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aapatsos

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Joined: November 11 2005
Location: Manchester, UK
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Points: 9226

Posted: December 14 2005 at 19:40

ok chill out!

IMO GOD is not ruining prog

can't you just type a couple of words? what do you need all this ...book?

sbrushfan

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Joined: November 07 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 1177

Posted: December 14 2005 at 20:26

I think it's completely valid. People are offering their opinions and expressing their views. BRAVO!

Some world views are spacious, and some are merely spaced...

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Points: 19535

Posted: December 14 2005 at 22:03

OK, still having fun, but please use darker colors, despite my religious nature God created me with short vision:

Sean Trane wrote:

ivan_2068 wrote:

Well, you can't do hysterectomy because it's the removal of woumb, but don't be a machist, my brother in law is going to make a reversible vasectomy, it's only a small tie. But attacking my mahood. Long live the condom!!! You're as machist as the most, your masculinity is not determined for your fertilizarton capacity.

Well that's an advance, even when you're not talking about a soul but about a brain function. No , my friend , we acknowledge the soul as something different than just a vital organ!!

If it doesn't have an organic component, then it's supra natural, and of course science can't explain it, so you're falling in contradictions

You said that these signs should be prohibited in public places and both Amishs and Menonites have to use Public Registers and some publuic offices as any human. In those backwards and out of the way villages only populated by themselves , they have their own register and town halls and they do put on the walls whatever they wish. The last thing sensible central authorities would want is no get these potentially dangerous sects angry so they leave them alone.

Nope, at least in USA they have to go to the Civil Registers of the closest jurisdiction, the transactions have to be also registered in the determined jurisdiction. They don't have Notaries, so they also need to go to the nearest town to ask building permission.

But you can't make a difference between strong and weak cultural forms, Italians for example are Catholics in a Protestant country as USA, if you don't ban Catholicism, why should you ban sects (Even when I admit most sects are very dangerous). Now you are taking the sects defence!!

Fairly cruel rituals???? For God's sake, that's what I was talking about when mentioned animism and you refuted my point of view, sho can understand you? I was speaking of Excision, castrations and circumcisions, plus I do not really remember defending primitive rituals. I said that I made no difference between worshipping a tree or a volcano and praying to some supernatural divinity. I am against sacrifices!!

But be honest (I know you are) you can't compare a voodoo animist that skins a black cat alive, with a group of Catholics, Moslems or Jewishs who pray in their Chucrh, Mosque or Sinagogue.

Laws should be general for everybody. This is why it is best to keep religions to private matters and avoid it in the public place: less chances at rancor or disputes!!

Everything is a potential danger, but you can't ban everything, don't start with Religion, this is discrimination.

If you want to avoid any risk of violence and cultural colitions, that's your only alternative, why should you ban religion if you don't make a dressing code?Why can kids use long hair and Orthodox Jewish can't use black clothes hat, never save and cut their sideburns?If you don't uniform the people, you can't ban religion using that lame excuse of avoiding potential religious problems. The fact that the kipa and the shroud are making problems (let's take away the fact of gang or biker's colors out since they are criminal organizations and they are attacked for their doings anyway) is the very reason why they are banned .

Well, using a baseball cap of the Colorado Rockies in New York also creates tensions between fans, and some are real hooligans!!! so lets ban that also, better.....let's ban Beisball.

BTW:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Oops, I believe USA and all the countries of Europe signed this declaration. Certainly did do so. But once the right of freedom of religion interferes with other people's rights (walking in front of a mosque or synagogue without having manisfestations or being called an asshole because you are an infidel etc...) are infriged.

International treaties have a higher value than local laws, nations who signed them are forced to obey in all extremes even over their own Constitution.

If USA want's to ban the right of Public practice of religion, then don't be hypocrits, denounce the treatie and don't try to use it as a weapon against those countries that don't respect it.

No, but all USAPresidents say that Cuba doesn't respect the Universal Declaration of Rights (And it's absolutely true) but they don't let public practice of Religion.

A treatie is done to be accepted in all the extremes you signed, but you can't blame other countries for not respecting it when you disrespect it also, don't throw stones to another house if you have a glass roof!!!!!!!

All that I know, I'm talking about their philosophic foudations, I've even been in an Amish county in the North of USA and seen how this people recieve hostile treatment from the civilized rednecks. True enough but those same rednecks are being assholes with other rednecks from other counties as well. Anyway rednecks and intolerance and assholes are synonyms and pleonasms as far as I am concerned> I agree 200% BUT, the Amish are not friendly to strangers coming to their communities That's not true, I was treated with great respect by them, much better than by the rednecks from the nearest town, I fist had no problem because I'm white, but when they noticed my vague accent, they were a bit hostile, something that didn'thappened in the Amish County. and there is no reasons that they should be treated friendly when they venture out of their villages to mid-size cities!! You get what you pay for, And does Christian wisdom not say : do not treat others as you would not like to be treated yourself?!?!

Please, if you hit an Amish, he won't answer, they are even more pacifist than Gandhi, but bullies abuse of that power.

I Was just joking These Krishnas are really harmless as a threat to freedom , but they do convert some people who are asked to give all the money to the community/sect

I agree with you about sects.

Wow, that's very convenient, they attack all the countries that have more respect for human rights and leave alone those who clearly attack the base of freedom.They are like the kid who is searching for his lost coin bellow a street lamp even when he lost it in the dark part of the street and answers that he does it because where he lost it he can't see. The worst abuses are commited in non Democratic countries, that's the place where they should work Agreed, but they would get killed right away and it would be the end of that. AI lobbies powers to intervene where possible It is or more precisely should be a hazardous work., but it's more comfortable and safe to do it where they lives are not in risk.And they even get paid for that!!!!!! Better doing what they can in places where they can make a difference, than doing absolutely nothing and allowing abuses in "civilized"countries Something as asking the Nobel Prize for a convicted muder who never resigned to his gang?????????? Schwartzenegger is not my idol, but he did well in not giving the pardon in that case.

Greenpeace members put their boats in the way of huge Japanese or Russian ships and are often killed, that's a risk of their job, and I respect them.

How easy for AI to criticize democratic countries that allow them to work, while keep silence about countries where crimes against humanity are commited.

And for this work they recieve a very high salary (I know that, I'm lawyer of one ONG and know all about their taxes).Well, the Jewishs are free to create the Red Star of David if they want, if I'm wounded, I'm honest to admit I wouldn't absolutely care if ther Red Cross, Red Crescent or Red Star of David come to my help as long as they save my miserable life. You are a reasoinable religious man, but not everyone is like you

No relation, my motivation is mean, I love to be alive, and I don't care if a Jewish, Christian, Catholic, Moslem or Atheist doctor takes care of me as long as he's good in his job.

As a matter of facts most good doctors in Perú are Jewish and I don't have the slightest problem in going to visit them and speak about Prog with my Mom's endocrinologist who's last name is Weissmann (The guy has the best collection of Israeli and Palestinian Prog').

BTW: The Red Cross is not a Religious symbol, they use it because it was founded by Henri Dunant from Switzerland in 1863, and it's a reference to the flag of his country:

Swiss Flag

[quote] The symbol of the Red Cross on a white background (the reverse of the Swiss flag) was chosen to represent the organization. From this conference evolved the Red Cross Convention of 1864. True but the cross on the swiss flag is a religious symbol and the organization was started by christian activist You said it, HE STARTED IT so he has the right to choose the symbol, and they did not care what was the religion of the people of the wounded onm the battlefield. A very generous ideal. Very Christian!!! Unfortunately this red cross flag was too similar to the Crusade and templars flags and during the WW1 ,For God's sake, the Hindu symbol of peace is a Svastica oriented to the left, so what!!!! the Ottomans Turks saw it as an insult even though this Red Cross was caring for their own It's their choice to die, the help is there without condtions ordiscrimination . So what this great ONG is thinking is simply using a red square in a white backdrop all over the world to not make any reference to religion anymore, since again the problems comes from religious acrimony!! Comes from some religious intollerance to be preciseThis is a vicious circle!!

I don't accept that, Mr Henri Dunnant created the Red Cross with his money and effort, when there was nothing similar, and he choosed a symbol, I believe he deserves to be honoured for that respecting his will.

If I create an institution with my money and effort, I have the right to choose the symbol that I want and the people that carry my work must accept my will.

The Catholic Church created and still supports a lot of Hospitals and Schools, nobody in the world has the right to ask them to take the cross or the Virgin's image from their buildings.

If an activist prefers to die before letting any Catholic institution to save his life, it's his problem.

If other religions or Atheists want to create their own version, they are free to do so, but please respect the wish of the founder.

I still can't understand USA, you can't name God in a public school, but if you are a member one of those weird sects that don't recieve transfusions, the Supreme Court defends that right, even in the case of children who die because stupid fanatism of their parents doesn't allow them to recieve medical attention.

I was called to defend a person that was accused of murder for negligence because he let his wife die of an Asthma crisis because her Reverend said that it was a sin against God and a distrust to him going to a doctor, they prayed all night and the poor woman died anyway when two milligrams of adrenalin and an injection of corticoids would have been enough to save her. Of course I refused the case.

I was saving this one after the Templars and the Free masons are still to come....... Because the atheists you accuse in the Civil rights Watcher are really Free Masons - who are not atheists.............

That's something I don't get, the Masons have a Jewish organization, use some early Christian symbols plus some Greek and they are Atheists? isn't that contradictory?

Free masons are NOT atheists!!!! .They claim to be!!! They choose to make abstraction of religious dfifferences!! Difference. The roots of free-masonry is definitely christian I would dare to say Jewish, their symbol, the compas and the triangle is an incomplete Star of David .and the helpe out restoring cathedrals in Europe by with teaching and preservation of arts. Any form of art should be preserved it would be a crime to loose La Sagrada Famila Cathedral or The Abu Simbel Temple. This is very vivid in France, Belgium, Spain etc.... They free masons are carving stones or restoring clergical art through Les Compagnons and their sheer love of preserving the partimonium. Clergical art is patrimonium of humanity, won't you think it would be a crime to destroy The David by Michelangelo or The Virgin of the Rocks by Raphael? Art must be preserved. But please get out of your heads that free-masons are atheists>> They define themselves as free thinkers (Free Thinkers = Humanists = Atheists, at least in most cases) and refuse to obei to any dogma or induced current of thoughts except their own bizarre mix!! Dogma is the base of every religion, if you don't believe in doigmas, you're most probably an Atheist.

HUGUES

Iván

Wow, this thread is magic, I keep deleting sections with agreements and it keeps growing, I believe it's the largest one in this forum by mostly two persons and in such friendly terms.

tardis

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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: Victoria, BC
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Points: 14378

Posted: December 15 2005 at 00:00

By the time I scroll down, I've already grown a few grey hairs...

SaintAndy

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Joined: December 14 2005
Location: Chile
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Points: 1

Posted: December 15 2005 at 00:05

mmm, good viewpoints
but...
music was born from religious cults...
and the angels sing to God for his mercy and glory...
and for his great love...
and they do music with their voices...
and so, God is the creator of it all...
And his Love trascend everything, even music...
thanks

respect to Neal Morse, he just opened his eyes and saw the truth...

tardis

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: Victoria, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 14378

Posted: December 15 2005 at 00:12

WELL SAID!

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
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Points: 20250

Posted: December 15 2005 at 09:04

I have short vision also , but God had nothing to with it. Genetics did!!

ivan_2068 wrote:

OK, still having fun, but please use darker colors, despite my religious nature God created me with short vision:

Sean Trane wrote:

ivan_2068 wrote:

Well, you can't do hysterectomy because it's the removal of woumb, but don't be a machist, my brother in law is going to make a reversible vasectomy, it's only a small tie. But attacking my mahood. Long live the condom!!! You're as machist as the most, your masculinity is not determined for your fertilizarton capacity. For someone so worried of his fertilization powers and not wanting to have kids because this planet is so screwed up

If it doesn't have an organic component, then it's supra natural, and of course science can't explain it, so you're falling in contradictions. The soul is not supernatural or supranatural since it exist!!! Gotcha on this issue!!

Nope, at least in USA they have to go to the Civil Registers of the closest jurisdiction, the transactions have to be also registered in the determined jurisdiction. They don't have Notaries, so they also need to go to the nearest town to ask building permission. OK whatever, but they keep to themselves and make rare excursions to the outside world as little as possible

Castration and mutilation of feminine organs is a crime against humanity and should be banned, but circumsition? I'm not even Jewish and I'm circunsized, it lowers your risk of penis cancer to less than 10%. I believe it is also healthier and I am also circumcized> But to make this operation mandatory to be a good jew and be accepted by your peer and into heaven is sickening!!!

But be honest (I know you are) you can't compare a voodoo animist that skins a black cat alive, with a group of Catholics, Moslems or Jewishs who pray in their Church, Mosque or Sinagogue. I do not compare them per se , but to me all those people believing in supernatural events (and not searching for a scientific explanation of the event) are irrational and put in the same category of : "BELIEVERS"

Laws should be general for everybody. This is why it is best to keep religions to private matters and avoid it in the public place: less chances at rancor or disputes!!

Then you should ban any activity that could be a danger against peace, political manifestations, Carnivals for fund raising, dressing in a provocative way, using hair and clothes against a normal standart, etc. Some political rallies should be banned especially the pro-nazi ones but also every extremists asking for satisfaction. NOT Everything is a potential danger, but you can't ban everything, don't start with Religion, this is discrimination. Gotta start with something and since religions are the principle reason of frictions, disputes and wars (although since the XXth century most wars were not about religion, I'll grant you that)

Well, using a baseball cap of the Colorado Rockies in New York also creates tensions between fans, and some are real hooligans!!! so lets ban that also, better.....let's ban Baseball. No-one is killing each other at baseball matches , something that cannotbe said of Footbal (soccer) both in South America and Europe. I propose we stop diverting from the subject here!

BTW:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 18.

International treaties have a higher value than local laws, nations who signed them are forced to obey in all extremes even over their own Constitution.If USA want's to ban the right of Public practice of religion, then don't be hypocrits, denounce the treatie and don't try to use it as a weapon against those countries that don't respect it.No, but all USAPresidents say that Cuba doesn't respect the Universal Declaration of Rights (And it's absolutely true) but they don't let public practice of Religion.A treatie is done to be accepted in all the extremes you signed, but you can't blame other countries for not respecting it when you disrespect it also, don't throw stones to another house if you have a glass roof!!!!!!! Agreed!! Between Castro and Bush, I think I like the old geezer better. Surely the man is a b*****d , but he has managed his own way for a while now. And not everything is bad in Cuba even if freedom is curtailed.

And does Christian wisdom not say : do not treat others as you would not like to be treated yourself?!?!

Please, if you hit an Amish, he won't answer, they are even more pacifist than Gandhi, but bullies abuse of that power. But the Amish or Menonites (Since my only contacts were with those) will treat with a certain disdain even if with a certain respect!! This is what I meant!!

It is or more precisely should be a hazardous work., but it's more comfortable and safe to do it where they lives are not in risk.And they even get paid for that!!!!!! Better doing what they can in places where they can make a difference, than doing absolutely nothing and allowing abuses in "civilized"countries Something as asking the Nobel Prize for a convicted muder who never resigned to his gang?????????? Schwartzenegger is not my idol, but he did well in not giving the pardon in that case. Never said that AI was perfect either!!! I have my doubts about them too, but I find your attacks a little to light on the fact that they cannot intervene in Iran or North Korea. What should they do, then Declare war onm those countries.. They are only a pressure groups and their original aim is generous to the point that many Christians and Atheists agree with them. As for Schwarzie , the man is close to a nazi with his stupid broom. Can't ask too much from a steroid abuser!!

If you are a member of he Peace Corps, then you have to risk your life, if you're a Doctor without Frontiers, you have to work in nations where your life is in risk, and they do it with pleasure, ????? with a difference, the hypocrits of AI gain a lot of money for working in comfortable environments while Peace Corps and Doctors without Frontiers do it falmost or free. I believe they (AI) spend most of the money they receive for lawyers in court battles of those wrongly jailed. Those hired lawyers are not cheap (i suspect you know this too) and they probably risk their lives too. I wonder if AI is watching closely on how the Saddam trial is happening with already three dead defence lawyers. I am not a Saddam fan , but love to see him rile this sore excuse of justice that will take place!! He deserves to be found guilty for all his crimes , but the judges should not be American puppets. And I am not so sure it is not the case!!

Greenpeace members put their boats in the way of huge Japanese or Russian ships and are often killed, that's a risk of their job, and I respect them. I once offered to help Green peace , they said yes , go find money for us! i gave up right away!! greenpeace is very dictatorial in its inner structure , and they spend many millions in lawyers and lobbies in diplomatic salons also!!

How easy for AI to criticize democratic countries that allow them to work, while keep silence about countries where crimes against humanity are commited. Read their pamphlets!!!! How can you believe they keep silent against North Korea or Columbia or Zimbabwe or Iran???

The symbol of the Red Cross on a white background (the reverse of the Swiss flag) was chosen to represent the organization. From this conference evolved the Red Cross Convention of 1864. True but the cross on the swiss flag is a religious symbol and the organization was started by christian activist You said it, HE STARTED IT so he has the right to choose the symbol but religious currents are the ones screwing it up!!!!, and they did not care what was the religion of the people of the wounded onm the battlefield. A very generous ideal. Very Christian!!! I know!!!Unfortunately this red cross flag was too similar to the Crusade and templars flags and during the WW1 ,For God's sake, the Hindu symbol of peace is a Svastica oriented to the left, so what!!!! Actually it is a wonder why they have not yet made their voices heard!! the Ottomans Turks saw it as an insult even though this Red Cross was caring for their own It's their choice to die, the help is there without conditions ordiscrimination All they did was asked for the cross hurting their personal religious beliefs be taken away!!. STILL THE SAME PROBLEMS!!! HOPEFULLY BY MAKINFG THE RED SQUARE THIS RELIGIOUS ACRIMONY WILL FINALLY STOP!!!! THIS IS BLOODY RIDICULOUS!! THIIS ONG ARE OUT TO HELP VICTIMS AND ALL OF THOSE RELIGIOUS CURRENT ARE BICKERING !!!!! SICKENING AND ONE OF THE VERY REASON WHY I AM HAPPY ATHEISTS!!!So what this great ONG is thinking is simply using a red square in a white backdrop all over the world to not make any reference to religion anymore, since again the problems comes from religious acrimony!! Comes from some religious intollerance to be preciseThis is a vicious circle!!

If I create an institution with my money and effort, I have the right to choose the symbol that I want and the people that carry my work must accept my will. Tell that to the religious people. I never heard an atheist even thinking of this cross being a problem!!!

If other religions or Atheists want to create their own version, they are free to do so, but please respect the wish of the founder. But the red cross is not religious anymore (never really was IMHO either but they statred with Christians preceipts of charity. Most generous really!! They willingly adopted the red crescent but it cost them a lot and this change to a red square will cost them more. Instead of spending those millions in heath care!

I still can't understand USA, you can't name God in a public school, What are you talking about?!?! In US school a Christian prair is aired on the interphone after the National an them abnnd takling the pledge of allegiance almost every morning. This is actually quite sickening if you ask me!!but if you are a member one of those weird sects that don't recieve transfusions, the Supreme Court defends that right, even in the case of children who die because stupid fanatism of their parents doesn't allow them to recieve medical attention.

Free masons are NOT atheists!!!! .They claim to be!!! They will kick you out of their temple if you even try to hint this to them. They are non-religious not anti-religious!! Big difference. They get together from all horizons but they leave their private beliefs at home where it belongs!! They choose to make abstraction of religious dfifferences!! Difference. The roots of free-masonry is definitely christian I would dare to say Jewish, their symbol, the compas and the triangle is an incomplete Star of David . The compass is related to the the Templar as a sign of profession to christian faith, I believe (not that sure about this) but I never heard it being a jewish symbol - it symbolizes a trade (maths and architecture. and the helpe out restoring cathedrals in Europe by with teaching and preservation of arts. Any form of art should be preserved it would be a crime to loose La Sagrada Famila Cathedral or The Abu Simbel Temple. Agree with you!!!This is very vivid in France, Belgium, Spain etc.... They free masons are carving stones or restoring clergical art through Les Compagnons and their sheer love of preserving the partimonium. Clergical art is patrimonium of humanity, won't you think it would be a crime to destroy The David by Michelangelo or The Virgin of the Rocks by Raphael? Art must be preserved. I never even suggested or hinted that the Free Masons were going wrong about this issue! It makes them even more humane for doing so by making abstraction of personal religious beliefsBut please get out of your heads that free-masons are atheists>> They define themselves as free thinkers (Free Thinkers = Humanists = Atheists, at least in most cases) I would say in some case!! but all atheist would aplause this great definition even if it very flattering from a christian. This great shortcut of yours is probably the best complement you can make to atheists, but we would not say that we have the monopoly on such a wisdom!!!! But Free massons are free thinkers and Atheists trust Free masons more than organized religions. They fought on the same side on many issues which to a Christians might be reason enough to confuse the two cutrrents!! (i love this debate!!!!)nd refuse to obei to any dogma or induced current of thoughts except their own bizarre mix!! Dogma is the base of every religion, if you don't believe in doigmas, you're most probably an Atheist. BINGO!!!!!!! I think I am getting someewhere with you!!!! the very notion of a dogma is sickening to us!!

They were a very important tool of counter-power against the clergical stances of politics during the 19th century and can be best seen as liberals in Europe. This means that they promote free enterprise and have a fairly capitalist economic stance. But they fought the clergy hard because the clergy was angry of politics line escaping its influence. Oh please!!!! Sherlock Holmes would be proud of your method even if the conclusion is not necesarilly accurate. I believe most lawyers would be impressed with my defence of free thinking and actually be completely convinced of the points I made throughout this debate!!!!! I am on the verge of succeeding to make my point whty atheists are superior (in theory only) because they are non-believers!!! To most people Atheism is a religion with a dogma a doctine and a given form of divinity!! Nothing could be further from the truth!!

HUGUES

Iván

Wow, this thread is magic, I keep deleting sections with agreements and it keeps growing, I believe it's the largest one in this forum by mostly two persons and in such friendly terms.

HUGUES

Keep the magic happening , but I will respect the 12 days of peace for Christrians. Tomorrow is my last working day and my web adventures will be greatly diminished until the second week of the new year!!

I think we can return to more conventinal letterings (non bold and non-italic) now, the original writings have been erased!!!

Edited by Sean Trane

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

StyLaZyn

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Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079

Posted: December 15 2005 at 09:40

SaintAndy wrote:

mmm, good viewpoints
but...
music was born from religious cults...
and the angels sing to God for his mercy and glory...
and for his great love...
and they do music with their voices...
and so, God is the creator of it all...
And his Love trascend everything, even music...
thanks

respect to Neal Morse, he just opened his eyes and saw the truth...

I work with religious zealots who try to convince everyone and their brother that Christianity is the only true religion. I am so beside myself with these attitudes that the last thing I want to hear about is someone's religious views in music. This is exactly why I do not by Neal Morse because I know the lyrics will ruin the listening experience for me. I will be disagreeing with him the whole time he churns out his belief.

Perhaps music has it's foundations in religious cults (primitive man) but that doesn't mean music is for God. Hello? Lyrics that are athiest or Satanic? This is for God? Sure music pleases man, but so do lots of things, like alcohol and sex, things which God created. The zealot looses focus on reality.

I think religion, christianity in particular, divides man when it's function is to create unification.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, Your Christians are so unlike
your Christ. -- Mahatma Gandi.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Location: Peru
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Posted: December 15 2005 at 16:24

Sean wrote:

I have short vision also , but God had nothing to with it. Genetics did!!

ivan_2068 wrote:

OK, still having fun, but please use darker colors, despite my religious nature God created me with short vision:

Sean Trane wrote:

ivan_2068 wrote:

So you admit it exists, doesn't have an organic component, you admit there something trascendental to just flesh, bones and blood, that's an advance for any Atheist, being that almost everyone denies theexistence of a soul, I believe I'm advancing. soon I'll have you singing hymns.

Sounds very similar to the solution of the USA citizens with native Americans, "Let then live as long as they remain in their reservations"

What about the free transit estipulated in all the world Constitutions and UN?

It's heathier and cleaner, so what's your problem?

The Thorah or Old Testament in heDeutheronomy includes a lot of inhuman penalties (From our perspective, but it was written in the Bronce Age), but it has very healthy rules:

No pork: Pork is full of grease and the cause of triquinosis (Don't know the translation), it's better to avoid it if not properly cooked, something hard in the Bronze Age.
No shrimps: Pure cholesterol, it's better to avoid them
No mixing of milk and alcohol: Very healthy recomendation to avoid acidoscis.
Circumsition: Healthy and clean, of course Rabis don't have to be so literal and do it with a bliss without anaesthetics, because when it was written there wsa no pain killers.

I believe that the Deutheronomy was written by experts in all fields, or maybe by the hand of God (I believe more in the New Testament).

So, everything is healthy, why you have such problems?

I think Ihave proved you that most of us are not irrationals.

But who will decide what is extremist and what is not? The Government? You would be giving dictators a good weapon to get rid of the oposition.

Everything is a potential danger, but you can't ban everything, don't start with Religion, this is discrimination. Gotta start with something and since religions are the principle reason of frictions, disputes and wars (although since the XXth century most wars were not about religion, I'll grant you that)

Then if it's not the main problem TODAY (except for Atheists), why start with Religion?

About soccer, it's a good example, I live 5 blocks away from the stadium of my favorite team (Universitario de Deportes) that gathers 40% + 1 of the fans, each time they play against their nemesis (Alianza Lima) who has 40% - 1 of thef ans, my house suffers the consequences, this is a residential zone but the major ($$$$) allowed the construction of the stadium.

But nobody will ban football, this would be absurd, I'm searching for an innocent who will buy my house and move.

If the problems don't avoid you, then you must avoid the problems.

Sorry man, I've been in Varadero twice and visited La Habana, talked with their people and honestly I prefer Bush 1,000 times, Give me freedom or give me death!!!

While I throwed my mohito or 12 years scotch when it got warm (all included so I could always ask for one more), this people are starving outside the hotel, you can get sex with the most beautiful girls from the Tropicana for 20 bucks or less (Damn, the first time I went with my girlfroiend, what kind of a$$hole takes a lunch box to a dinner?)

The second time I went broke a teeth in a stupid fight, the first since tenth grade (A British guy accused me of sleeping with his wife, something I never did because I found she was married), thanks God I had an insurance because the Dentist (Who worked in a dirty room with chairs all arround his work station) forced me to pay 300 bucks for a bit of cement (I didn't accepted invasive treatment in those conditions, not even anaestesia because he used the same needle for all the patients).

So don't tell me things work, not even the so promoted health system, just ask yourself why people escape from the paradise in rubber boats, risking their lives?

This is called distrust, if people hurts them, why should they trust people?

Schwarzie is another case he can't even say California correctly , but I support his decision in the death penalty case, he proved he has ba**s.

The Saddam trial will probably as legal as the Nuremberg trials, but all the world supported those (Of course I also support those trials).

But the rules of a trial and a peace convention are determined by the winner, that's the reality and we must accept it.

But at least they put their bodies in the fire line.

I read all the anual reports since 1981, and they are very bland with the dictatorial Governments and very strong agaoinst the democratic.

True but the cross on the swiss flag is a religious symbol and the organization was started by christian activist You said it, HE STARTED IT so he has the right to choose the symbol but religious currents are the ones screwing it up!!!!, and they did not care what was the religion of the people of the wounded onm the battlefield. A very generous ideal. Very Christian!!! I know!!!Unfortunately this red cross flag was too similar to the Crusade and templars flags and during the WW1 ,For God's sake, the Hindu symbol of peace is a Svastica oriented to the left, so what!!!! Actually it is a wonder why they have not yet made their voices heard!! the Ottomans Turks saw it as an insult even though this Red Cross was caring for their own It's their choice to die, the help is there without conditions ordiscrimination All they did was asked for the cross hurting their personal religious beliefs be taken away!!. They refuse to recieve free help from people who is risking their lives? Thiose are fanatics, I'm against them as you are: STILL THE SAME PROBLEMS!!! HOPEFULLY BY MAKINFG THE RED SQUARE THIS RELIGIOUS ACRIMONY WILL FINALLY STOP!!!! THIS IS BLOODY RIDICULOUS!! THIIS ONG ARE OUT TO HELP VICTIMS AND ALL OF THOSE RELIGIOUS CURRENT ARE BICKERING !!!!! SICKENING AND ONE OF THE VERY REASON WHY I AM HAPPY ATHEISTS!!!

AGAIN: "I don't accept BLACKMAILLING FROM EXTREMISTS , IF THEY ARE WILLING TO DIE, THEN IT'S THEIR CHOICE. I agree with you too, but religions are the one messing it up!! Then the blame will fall on those FANATICS, not on all religious people.

Maybe not this cross, but religious symbols in public buildings are a big issue for Atheists, they worry to take a crucifix from schools but kids carry switchblades and even guns.

Blame the fanatics both religious and atheist fanatics.

They are free to do so, but the law should protect their kids because they are not old enough to decide if they want to die for a literal understanding of a symbolic book as the Bible.

Hey man, they wear all their symbols in public places, like rings, pins etc, it's not a religion, but for our case it's the same thing.

They choose to make abstraction of religious dfifferences!! Difference. The roots of free-masonry is definitely christian I would dare to say Jewish, their symbol, the compas and the triangle is an incomplete Star of David . The compass is related to the the Templar as a sign of profession to christian faith, I believe (not that sure about this) but I never heard it being a jewish symbol - it symbolizes a trade (maths and architecture.

Read Levi Marrero's The Worst Enemies of our Countries, of course the guy is a sick anti semitic b*****d, but gives interesting facts about Mason rituals and architecture.

thinkers (Free Thinkers = Humanists = Atheists, at least in most cases) I would say in some case!! but all atheist would aplause this great definition even if it very flattering from a christian. This great shortcut of yours is probably the best complement you can make to atheists, but we would not say that we have the monopoly on such a wisdom!!!!

I don't believeit's necesarilly wisdom, only free thinking without any restriction, because religion is a restriction to our behaviour, but of course gladly accepted by our own free will

But Free massons are free thinkers and Atheists trust Free masons more than organized religions. They fought on the same side on many issues which to a Christians might be reason enough to confuse the two cutrrents!! (i love this debate!!!!)

Atheists trust a secret logia whose real beliefs and agenda we all ignore????? For God's sake, a bow of secrecy is praised by Atheists, this is more medieval than the Inquisition and the Witch Hunt.

nd refuse to obei to any dogma or induced current of thoughts except their own bizarre mix!! Dogma is the base of every religion, if you don't believe in doigmas, you're most probably an Atheist. BINGO!!!!!!! I think I am getting someewhere with you!!!! the very notion of a dogma is sickening to us!!

It may be sickening for you, but it's something to be proud for us, the prove our faith beyond the physicall evidence, and a demonstration of courage.

BTW: There's no evidence of the non existence of God either, so science is of no use in this case.

Nope, honestly still you haven't convinced me, I find a lot of holes in your evidence and wrong methodology in many cases.

I don't doubt for a second you're a moral being, but still I'm convinced of my beliefs.

HUGUES

Iván

Wow, this thread is magic, I keep deleting sections with agreements and it keeps growing, I believe it's the largest one in this forum by mostly two persons and in such friendly terms.

HUGUES

I think we can return to more conventinal letterings (non bold and non-italic) now, the original writings have been erased!!!

I will keep it until the restof the members ban us

Iván

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20250

Posted: December 16 2005 at 06:04

ivan_2068 wrote:

Sean wrote:

ivan_2068 wrote:

Sean Trane wrote:

ivan_2068 wrote:

So you admit it exists, doesn't have an organic component, you admit there something transcendental to just flesh, bones and blood, that's an advance for any Atheist, being that almost everyone denies theexistence of a soul, I believe I'm advancing. soon I'll have you singing hymns. To me the souls has not an organic component except for the body - well mostly the brains but also the "heart " (in the soul sense), but I would not call it transcendental. The religious beliefs and drugs and even love (I refer to the infatuation stage of the love process) may cause transcendental state of minds (I still toke on the odd joint of Mary Jane - but that is enough transcendental voyage for me). This is why music can also induce this transcendental state too, because we let it catch our irrational side! (please not I am voluntary feeding you material for further agreement without making sure I can match your future answer!!)

Sounds very similar to the solution of the USA citizens with native Americans, "Let then live as long as they remain in their reservations" It is in a way similar to native Americans that they can remain in their villages/reserves without complying to modern laws and society but if they come out and start working, they must pay taxes too! In a sense , it is a bit like a jail.

What about the free transit stipulated in all the world Constitutions and UN? Amerindians can cross the borders between Canada and US without showing ID, visas or be controlled for taxes. It should also be the case between US and Mexico but for Immigration reasons , I am not so sure that it works that easily!

Amerindians (I am not that sure about this either) have the right to both Canadian and US nationality - or none if they wish. This right was exerted by Hockey player Bryan Trottier who considered himself Canadian (he was from a tribe whose reserve was located in Canada - Quebec if memory serves me well) , but since he could not find a space to play in the Canada National team (well he did when younger but as the days/years wore on....) he changed to the US national team (where internal competition was not as fierce) without changing a thing! So were the press articles saying anyway , because I am sure that formalities were necessary.

It's heathier and cleaner, so what's your problem? Who said I had a problem with it. Making it a mandatory religious ritual is the part I have a problem with!

No pork: Pork is full of grease and the cause of triquinosis (Don't know the translation), it's better to avoid it if not properly cooked, something hard in the Bronze Age. For hygienic reasons mainl because the porc meat had conservation problems.
No shrimps: Pure cholesterol, it's better to avoid them I hate shrimps!!
No mixing of milk and alcohol: Very healthy recomendation to avoid acidoscis. Aghain for hygyenic reasons you could not stock dairy products with meat products , the bacterias developped uncontrolably together. Even with modern fridges it is better not to stock your Camembert with your paté
Circumsition: Healthy and clean, of course Rabis don't have to be so literal and do it with a bliss without anaesthetics, because when it was written there wsa no pain killers. but having a sacred ceremony in hospital does not make a serious ceremony , uh? This is my problem with it. Mandatory and barbaric conditions.

I think I have proved you that most of us are not irrationals. As you say later, your proofs certainly did not convince me!

But who will decide what is extremist and what is not? The Government? You would be giving dictators a good weapon to get rid of the oposition. Of course we are talking of democratic regimes here , but you are right, it comes to interpretations!!

Then if it's not the main problem TODAY (except for Atheists), why start with Religion? Still one of the main cause, the other is money, cupidity and oil, which actually when you think of it, is the same issue. Want to start eradicating money and cupidity and petrol from our planet? (actually it would be a good idea but not really feasable)

My point is that every human activity is risky, Politics, sports (Remember the riots when the Denver Broncos won the Super Bowl) and also Religion, but you can't ban all, for the same reason you can't ban only one of them. For all I care we can ban professional sports full of doped people. The very fact of making sport a profession is rather not sitting too well with me. I could still live with it if those guys earned a reasonable salary. But these huge contracts are sickening

But nobody will ban football, this would be absurd (i mwish it would not be so absurd), I'm searching for an innocent (you mean a potential victim) who will buy my house and move.

If the problems don't avoid you, then you must avoid the problems. Agree!!

Sorry man, I've been in Varadero twice and visited La Habana, talked with their people and honestly I prefer Bush 1,000 times, Give me freedom or give me death!!!

This people live with a salary of 140 pesos = US$ 7.00, no market accepts Pesos even when dollars are not legal, the incredibly beautiful and intelligent girl that cleaned my hotel bathroom was an engineer and her husband a doctor, both worked in the hotel just because they are allowed to take the food leftovers to their house, tips are illegal, some tourists give them anyway, I even did it and the tip represented a 5 months salary. OK , remember that the Cuba situation is also and mostly the fault of the US enforcing a unilateral embargo styarted during the cold war for over 50 years now. Only Clinton and is Cuban cigars in the Monica gate was the only export towards the US.

While I throwed my mohito or 12 years scotch when it got warm (all included so I could always ask for one more), this people are starving outside (I never saw anyone starving in Cuba and if it was the case the US would denounce it right away - Cuba has one of the longest life-expectancy in the world, too - well if you are a Castro supporter) the hotel, you can get sex with the most beautiful girls from the Tropicana for 20 bucks or less (Damn, the first time I went with my girlfroiend, what kind of a$$hole takes a lunch box to a dinner?) Prostitution is only a way to survive for them, but in so-called free countries most prostitutes are forced and enslaved and coming from Africa or Eastern Europe

So don't tell me things work (whoever said that???) , not even the so promoted health system, just ask yourself why people escape from the paradise in rubber boats, risking their lives?

AMISH:This is called distrust, if people hurts them, why should they trust people? Point taken

Schwarzie is another case he can't even say California correctly , but I support his decision in the death penalty case, he proved he has ba**s. I have not followed that case, so I have no opinion on it !! (other than Shwarzzie being some kind of fascist, but the freedom thing has gotten to a weird and problematic point in California)

The Saddam trial will probably as legal as the Nuremberg trials, but all the world supported those (Of course I also support those trials). I have my hope it will, but no defence lawyers were killed before the Nuremberg trials!! Here obviously somebody wants to shut up the defence , because I think Saddam will put on quite a show, but also there are a lot of embarrassing things that the new power in place wants to avoid!!!!

But the rules of a trial and a peace convention are determined by the winner, that's the reality and we must accept it. A travesty of justice this one will be!!

But at least they put their bodies in the fire line. How many AI activists have died or are in jails of non-democratic countries???

I read all the anual reports since 1981, and they are very bland with the dictatorial Governments and very strong against the democratic. When a ONG is printing results , they are putting forward the points they got through and not the ones that they failed to put forth> You do not expect multi-national Nestle to print the markets they failed to win over , but they will print that they have gained 0.00000055 % of share in the market place!

Maybe not this cross, but religious symbols in public buildings are a big issue for Atheists, they worry to take a crucifix from schools but kids carry switchblades and even guns.Come on , for decades Atheists had no problems with the crioss on the school walls, they only want it down because it is causing unrest from other integrist. The religions should first sweep their front porches and stop putting the blame on the ones that want to solve things!!

Blame the fanatics both religious (zillions of those)and atheist fanatics(a few dozen on planetary scale).

I believe it's a stupid symbolism, but the religious mentions are only circumstantial, they are swearing loyalty to their flag. Something ridiculous, you may be loyal to a country, a person a faith, but to a piece of fabtric? I remember in Canada , the Holy Father prayer being imposed on everybody, Confuscius followers included!!

but if you are a member one of those weird sects that don't recieve transfusions, the Supreme Court defends that right, even in the case of children who die because stupid fanatism of their parents doesn't allow them to recieve medical attention. Agreed!!! but In Belgium , these Jehovahs refused to take care of their own kids once they had received the blood transfusion.

They are free to do so, but the law should protect their kids because they are not old enough to decide if they want to die for a literal understanding of a symbolic book as the Bible. see my remark above!!

Hey man, the Free Masons wear all their symbols in public places, like rings, pins etc, it's not a religion, but for our case it's the same thing. Shows you how little you know about them. Free Masons are extremely discreet in western europe!!Nobody actually admits belonging to the loggias, and this adds to the shroud of mystery they love to cast themselves in.

Read Levi Marrero's The Worst Enemies of our Countries, of course the guy is a sick anti semitic b*****d, but gives interesting facts about Mason rituals and architecture. Right!! Free massonry is according to you of Jewish descent and this guy is a sick anti-semitic> Is there not a huge contradiction in your reasoning

You don't need to be a genius to notice that creating two parallels from the base of the compass and the triangle ruller (Escuadra in Spanish, don't know the translation) you got a star of David, of course not as pretty as the one in the drawing. You guys are seeing things where there aren't any>>This would mean that the 5 pronged star is also an evil symbol because it is used by satanist for sacrifices. free masonry is the descsendance of the Templars , most likely - and if not who cares?

I don't believe it's necesarilly wisdom, only free thinking without any restriction, because religion is a restriction to our behaviour, but of course gladly accepted by our own free will .. but force-fed to kids from the moments of Baptism!! I had to go through the motions until I was 8 and decided I would fake it and refiused to do my confirmation when I was 12. This was a real scandal in the grandparents and the schooling system. They blamed my parents for this and they were almost outcasted!! thank God (if you will allow me!) that we were in Canada by then.

Atheists trust a secret logia whose real beliefs and agenda we all ignore????? For God's sake, a bow of secrecy is praised by Atheists, this is more medieval than the Inquisition and the Witch Hunt. The fact is that Free Massons and Atheists became objective allies for about 200 years stasrting with the French revolution in a defined cause against religious oppression until the 50's, but atheists distance themselves from Free Masonry!!

nd refuse to obei to any dogma or induced current of thoughts except their own bizarre mix!! Dogma is the base of every religion, if you don't believe in doigmas, you're most probably an Atheist. BINGO!!!!!!! I think I am getting somewhere with you!!!! the very notion of a dogma is sickening to us!!

It may be sickening for you, but it's something to be proud for us, the prove our faith beyond the physical evidence, and a demonstration of courage. Here we can see how far the gap between us is huge!!

BTW: There's no evidence of the non existence of God either, so science is of no use in this case. First try to prove it exist before we can shoot your theories to shreads!!!.

Nope, honestly still you haven't convinced me, I was not having any illusions , but I am sure that over the last three weeks , you have seen the atheists in another way than pagans , satan worshippers, a sect and Free Masonry!!! This was my main hope and I think I might have achieved it!I find a lot of holes in your evidence and wrong methodology in many cases. You have studied argumentative debateds to University so you have an unfair advantage in dabate which I must reckon , you do quite well! I , on the other hand am self-taught and should've been an easy prey for the lions(pardon the pun).

I don't doubt for a second you're a moral being, but still I'm convinced of my beliefs. My goal was not to convert you! Us atheists do not resort to such things! We reason people!!

HUGUES

I think we can return to more conventinal letterings (non bold and non-italic) now, the original writings have been erased!!!

I will keep it until the restof the members ban us

Iván

Excommunication from the ProgArchives sect???!!!! now that is Scary!!

HUGUES

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 16 2005 at 14:59

Sean wrote:

You can be stubborn as you want, but you admitted the existence of a soul, don't pretend to deny it.

That's what you're asking for Amish? A live in jail withouthaving commited any cryme.

WOW you're a master in changing subjects, the American Indians was only an example I WAS TALKING ABOUT AMISH AND MENONITES AND YOU KNOW IT.

You said that they should rarely leave their communities and I said that was an attempt to the free transit right.

It's heathier and cleaner, so what's your problem? Who said I had a problem with it. Making it a mandatory religious ritual is the part I have a problem with!

Hey man, it's better for them, what's the problem if it's mandatory? It's mandatory to vaccine kids against Polio because it's better for them. Jewish's made circumcition mandatory because oit's better fortheir people, accept it.

No pork: Pork is full of grease and the cause of triquinosis (Don't know the translation), it's better to avoid it if not properly cooked, something hard in the Bronze Age. For hygienic reasons mainl because the porc meat had conservation problems.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

No shrimps: Pure cholesterol, it's better to avoid them I hate shrimps!! I love them, but are unhealthy
No mixing of milk and alcohol: Very healthy recomendation to avoid acidoscis. Aghain for hygyenic reasons you could not stock dairy products with meat products , the bacterias developped uncontrolably together. Even with modern fridges it is better not to stock your Camembert with your paté Exactly what I was trying to say.
Circumsition: Healthy and clean, of course Rabis don't have to be so literal and do it with a bliss without anaesthetics, because when it was written there wsa no pain killers. but having a sacred ceremony in hospital does not make a serious ceremony , uh? This is my problem with it. Mandatory and barbaric conditions. So.... if the Government makes it mandatory it's ok, but if reloigion makes it mandatory is wrong even if it's also good for the infant? Where's your logic?

I think I have proved you that most of us are not irrationals. As you say later, your proofs certainly did not convince me!

Do you believe I'm irrational?.

The first agreement of the day.

So let's start with freedom of thinking!!!!!!

Well I hate that a professional who studies for 6 or more years has to work as a taxi driver in Perú and a soccer player who hasn't ended school gains 50 or 60 grand a month, but I'm sure that most people won't agree with us.

BTW: I can't live without my football (Soccer of course, the only football).

But nobody will ban football, this would be absurd (i mwish it would not be so absurd), I'm searching for an innocent (you mean a potential victim) Well, I was one who will buy my house and move.

If the problems don't avoid you, then you must avoid the problems. Agree!! Second agreement.

Sorry man, I've been in Varadero twice and visited La Habana, talked with their people and honestly I prefer Bush 1,000 times, Give me freedom or give me death!!!

Ok, blame USA, it's easy and popular. Cuba was a base ofthe USSR and a training camp for all the terrorists that been a menace for all Latin America, somebody had to do something.

Why don't you blame an archaic system that has proved to be inefficient, a system that doesn't respect human rights, a system that has to close frontiers not to avoid people trying to enter to the "paradise" but to avoid people from leaving?

the hotel, you can get sex with the most beautiful girls from the Tropicana for 20 bucks or less (Damn, the first time I went with my girlfroiend, what kind of a$$hole takes a lunch box to a dinner?) Prostitution is only a way to survive for them, but in so-called free countries most prostitutes are forced and enslaved and coming from Africa or Eastern Europe

In Cuba is the main modus vivendi of many women.

Ok, I deserved to be charged with 300 bucks (Well, Assist Card paid it), but I'm talking about dentist who don't clean the artifacts and use the same needle for 20 persons.

Something strange for a country that boasts having the best health system in Latin America.

So don't tell me things work (whoever said that???) You said oit, read your last post. , not even the so promoted health system, just ask yourself why people escape from the paradise in rubber boats, risking their lives?

AMISH:This is called distrust, if people hurts them, why should they trust people? Point taken

Third agreement

Please, use large fonts when you make my point

Hugues, I'm a lawyer and I kmust tell you that the Nuremberg trials were the most illegal parody of a trial, a politic farse where militaries from all the countries who won the war decided who was innocent and who wasguilty.

Of course i agree that it was necesary, somebody had to hang this bloody bast*rds, but accept this methods are common in all the systems.

But the rules of a trial and a peace convention are determined by the winner, that's the reality and we must accept it. A travesty of justice this one will be!!

Well, at least he will have a trial, more than what he gave to his opposers.

But at least they put their bodies in the fire line. How many AI activists have died or are in jails of non-democratic countries???

Honestly I don't know, but I doubt there are many, becausenobody wants scandals messing with a holy cow as Amnesty International.

Great logic they are proud to attack demotric countries but siolence about criminal systems, I'm loosing the little respect I had for A I

That's because you're too stubborn to blame the few fanatics and not the great majority ofthinking religious.

This is going in circles. Who in hell are the Atheists to force all te Reloigious people who are the great majority to live according their standarts?

Blame the fanatics both religious (zillions of those)and atheist fanatics(a few dozen on planetary scale).

Maybe because according to the the latest results of investigations AROUND 90% OF THE PEOPLE BELIEVE IN SOME SUPERIOR BEING.

This is anti democratic, the 10% of Atheists (Who have the absolute right to believe or not believe) want the 90% of believers to live according their standarts.

Most of us accept your right to live according to your ideas and logic, we ask that all of you accept our right to believe.

This is wrong, those who want to should be allowed to do so and those who don't should be excused.

Search for a good family for those kids, they will be better without them. Fanatics give bad name to religious people and also fanatic Atheists give a bad name to Atheists.

BTW: According to our Penal law, and USA's it's a crime to leave a child in a risk situation, probably it's also in Belgium, the Judicial power should make an example and send this a$$holes to jail.

See my remak above.

Sorry man, my grandfather was a Mason and he used to wear a ring and a pin on his coat, he would never reveal what the letters on them stand for, but he showed the people he was a mason.

I don't know if it's an urban legend but I read their signatures have a special coda.

I don't agree with this a$$hole's anti-semitism, but he made a great research. You know something, my girlfriend is Jewish (Not a practicant to be honest) but she's the first to accept some of this facts.

Now you're going to extremes BTW: The pentagram is an illusion for idiots searching for Satan, the compass and the triangle form a SIX poinst star, check the drawing and it's obvious.

But yes who cares about the contradictions of the masons?

I had to go through the motions until I was 8 and decided I would fake it and refiused to do my confirmation when I was 12. You see, everybody respected your choice, nobody placed a gun on your ghead and forced, patrents teach until one point, then everybody must make his own choice.

This was a real scandal in the grandparents and the schooling system. They blamed my parents for this and they were almost outcasted!! thank God (if you will allow me!) that we were in Canada by then. I think you're exagerating I haven't still done my Confirmation and never had a problem, but older generations are usually more radical.

Please answer my question!!! Do Atheists support a secret logia whos motives and agenda are unknown by the rest of the world?

I'm proud of my beliefs as you're are proud of yours.

BTW: There's no evidence of the non existence of God either, so science is of no use in this case. First try to prove it exist before we can shoot your theories to shreads!!!.

I don't need to prove his existence, I have FAITH, this is the merit, to believe in a fact is no merit.

Never saw Atheists as Pagans or Satan worshippers and you know that. I have been the first one to ask respect for all belifs and disbeliefs.

I find a lot of holes in your evidence and wrong methodology in many cases. You have studied argumentative debateds to University so you have an unfair advantage in dabate which I must reckon , you do quite well! I , on the other hand am self-taught and should've been an easy prey for the lions(pardon the pun).

Nope, I always avoided the argumentative debate courses (all elective) I used my free credits to study Music, Philosophy and Theology.

But being in politics in University hasgiven me a bit of experience.

I don't doubt for a second you're a moral being, but still I'm convinced of my beliefs. My goal was not to convert you! Us atheists do not resort to such things! We reason people!!

Neither do we, as you said Catholics are loosing people because we refuse to make door to door work.

Iván

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20250

Posted: December 17 2005 at 14:34

ivan_2068 wrote:

Sean wrote:

You can be stubborn as you want, but you admitted the existence of a soul, don't pretend to deny it. You are the one avoiding this as far as i can see it.

The soul does exist - maybe you and I do not agree on what a soul is. I first said it was the ultimate state of consciousness for a living organism and mostly for this extraordinary insane animal that stopped wanting to adapt to its surroundings and started modifying the surroundings to itself! A form of intelligence linked to the brain . The soul is a mix of hearts , brains, education , feelings and personnal experience and whatever else I forget about now, but it is hardly a transcendantal thing. But the irrational part of the brains (fears and anguish lead to supperstitions, and some shammans decided that "his " answers would actually give him an ascendence over the others. This was thousands of years ago and the first sdense of religion.

That's what you're asking for Amish? A live in jail without having commited any cryme. It is not my wish at all. They sort of create their own ghettos, which is typical of either disdain or persecussions. But this persecussions is caused by other religious currents and the rednecks belonging to those. I do not see where I , as an atheists, come into this!!! Except maybe as agreeing as a minor part of Civil Rights Watcher that they have a right to be as they wish to be. This is where atheists must intervene to stop religious currents to fight and eventually go to wars with each other. Talk about a choice: stuck between the Hammer and the Anvil... Situations like these the Atheists would gladly do without, you know!!!!

WOW you're a master in changing subjects, the American Indians was only an example I WAS TALKING ABOUT AMISH AND MENONITES AND YOU KNOW IT. Well you used an example and I used an anecdote to your example. You have done the same many times in this debate and I never complained about it. This aside was not intended to change the topic of the debate. Read back if you do not believe. What's with the exasperated tone here??? Had a bad day? This happens sometimes!!

You said that they should????? rarely leave their communities and I said that was an attempt to the free transit right. I do not really remember saying that they should not. I mostly find it sad that they do not come out of their villages. If they did , they might see how wrong they theological beliefs are. And they would adopt modern lifestyles and lose their members , which is whythey do not venture out and would rather not welcome strangers in their villages.

It's heathier and cleaner, so what's your problem? Who said I had a problem with it. Making it a mandatory religious ritual is the part I have a problem with!

Hey man, it's better for them, what's the problem if it's mandatory? It's mandatory to vaccine kids against Polio because it's better for them. Jewish's made circumcision mandatory because it's better for their people, accept it. But they reject someone who would not do it. Remember that all non-jews are refferred as Goys rather condescendingly!!!

Circumsition: Healthy and clean, of course Rabis don't have to be so literal and do it with a bliss without anaesthetics, because when it was written there wsa no pain killers. but having a sacred ceremony in hospital does not make a serious ceremony , uh? This is my problem with it. Mandatory and barbaric conditions. So.... if the Government makes it mandatory it's ok, but if reloigion makes it mandatory is wrong even if it's also good for the infant? Where's your logic? This should be done where surgical conditions are best and the rooms adapted to such things and also done by a doctor. A surgical operation is a medical act and a rabbi is not a doctor!!! this is practicing medecine illegaly!!! Like if was trying to play the lawyer , you would not appreciate it too much. at lmeast your corporation would sue my arse out of the planet if I tried!! Logic enough for you?

I think I have proved you that most of us are not irrationals. As you say later, your proofs certainly did not convince me!

Do you believe I'm irrational? In yopur religion beliefs of course you are!! No insult intended , of course!! But how can you pretend being a free thinker when your dogma and doctrine onlyallow so much space for reflections.

The first agreement of the day. We had a few before today , most notably around the hygiene things which are common sense anyway!

So let's start with freedom of thinking!!!!!! This is what we atheists have been yelling for the last 200 years!!!

BTW: I can't live without my football (Soccer of course, the only football). I used to play and follow Hockey in my Canadian youth and followed Cycling until the wide-spread and generalized doping scandals

If the problems don't avoid you, then you must avoid the problems. Agree!! Second agreement. Actually about the seventh if you count the ones you forgot in the early part of the post

Ok, blame USA, it's easy and popular. Cuba was a base ofthe USSR and a training camp for all the terrorists that been a menace for all Latin America, somebody had to do something. OK this is getting far fromour debate but I would suggest that you remember that before Castro was Battista and the man was a real arsehole and Cubawas a puppet US-pushed banana republc. The Castro Guevarra revoution was about spreading the wealth. And that meant to be communist and received Soviet help was the US's faults!!! another example of this sick US politics below

Remember Nicaragua and Sandinistas. The Sandinistas were anti-Somoza and the fact that Somoza was the CIA puppet but also a bloody tyrant, but going against US interests , made them evil. So , because of this , the Sandinistas had to accept help from Soviet. THIS IS A RESULT OF THE CIA AND THE NEED TO CREATECONSTANT GUERILLAS TO SPEND ALL THE ARMS STOCKS AND AMMUNITIONS.

Why don't you blame an archaic system that has proved to be inefficient, a system that doesn't respect human rights, (I do not remeber saying the opposite of what you state - in fact I agree with yuor points) a system that has to close frontiers not to avoid people trying to enter to the "paradise" but to avoid people from leaving? Yes, that border is difficult to enter also to stop ennemies that only have one objective , destroy it.

One of my co-workers in Volvo was Cuban and when he knew I was going to Varadero he gave me US$ 3,000 to give them to his mother, I saw how they live, they are starving, and think that this family lives in Varadero a city created for tourism, a city where all the beautiful people from Cuba live. Well Tourism from Europe is one of the few things that give them work since the US embargo is destroying everything else except cigars. I suppose you agree with that embargo?

To me this stupid embargo is the very reason why Castro regime still exists, because all out trade would've won over it!!! Sick US policies

In Cuba is the main modus vivendi of many women. Again if there was no embargo , work would likely be plentiful.

Ok, I deserved to be charged with 300 bucks (Well, Assist Card paid it), but I'm talking about dentist who don't clean the artifacts and use the same needle for 20 persons. Again the embargo!!! How can you not see that! Cuba's poverty is almost organized (and imposed) by the US to punish them to gain freedom from US stranglehold of akll central America; Dole , Chiquita ..... Banana replubics ,

Something strange for a country that boasts having the best health system in Latin America. well they have the best life expentancy and I believe this is confirmed by MSF

So don't tell me things work (whoever said that???) You said it, read your last post. , not even the so promoted health system, just ask yourself why people escape from the paradise in rubber boats, risking their lives? Who said freedom was Cuban? I do not agree with Communism because it denies the individualism of humans.

Please, use large fonts when you make my point I beliebve that this point was also shared since I scored it!

Hugues, I'm a lawyer and I must tell you that the Nuremberg trials were the most illegal parody of a trial, a politic farse where militaries from all the countries who won the war decided who was innocent and who was guilty. One could say the same thing in Irak, all of the people appearing will be guilty no matter the debates. Nothing changed sixty years later. Why even have the trials then. Lawyers being killed while defending Saddam do not seem to bother you to a greatextent. I'm sure it does, maybe you missed my point here.

Of course i agree that it was necesary, somebody had to hang this bloody bast*rds, but accept this methods are common in all the systems.

But the rules of a trial and a peace convention are determined by the winner, that's the reality and we must accept it. A travesty of justice this one will be!!Well, at least he will have a trial, more than what he gave to his opposers. There is a shortcut if I ever saw one. Not every opponant to the ass party got killed or jailed; They were tried and found guilty just like this new trial will find them guilty. Same comedy. I will not shed a tear over Saddam , but I am interested in hearing what he has to sayand everyone wants to stop him to say. dead lawyers means that soon or lmater no-one will risk himself to defend him and this isthe strategy. But the old wounded lion can still give a good match and will score a lot of points that will be automatically be disregarded and over-ruled. Fixed trial, even before it starts.

But at least they put their bodies in the fire line. How many AI activists have died or are in jails of non-democratic countries???Honestly I don't know, but I doubt there are many, because nobody wants scandals messing with a holy cow as Amnesty International. I believe a lot of AI activist died over the years!! Do not be fooled, the AI is one of the most hated ONG by powerful people on this Earth

Great logic they are proud to attack demotric countries but siolence about criminal systems, I'm loosing the little respect I had for A I . If you want the money to keep coming for what remains a noble and generous cause at the start, yu must show whatever progress you managed or else people will stop thinking it is hopeless! And if the hopedisappears than the cause is helpless.

This is running around in circles is it not?!?!

That's because you're too stubborn to blame the few fanatics and not the great majority of thinking religious. OOOOOHHHHH!!!!! I am the stubborn one here....

This is going in circles. Just as I said Who in hell are the Atheists to force all te Religious people who are the great majority to live according their standarts? The fact is that if religious signs do not disappear , we will go back to the obscurrantists dark ages with fights and disputes!! Atheist are thinking ahead!!!Come onthe only salute for peace on Earth is by forgetting religions; This has becomme an rear guard issue.

Blame the fanatics both religious (zillions of those)and atheist fanatics(a few dozen on planetary scale).

Maybe because according to the the latest results of investigations AROUND 90% OF THE PEOPLE BELIEVE IN SOME SUPERIOR BEING. Well in Belgium and France they represent aound 40% of the population , but the rest of them are fighting for supremacy and creating problems that only sensible people (Civil Rights Watchers , Free Thinkers and a few religous moderates as wellas Atheists) are out to solve. And most sensible christians in Europe agree that these religious signs should be taken away as a sign of NEUTRALITY!!!!! I have purposely avoided this word to avoid to sound like I am giving lessons, but here I think it is time I use it. This is also why the Red Cross has to change their insignia because of religion partisans. They cannot admit that neutrals can also worry about everyone; if peace is to be achieved through neutralty and removing religious signs to achieve that point, then thedifferent religions should accept that a crucifix taken away from a wall will not stop him from believing in his chosen divinity!! Is thar so hard to understand...

This is anti democratic, the 10% of Atheists (Who have the absolute right to believe or not believe) want the 90% of believers to live according their standarts.

Most of us accept your right to live according to your ideas and logic, we ask that all of you accept our right to believe. Read my neutrality remark, please I think I answered once and for all!!!

This is wrong, those who want to should be allowed to do so and those who don't should be excused. This is still a regular event in Canada and US I gather and imposed (since it is done over the interphone) by christians, to other confessions as well as non-confessional free thinkers

See my remak above. I erased the whole jehovah thing since we agreed even before we reached the subject

Sorry man, my grandfather was a Mason and he used to wear a ring and a pin on his coat, he would never reveal what the letters on them stand for, but he showed the people he was a mason. Well there was a power and people were impressed by this , so it was used as a sign of grandeur. But many were discarded from abusing that so-called prestige.

Now you're going to extremes Well I propose that we drop soon the Star Of David thing sine I really do not care that much about the issue, and we will again not reach an agreement even if we argue for the next century. But I did visit the Masonic temple of Paris , Brussels , Toronto and Montreal , because they do organize open days and they are very proudto explain and show but only to a point.

I don't believe it's necesarilly wisdom, only free thinking without any restriction, because religion is a restriction to our behaviour, but of course gladly accepted by our own free will .. but force-fed to kids from the moments of Baptism!! Parents are entitled AND FORCED ACCORDING TO LAW to provide an education to their children in better if in their faith and culture, you can't change that, what do you want that a Catholic educates his kid as Moslim????? You could, for one, put them in a neutral system and send them tio Sunday school once they are old enough. Do you not see that this baptism is some sort of superstition, the child must be blessed by god , or else he is not protected and can be claim by satan or other religions.

I had to go through the motions until I was 8 and decided I would fake it and refiused to do my confirmation when I was 12. You see, everybody respected your choice, WHAT???? Read the reaxctions below and I have not lmentionned the pressure I was under for months to make me change my mind - which only fuelled my decision even more. nobody placed a gun on your head (every thing but that!!! thanks for my dad for chasing them whenever he could) and forced, parents teach until one point, then everybody must make his own choice. I cannot be sure about this , but muy guess is that the Belgian and Canadian clergies probably concerted about my case and my two brothers (who are equally happy atheists)

This was a real scandal in the grandparents and the schooling system. They blamed my parents for this and they were almost outcasted!! thank God (if you will allow me!) that we were in Canada by then. I think you're exagerating Hardly, my mother's father tried to stop my parent's marriage so that my mother had to menace to elope. My father (atheist by choice since about my age) agreed to go to the church to get it over with - and then after az good fiveyears , they started to talk, but my father was always warry of his father-in-law although I must say that the childrens going to Catholic school did ease things a lot until my decision, to which my father did nothing for or against - I stress this a lot. I haven't still done my Confirmation and never had a problem, but older generations are usually more radical.

Please answer my question!!! Do Atheists support a secret loggia whose motives and agendas are unknown by the rest of the world? No we do not supoport them and we could not care less about their so-called agendas; One thing you do not understand is that those guys are more about doing business (entrepreneurs and liberals - or libertarians if you wish) and have no plans to take over the world. You read too many fiction books also! after Vat-fi , then Massons-fi!!

Atheists and free massons have been objective allies but not much else, as far as I know.

BTW: There's no evidence of the non existence of God either, so science is of no use in this case. First try to prove it exist before we can shoot your theories to shreads!!!.

I don't need to prove his existence, I have FAITH, this is the merit, to believe in a fact is no merit. Running around in circles!! I believe the end of the debate is nearing since we are only repeating ourselves

Never saw Atheists as Pagans or Satan worshippers and you know that. I have been the first one to ask respect for all belifs and disbeliefs. You knew what I meant , I was really talking of a sect or Free Massons

Nope, I always avoided the argumentative debate courses (all elective) I used my free credits to study Music, Philosophy and Theology.But being in politics in University hasgiven me a bit of experience. I am also not as inexperienced as I just painted myself. But a lawyer makes debatinf part of their living!!

I don't doubt for a second you're a moral being, but still I'm convinced of my beliefs. My goal was not to convert you! Us atheists do not resort to such things! We reason people!!

Neither do we, as you said Catholics are loosing people because we refuse to make door to door work. Circles!!!!!

Iván

HUGUES

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

tardis

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Posted: December 17 2005 at 15:15

Does anyone else get dizzy in this thread?

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
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Points: 20250

Posted: December 18 2005 at 06:28

tardis wrote:

Does anyone else get dizzy in this thread?

Actually if you can believe, it takes me over 90 minutes per reply: to read first (and after two orthree hours wait) then reply - first make sure you do not edit/delete things inconsiderably and then type out my answers incoulours and others. I am not a fast typer - one finger and have problems because I switch from a american KB (at work) to a french KB(at home or at the phone-shop), so although one is white and the other is black, I must make proofread myself and correct the many typos dueto the KBs.

So by the end of a thouroughly enjoyable posting, it does feel good to push the Post reply button

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Manunkind

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Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
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Points: 2373

Posted: December 18 2005 at 10:43

The topics for the next few dozen pages:

Is Buddha ruining emo?

and

Is satan ruining black metal?

"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Prog Folk

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Points: 20250

Posted: December 18 2005 at 16:20

IVAN,

I will be at my mother's in France this week, so I will maybe have tougher access to the web until Saturday, but just in case, check if I give you an answer.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535

Posted: December 18 2005 at 17:34

Ok Sean, I promisse that after Christmass you'll have a reply, don't bellieve fir a second I'm giving up, there's a lot of material to work.

Yesterday I was answering your post and after one hour there was a short blackout and I lost all that I had written, it surely takes a lot of yime this thread, but I don't regret.

I won't rest until you become a priest.

Iván

ulver982

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Joined: June 07 2005
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Status: Offline
Points: 266

Posted: December 19 2005 at 20:26

Yes Lyrics To Be Added To New Testament

February 19, 1997 | Issue 31•06

VATICAN CITY—In the first-ever union of the Word of God and the Synthesizer, the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals voted unanimously Monday to incorporate the lyrics of Yes into the New Testament.

An airbrushed Italian painting (circa 1974) depicting Christ as He is laid to rest in and around the lake. The revised account of the Passion, found in the Book of Bruford, is one of many changes to be found in the new, Yes-inclusive Holy Bible.

The resulting new Bible, the Revised Standard YesScriptures, will replace the Jerusalem Bible of 1966 as the standard accepted record and vehicle of divine revelation.

"Let us rejoice in this momentous occasion," said Pope John Paul II in a special service at St. Peter's. "And let no man be unmoved, remembering the words of Jesus: 'In and around the lake, mountains come out of the sky, and they stand there.' Amen."

In addition to a number of new sections, including the four-part Book of Bruford (a. Cord of Life; b. Eclipse; c. The Preacher; d. The Apocalypse), the revised YesScriptures will feature a dazzling, airbrushed gatefold by artist Roger Dean.

Perhaps the most significant change is a more complete history of the life of Christ. In the revised account of Christ's temptation by Satan, the Lord and Savior is brought to a mountaintop overlooking a pastel landscape filled with exotic, half-melted rock formations and wispy, cloudlike trees. Christ, though tempted, "can see all good people turn their heads each day, and, so satisfied, He continues on His way."

Christ's rejection of the Lord Of Lies is then followed by a 16-minute keyboard solo by synthesizer maestro Rick Wakeman.

"God's word is not always clear, and neither is the path Jesus wants us to take in life," New York's Cardinal O'Connor said of the new scriptures. "But when Jesus tells His disciples at the Last Supper to eat of His body and drink of His blood, for 'He can feel no sense of measure, no illusions as He taketh refuge in young man's pleasure,' I as a Christian take comfort in these words."

Despite being called for by pro-Yes movements within the Church for decades, the decision marks the first official Catholic acknowledgement of Yes-inclusive language and Yes-positive Biblical interpretations as actually being the Divine Word.

"The Holy See's decision is a victory for progressives everywhere," said Jethro Tull frontman and longtime Christian Ian Anderson. "The updated Bible passages reflect the tremendously significant role that the concept album plays in our modern lives."

The Catholic Church is not the first religious sect to embrace progressive-rock reform. Since 1974, Reform Jews have, as part of Rosh Hashanah services, sung verses from The Book Of Genesis Featuring Peter Gabriel. For years, Unitarian educators have taught the works of Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, including Brain Salad Surgery.

Though the majority of Bible scholars are welcoming the new YesScriptures, a small minority stands strongly opposed.

"The messages in the YesScriptures are rarely clear and almost always of questionable morality," said Michael Fox, chair of Yale University's Divinity School. "While Christ's message may seem obvious when, in Howe 3:16, He sayeth unto James the Lesser: 'Owner of a lonely heart, yea, much better than thee, O owner of a broken heart,' it is possible that this passage contains intended irony on the part of the Savior, and that the verse actually signifies a message of profound sympathy for the broken-hearted heart-owners of Mankind."

"The Word of God is the rock upon which we have built the Catholic Church," Fox concluded. "It is not Fragile."

Improvement makes straight roads, but the crooked roads without improvement, are roads of genius.

Silence is the music of the future.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Prog Folk

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Posted: December 21 2005 at 10:31

ivan_2068 wrote:

Ok Sean, I promisse that after Christmass you'll have a reply, don't bellieve fir a second I'm giving up, there's a lot of material to work.

Yesterday I was answering your post and after one hour there was a short blackout and I lost all that I had written, it surely takes a lot of yime this thread, but I don't regret.

I won't rest until you become a priest.

Iván

See you after X-mas!!!

For the black-outs or losing an over-long and almost finished post, I sympathise!! This has happened to me countless times

Mozart was a free masson , and so was Leopold II of Belgium and both were confirmed catholics although they did believe in screwing almost anything that moved.

As for being a priest, I am my own priest and I preach tolerance and neutrality/ there fore: ATHEISM

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20250

Posted: December 29 2005 at 07:00

IVAN,

Wanna fight?????

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword