DC.

Lastly, someone mentioned (and perhaps in a complimentary way) that today's left is different from the murderous left of previous generations in that is now about "anti-globalism and equality." To me, anti-globalism is NOT about egalitarianism and justice as much as it is about isolationism and moral equivalence. Anti-globalism is the post-modern, head-in-the-sand ideology that states to murderous regimes that it's OK for them to continue butchering and intimidating their people as long as they don't do it in the anti-globalists' country. Anti-globalism's "egalitarianism" also suggests that everything is equal in that there is no right and wrong, merely grievances that have not been addressed.

There was a day when the Left stood up and actually faught against fascists, as they did in Spain. Today's Left holds up most Fascist leaders with praise and excuses while hypocritically casting down hail storms on the possibility of achieving liberal democracy--Freedom--in more of the world.

No country or government has ever achieved Communism, instead they managed to change the definition of the word to mean the same as socialism.

The definition should be:

An economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

Instead they made it:

A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power.

All music should steer clear of communism, in my opinion! It was okay in the 60's when no one knew better but it is blatantly obvious now that communism has been a blight on the world and caused just as much damge as Fascism! Democracy is the only way of government that should be promoted. Communism is unnatural and

Anti Artistic!!!!

Trotsky wrote:

But in my life, first as a diplomat's kid then as a journalist I have met 80-100 South Americans ... almost without exception they seemed to be members of an oligarchy of European descent.

Well, things have changed very much since the 70's in Prú, there's no more Aristocrats, the new aristocracy is formed by the industrials, most of them started as workers and are far from being white.

Look at our President Alejandro Toledo, he's an a$$whole who tried to be liberal but doesn't know a sh!t about anything, he's 100% native Peruvian from a small town in Cuzco, of course he married with an ex-communist French woman who now lives in luxury and forgotten about her dreams of youth.

As an example, the biggest market chain called Wong (An emporium), started placing their stores in San Isidro or La Planicie where the wealthiest people live, but their store in San Miguel (A zone for supossedly low middle class and with very very few white families) sells more than all thier other stores together, this is incredible.

People who have a stand in the fruit markett (wodden 2 X 2 Mts) sell an average of 10 or 20 grands a day, those stands cost more than US$ 100,000 each one, more than a 300 ms2 house in the best zone whre the quare meter costs US$ 1,000 (Built).

Trotsky wrote:

Back on topic ... I have no dispute that the authoritaranism of many countries calling themselves Communist and that of Fascism make the regimes similar ... both were police states after all, and I have stated that I prefer living under a relatively free, right-wing government like in Malaysia or US than what I experienced albeit from a diplomatic cocoon in Laos, the old Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

Neither do I, but I hate people using the cliché of calling Facists to every person that doesn't dream with the Revolution and killing the rich b*****ds, giving all the food to the poor (I don't know how this utopic state will work without industrials to give job and a mega inflation), without knowing that Facist Populism offered exactly the same thing.

Of course those gus only dream in coffe shops drinking a 5 bucks Isrish coffee, but when they leave University and start gaining money, they become more capitalist than the most fanatic anti-communist.

Cmigkiff wrote:

But I have just one question Ivan ... which do you admire more ... the democractically elected Socialist government of Salvador Allende ... or the military dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet?

None of them, Alende was an honest idealist, I give him that, but the chaos in Chile was terrible, the extremist who helped him reach the power were trying to take control, people had to stand in the front of the markets where you couldn't buy anything.

Pinochet is a bloody criminal.

Trotsky wrote:

can you sing a leftist chorus with as much gusto as a non-political song, Ivan?

It's funny, in the University while witting for the results of elections I sat in the rotonda (Small plaza) with my cheap guitar singing revolutionary songs of Silvio Rodriguez, and enjoyed most of their lyrics, because even when I'm not a commie, I believe in social justice.

My mother laughed and asked me how could I sing this songs being a right oriented person, she said i was (and still am) contradictory.

I love The Knife which lyrics are about a Communist revolutionary, honestly I rarely listen a right oriented song, people of this political position rarely use music as propaganda.

Trotsky wrote:

I experienced albeit from a diplomatic cocoon in Laos, the old Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

Have you ever heard how the Praga spring of 67 (If I'm not wrong about the year), and the Tian Nam Meng (Can't remember who it's written) plaza movements ended, that's Communist justice and re

action against people asking for democracy. 

Cnidkiff wrote:

No country or government has ever achieved Communism, instead they managed to change the definition of the word to mean the same as socialism.

Ib believe Communist has been achived as a form of state capitalism, what haven't been achieved is real Socialism except maybe in Sweden at some moment, where everybody has the same oportunities, but no one is given anything for free. 

Captain Beyond wrote:

far left bands are idolized all the time while bands from the far right are vilified.

That's exactly my point, if someoe sings the Fourth International Anthem is a dreamer, if someone sings the Giovenezza (Facist anthem) or Cara al Sol (Franco's anthem) is a criminal. Both are wrong, but it's beautiful to feel as the Robin Hood who steals from the rich to give it to the poor.

What they don't know is that when this Robin Hoods reach the power they steal from the rich, repress the poor worst than the Notingham Sheroiff and Prince John together and they stay with the stolen money.

Iván