IS GOD RUINING PROG?

I dont think so you write what you feel you need to write about, what you think is importent, My band we dont persoanally write about religion but some Dream Theater songs are very religiousy. In a band writing lyrics you write about what inspires you, flows, interests you, and what you feel the song is about and if thats religion then so be it.

 Well, that about wraps it up for God

"The Babel fish," said the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, "is small, yellow and leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe.  It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it.  It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with.  It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them.  The practical upshot of all this is if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language.  The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

The argument goes something like this:  "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

there are fanatic Religious people, and they scare the sh!t out of me, as there are fanatic Atheists with a clear agenda that also scare the sh!t out of me. There are many more fanatics on the religious side than on the atheists side (outside communist pogroms)

There are as much fanatics everywhere Sean, you must accept (As I said before) that many people use the name of God to convince a lot of stupoid innocent fanatics that they act in the name of God and that their authority comes from the creator.

I gave you the example of the Ku Klux Klan, a bunch of retarded rednecks who were white sheets and say they are superior to everybody (Also hate Catholics by the way), they don't act in the name of God, they really don't believe God admits to kill anothe human (Read the 10 Commandments please), they just use God's name for tgheir purpose.

Now we have the White Supremacy, another bunch of rednecks who say that God was white...............Bull Sh!t, if they were true Christians, they should know Jesus Christ is a Jewish and a pure descendant of the line of David, so he had dark skin, that's a scientific fact.

They don't only use God's name for they purpose, but they show us they are a bunch of ignorants who claim to be superior and are nothing but a bunch of white trash (By the way, and just in case someone reads this, I'm white because my mother is Italo Scottish so I have nothing against white people, only against white trash).

Many of my friends are Jewish, and one of them told me that he was afrain of Orthodox Jewish (Those who never cut their side hair or shave).

There's people with culture on religious side also that see the danger of fundamentalism. On the other side this intollerant religious rednecks (for example) will find anything to be intollerant.

Take the Ku Klux Klan, they say they talk in the name of God, Bull sh!t, nobody can kill an innocent for his skin collor in the name of God, they only use this excuse of a sectarian and a racist God to support their madness.

NO ANSWER HERE???

Yep, some religions have accepted their fault, I can only talk for Catholics because I'm more informed about us, and John Paul II asked public excuses for the mistakes commited by the Church during the Inquisition. Asking forgiveness is one thing and a first step, but do not blame victimized currents for being wary of the changes either!

Ok, I admit that, but early Christians were throwed to the lions also, today a whole bunch of missionaries are killed every day in the poorest countries of the world, but we are not afraid of the rest of the world.

. The Civil rights watchers are to garantee that atheists can walk around society without going in front of an inquistion and end up on a bonfire courtesy of clergymen

Oh please Sean,this guys auto proclaim him the voice of everybody, and that's not true, this a$$holes are the same guys who are asking for the freedom of Abimael Guzman who was the head of Shinning Path and killed 35,000 innocent peasents, not rich men, not politics, just peasents. OK for the peruvian situation which I am not familiar but elsewhere the CIvil rights are still a majority of of religious people

No my friend, the biggest institution of Civil Rights in the world is Amnesty International, which is managed not only by atheists, but people with Communist tendencies.

They are often very hard with democratic Governmemnts and very permissive and soft with communist countries or terrorist groups.

BTW: Look at this site: http://www.atheists.org/ counts with the support of all Civil Right Watchers. They are trying and admit they want tobturn USA into an Atheist country, isn't this intollerant???????

This are the guys who are asking for the release of Lorie Berenson, a USA citizen who entered illegaly to Perú with a convict terroris from Panama and was found in a terrorist safehouse with the maps of the Peruvian Congress and with fake Id as a member of the press.

They forced Peruvian Government to have a new trial and we accepted, even the whole trial was transmited on TV, but this Civil Right watchers are talking in the name of the terrorist and not for the victims.

I wonder what would this guys said if a Muslem was found with plans of the USA Congress hidding in an Al Kaeda safehouse.

Just take a look at this nice forum where most of us are friends, when Pope John Paul the II died, some of us expressed our sorrow and grieve, but there was an a$$hole expressibg hapiness for the dead of this good man calling him a mother fu**er. This is intollerance. Agreed!!! so this is one intolerant atheist (or maybe he was a protestant or a Scientologist) and millions of religious zealots who are bigots and intolerant themselves

You only need to accept there is wrong in both sides, that's all. I never said the opposite but your replies implies that the wrong is on the non-religious sides

No, I always saidit comes from both sides.

Have you ever seen someone starting a post sayin Atheists are stupid? But I seen a lot of posts attacking religious beliefs and started in each and every case by Atheists. Those threads were never started as such if I remember well but always by some restrictions from one side or the other. Be it for religion or against it!

I agree, but read them carefully, I never seen a thread that started saying Atheists are evil or Atheists are intollerant, but I have seen many on the other side. That is because there are a lot more intolerant persons on the religious side wanting their doctrines applied to everybody

But don't blame us all, there are a lot of Atheists doing the same, in both cases it's wrong.

. Catholics not considered christians?!?! I guess you got me completely confused! I (and almost everybody I know - atheists included) consider catholic church as the base of christians beliefs and anyone that thinks of christianity thinks of the vatican and the pope. I believe even the hardest of protestant will feel offended in his christianity if the pope is attacked!

There are at least 100 web pages that explain why Catholics are not Christians, all of them signed by Reverends or institutional Christian Churches.

Take the self proclaimed Born Again Christians[

http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm

Some are even more radical:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm

Some of them even accuse us of cannibalism because we believe we eat Christ's  body during mass.

Read the "self proclaimed Dr"  Bob Jones Jr. books (From the Bob Jones University) speaking about Catholicism, just a bunch of irrational insults.

[http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/02/28/catholic.html

Another good 100 of pages (At the least) mention the Pope as the anti Christ, all are signed by institutional pseudo Christian churchs. OK I will not go in the debate!! But anyone telling me - an atheist - that catholic christians currents  are not the base of christianity is simply stupid and not worthy of the debate!

Yep unbelievable, anti historic, absurd, but yet they proclaim so, all those pages are charged with hate against us (Say US because I'm a proud Catholic who never tried to convince anyone to join our faith).

I can't do anything against any person from another religion doing something wrong Well catholics could excommunicate the Opus Dei , this guys are frigging nazis IMHO and not just IMHO

I knew this was comming, I don't agree with the Opus Dei, but not because of their strong beliefs and faith, but because I think they are sectarian and elitists.

I studied in a very fancy Catholic School (Because it has a solid education), but I'm not a rich kid, my father was broke and fell into a terrible depressiomn and later surmenage, and my mother had to work 14 hours a day to pay the tuition because she believes a good education is basic, so I was tempted by the Opus Dei because I was a good but rebell student, they focussed in my school because they wanted the elite, and even when I was 12 or 13 I rejected that.

During a short period I joined Sodaltium Chritiane Vitae, even more radical than the Opus Dei, but soon I noticed they were a bunch of fanatics, so I quit (Hey, I'm a Catholic but love the pleasures of flesh also ).

I also admire their strong beliefs and blind conviction, even if I don't share it but you can't say they are a criminal or violent organization, either.

,Who can understan you? If some religious people do door to door work, is wrong and if Catholics don't do it, that's the reason why we are loosing people. Better throw us to the lions, because there's no way we can win.  Yes catholics are in a no-win situation

True.

 I think you misunderstood me on this!  I said that those not going to church being outcasted as non-believers not passive christians. If vatican were to pursue passive catholic (non-mass goers) then they would lose everything! Hope I made myself clear on  this now

I give you half point for that  How magnaminous of you for this m'lord!

Yes, that's part of Christian faith

But as you accepted before, this minorities are always the most active ones, and not even you can deny that Atheists have the absolute control of Civil Right watchers.!?!? I will deny this vehemently! Only maybe in Europe are the civil right watchers maybe a small majority atheist!! Are you naive enough to believe that clergy would allow such delicate matters slip away from their grip??? Of course not! They have the majority in almost every country especially in the US

Please the clergy has almost no power today, they lost the Pontificial states, the Ambroosian Bank is a joke, world leaders don't respect or are afraid of the Church any more. All Europe is minly Atheoist or Agnostic, USA is mainly Protestant, but so divided in small churchs, that no one has real power.

The first enemy of Civil Rights Watchers is Religion, they base their attacks against formal religions, which is a stupid choice, because the sect alternative is far more dangerous.

Last month Florida Courts decided (Because of the pressure of Civil Rights Asociations) that it was legal to burn or skin alive animals to practice santeria because this guys believe it's part of their cultural inheritance. I suppose you speak of Native Americans not atheists, at best annimists or pagans

No. I'm talking about santeria, central America (mostly Haiti and Cuba) practice that includes  sacrificing animals, what has been declared legal due to the pressures of Civil Right watchers. You meam VOVDOO people!! Are they not a cross of annimism and christians beliefs!! religious matters my friend!!! Thanks for the point you just handwed to me! But next time in a gift wrap and ona silver plate!!

Seems you need a small class of history. Vodoo or native form of Santeria and Animists never blended with Christianity, the used Christianity to cover their practoices.

Take Perú, the Inka culture had a strong Heliocentrist theology, the Spanish came and declared all religions illegal, so the natives used the Catholic hollydays, for example, they said they were celebrating the Coropus Christi in june, but as a fact they were celbrating the Inti Raymi.

They made great celebrations for Christmass, but really they were making the harvest feast, the same happens with ceklts in Ireland or Animism in Central America.

But that's not the point, any civilized church and society will reject the massacre of animals for religious purpose, but Civil Right watches say the animists are entitled toi burn or skin living animals because it's part of their cultural inheritance, that's the wrong thing.

 

Who gave the Atheists the monopoly of morality? It is about time somebody recognize that atheists are moral people too! we are constantly villified by religious fanatics

I recognize thay CAN BE moral but I don't believe they have the monopoly of morality. Neither do the religious but they infer that constantly!!! Please do not deny this!!!

Both sides fight for control, and that is the truth.

. OK so you apply this notion to your person and eventually to your family - therefore your private sphere which is what religion principles are about: your own private sphere. Leave the pro-choice person whose body is concerned!! This is their body , their lives and their decisions!! NOT yours or the clergy!!!! This is tolerance!!!!! What is so hard to understand???

Not to my personal sphere, I have worked in several projects and participated in many programs, I believe we're not only talking about the woman's body, we're talking about another person too. The foetus cannot survive on its own and hospitals do not count! therefore only the mother counts!! It is her life and hers only!! But men will not allow this!!

This is theme for another debate, probably as interesting as this one, but not today.

Our Constitution clearly says that the non born is considered born since the moment of conception  in order to protect his rights. Quite a confotable anti-debate position uh! and very religious!!

I'm a religious person, but also a lawyer, the Congressused scientific evidence to reach this conclusion, of course can be debated, but again, this will be too much for today and the patience of the forum members who probably aren't enjoying tghis debate as us.

Every day people have sex without protection because it's easy to abort This is bullsh*t!! if you think it is easy and pleasant to abort think again and from a woman's point of view!! And think that where it is not legal they will abort , anyway and with very dangerous means for their health . Most women would prefer not getting pregnant if they had a choice  (this is costly way of burth control), but in 95% of the case it is the man who refuses the condoms -  for God's sake use a fu**ing condom instead of killing an innocent.

No, it's not pleasent, I know that, but it's easier and cheaper than raising a kid. The cheapest birth control is condoms but men will not wear it. Surely you'll agree that women do not want to get pregnant if they do not want kids . But men are the ones wanting control of women so they can have a maid to their house! and 95% of the time the woman is left alone to deal with the unwanted kid on both parts!! how christian!!!

Oh please, don't make stereotypes, sex a business of two and women are more independant each day, thanks to God.

There's nothing that I would want less than a non thinking wife, I love to have somebody who always challenges me.

But last year a Civil Right Association was sued because they sterilized women of the Pueblos Jovenes (Ghettos) without their consent. How sick !!

It was done with the consent of the Government and the support of some civil rights watchers who believed they were doing good to this people.

Peruvian civil Government declared abortion illegal. Some democratioc rule! How many women's lives will be ruined because they had an abortion anyway ? and for those not having had the choice , their lives  will be ruined by the children they did not want or were not ready for it!

Our studies have proved that in countries where abortion is legal, the number of illegal and unhealthy abortions doesn't go down, because even when it's more dangerous, it's cheaper. funny how in Europe where abortion are legals , churches are upset that abortion clinics are used normally and do not meet that much success but the illegal abortionist have all but disappeared. Abortion are health insurance reimboursed therefore quite cheap. But repeated operation are generally not allowed!

Well, there has to be some limit, or not? One abortion may be necesary, but if the same person comes many times, this changes into a criminal practice.

No, it's not hard to understand, I'm not responsible for what some part of the clergy believes, there are a$$holes on both sides. Nobody ever said you were responsible but starting out acting against Opus Dei is one thing every catholic could do if they were serious about this issue! Ex-communication of the extremist would be a strong message and restore credibility!!

I even wrote articles about my differences with them, but still I admire their blind faith in some degree.

There's something aditional that even you must accept, Catholic Church is the target of many other groups, especially some "so called" Christian denominations, so a strong ideology defenders may be necessary, they have a lot of wrong things, yes, but they have some other that are gopod.

But there are great people on both sides, I learned about Darwin and evolution in a Catholic School, also learned about the determinist doctrines of criminology (Lombroso) in the Catholic University, both doctrines (even when the second one has been abandoned) are against the theory of the church. I hope you are not an Ïntelligent Design"refutting Darwin just to fit some old sacred text!! Please reassure me you are not an obscurantist!! Please God, not You!!

I believe in evolution, but I also believe that God is the force that started and guided evolution.

BTW: One of my mentors in Prog, was a priest from my school, Brother Joe Sheehan, one of the most open minded priests I ever met. A Maani disciple, then!!!

This guy is incredible, I haven't seen him for 20 years becausehe's working in Tanzania, but he was abrely 10 years older than us, he used to be a rock musician, but also a very intelligent an well prepared guy.

I went to tell him when I thought that  my girlfriend was pregnant (My father was sick and this are not the things a kid usually talks with his mother, and he was very tollerant, more than many so called friends even when he was against abortion clearly.

Not saying that Sean (And you know) but the lack of moral values is a problem everywhere.

I prefer a Jewish, Mormon, Buddhist or even Atheist moral value than the absence of values. Wow that was really tough but I finally got you to admit that!!! Are you still alive after it!!!

I never said the contrary.

Isn't the lack of moral values one of the main causes of criminality? I do believe that the mafias are religious and often supported by the clergy!! sorry you set yourself upfor that one!! Look at Italy for example

You saw The Godfather too many times!!!  Modern mafia (The cartels, Chinese, The Yakusa and Russian Mafia) have no relation with Church.

WHY YOU AVOID THIS PART?????

Holy God!!! you have to blame us about racism also!!!! Excuse me, but the Xenophobic extreme right in Europe is extremely religious and the extreme right movements in every country of the world are all very religious!!

That's an absurd simplification of things, racism is in our nature, some of us fight againt it, others don't, religious and Atheists the same, there are a lot of Atheists racists by the way.

Not only. it's also the responsability of authorities not doing their jobs, I don't praise for a dressing code, that would be stupid, but why collors of gangs should be allowed?? They are about to be also forbidden inm school grounds as are piercings and outrageous make-up. Civil Rights are also about decency and can be conservative too

It was about time!!!!!!!

I don't worry about decency only, that's a subjectuive value, I worry about provocation.

No my friend, it's harder and uncool to be a religious person all arroound the world. Say that to an atheist in Iran , Saudi Arabia , United States etc...

Well, I have a friend who played professional soccer in a club of Saudi Arabia, and was forced to pay an econimic penalty for making the sign of the cross before the game, intollerance doesn't make differences between Atheists or Religious people. AMEN!!!

Yesterday's night I was with him at the first month celebration of my nephew, he's going to be the Godfather, and he told me a lot of really scary stories about his adventures in Saudi Arabia.

He's probably reading this thread today.

I had to cut a lot, because we passed the limits of space of the server, but onlñy avoided those points in which had agreement.

HUGES

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

Each time we have less disagreements and less colors  So lets focus in the few we still have: and start using italics:

ivan_2068 wrote: NO ANSWER HERE??? I had not answered because I cannot stay polite when I speak of KKK, these guys revulse me. Southern Man !!! Neil Young!! We agree again No, I always said it comes from both sides. soon we will have no more arguments since we can agree! We agree again, this is getting boring Yep unbelievable, anti historic, absurd, but yet they proclaim so, all those pages are charged with hate against us (Say US because I'm a proud Catholic who never tried to convince anyone to join our faith). I was brought up a catholic (but I started asking questions to myself when I was almost forced to invent sins, faults and other wrongdoings  at confessions at the tender age of 8), so I understand full well the catholics under attack. Comes with being the #1 religion in the world! You made a good point, always the biggest is harrased by the smalest groups, that's why some fanatic Atheists are also a pain in the a$$. I can't do anything against any person from another religion doing something wrong Well catholics could excommunicate the Opus Dei , this guys are frigging nazis IMHO and not just IMHO I knew this was comming, I don't agree with the Opus Dei, but not because of their strong beliefs and faith, but because I think they are sectarian and elitists. I was nice enough I think to have held that Opus Dei argument so long!! I knew sooner or later you would, but I believe you'll also understand that being attacked by each and every Christian group, Catholivc Church needed a stronger arm, and I mean stronger in the doctrinarial aspect, because until today Opus Dei has caused no violent act. There are a lot of things about them I don't like, but there are a few I admire I studied in a very fancy Catholic School (Because it has a solid education), but I'm not a rich kid, my father was broke and fell into a terrible depressiomn and later surmenage, and my mother had to work 14 hours a day to pay the tuition because she believes a good education is basic, so I was tempted by the Opus Dei because I was a good but rebell student, they focussed in my school because they wanted the elite, and even when I was 12 or 13 I rejected that. If one day I decide to have kids , I will put them to Catholic school because they do have superior work ethics and care enough about the kid to have him do the work! Discipline never killed anyone. Blind Faith...........however Good choice., and even you have admitted there's no tendency towards fanatism in modern Catholic Church compared to other faiths. During a short period I joined Sodaltium Chritiane Vitae, even more radical than the Opus Dei, but soon I noticed they were a bunch of fanatics, so I quit (Hey, I'm a Catholic but love the pleasures of flesh also ). I also admire their strong beliefs and blind conviction, even if I don't share it but you can't say they are a criminal or violent organization, either. They (Opus Dei) scare the sh*t out of me just as Al Qaeda does! Please, now you're going too far!!!!!! There's no violence in Opus Dei doctrine, yes they can be elitist but that's not a crime against human law (Even when it's a crime against divine law). ,Yes, that's part of Christian faith  Will you turn the other cheek too? I'm a Catholic, not a fanatic, sometimes you have to turn the cheek, but others you have to answer with a solid kick in the ba**s. Please the clergy has almost no power today!!! You are saying that without seeing from our side! I'm talking from a realistic point of view, the fact that some politics use the costume of religious people to gain approval, doesn't mean all the religions accept this. In Perú, for example there's a current of Catholicism called Theology of Liberation, with which I don't agree (Neither the Pope), but this guys are declared enemies of the Liberal Governments. The Problem is that they are becomming instruments of the most radical commusit positions. , they lost the Pontificial states, the Ambroosian Bank is a joke, world leaders don't respect or are afraid of the Church any more. All Europe is minly Atheoist or Agnostic, USA is mainly Protestant, but so divided in small churchs, that no one has real power. I think you are strongly underestimating the dangerosity and staying power of churches! Even 90 years of communism did not get rid of madmen in Russia. There are Rasputin admirers if you can believe it!! Again, lunatics exist everywhere, which sane person can believe that a self proclaimed son of God aske them to commit massive suicide? Who can adore Rasputin except an absolutev wacko. Seems you need a small class of history. Vodoo or native form of Santeria and Animists never blended with Christianity, the used Christianity to cover their practoices. Let's say that in order to gain control of natives in West Africa and Carribean Islands (were voodoo is the most in practice) , the missionaires took the party of accepting ancient traditions and played on them. This was another wau of insuring conversion! If they had not adopted that, they were not followed and massacred! No, the missionaries fighted years centuries against what they call paganism, and payd withtheir lives. Take Perú, the Inca culture had a strong Heliocentrist theology, the Spanish came and declared all religions illegal, so the natives used the Catholic hollydays, for example, they said they were celebrating the Corpus Christi in june, but as a fact they were celbrating the Inti Raymi. Well forced conversion do have the reverse effects to!! We agree again, but thanks heaven we are free to believe or disbelieve today, sadly some Governments are taking an Atheist orientation lately instead of remaining neutral They made great celebrations for Christmass, but really they were making the harvest feast, the same happens with celts in Ireland or Animism in Central America. But that's not the point, any civilized church and society will reject the massacre of animals for religious purpose, but Civil Right watches say the animists are entitled toi burn or skin living animals because it's part of their cultural inheritance, that's the wrong thing. the Christmas turkey and the easter lamb! The end of moslim ramadan were a sheep is sacrified and eaten etc... Don't compare, there's a difference between eating meat of an animal sacrificed by profesionals (or at least experts) and throwing a living chicken into the fire or skinning a black cat alive. Both sides fight for control, and that is the truth. I believe atheist are looking for a counter-control!! Difference!! No my friend, they're asking for more each day, please go to the Atheist site I linked yesterday, this guys are as scary as the KKK. This is theme for another debate, probably as interesting as this one, but not today. Yup but what is happening in Poland is sickening!! Well decades of forced Atheism have to create a reaction, that I can't justify, but surely may understand. I'm a religious person, but also a lawyer, the Congressused scientific evidence!!! Please!!I am a scientific person and I can tell you I can fit almost any study the way I choose to have it turned or worse !! If iI cannot than I do not publish it!!  Then non on us can assure our interpretation of the evidence is the correct, so let each person and/or country to decide which side to choose. Oh please, don't make stereotypes, sex a business of two and women are more independant each day, thanks to God. two person a dominator and its victims!!! If women are almost free in US and Europe (this is debatable since motherhood is a strong hindrance to freedom), this is hardly the case in South America , I'm sure you will agree Not in all South America, for example in Lima lives 50% of Peruvian population, and women are not sexual slaves, probably in the forgotten towns, but this must change, the problem is what change option we must follow. There's nothing that I would want less than a non thinking wife, I love to have somebody who always challenges me.  However most males do not see that way, you'll agree!! Wrll, women have their own fantasies also, but in most cases you're right. But last year a Civil Right Association was sued because they sterilized women of the Pueblos Jovenes (Ghettos) without their consent. How sick !! It was done with the consent of the Government and the support of some ALL civil rights watchers who believed they were doing good to this people. Well, there has to be some limit, or not? One abortion may be necesary, but if the same person comes many times, this changes into a criminal practice. I do not see a crime there! but in the end using that a bith control technique is not only dangerous but also costly  - real abuse cases are very rare IMHO. mainly prostitutes whose clients are refusing condoms Sorry my friend, but abortions are 100 time more dangerous and expensive than birth control techniques, a condom costs 50 cents and if you don't have money, they are given for free in some places. Prostitutes that accept sex without condom have to worry less about getting prgnant than about AIDS,. Hepatitis B or any sexual disease. I even wrote articles about my differences with them, but still I admire their blind faith in some degree. Still I wish I could believe as blindly as them. There's something aditional that even you must accept, Catholic Church is the target of many other groups, especially some "so called" Christian denominations, so a strong ideology defenders may be necessary, they have a lot of wrong things, yes, but they have some other that are good. I already agreed that catholic church is a lesser evil than sects!! what more do you want??? I ask you to accept that: Religious moral "per se" is good, That God is not guilty of fanatism That men who claim to know what God wants are the ones we should criticize. I believe in evolution, but I also believe that God is the force that started and guided evolution. As long as you do not refute Darwin , we agree! those wanting to change evolution to fit a biblical text full of metaphors are sick and should get immediate treatment for the tumour inside their skulls!!! I have to accept scientific evidence, but the priest who taught us about Darwin Theories was the one that said this evidence was not incompatible with the idea of a creator God. I never said the contrary. Why are we having this debate then!! Other than for full enjoyment of it (you will notice I did not say the hell of it) Maybe because one or two out of place words, thanks God  we're rational enough not to start a cruzade. You saw The Godfather too many times!!!  Modern mafia (The cartels, Chinese, The Yakusa and Russian Mafia) have no relation with Church. WHY YOU AVOID THIS PART????? No relations but when churches see that they have to deal with them to keep their power they do compromise with them!! You still believe in consiglieris and capos di tuti capi.   Mafia today is more violent and absolutely anti religious, it's even worst that the Italian mob. That's an absurd simplification of things, racism is in our nature, some of us fight againt it, others don't, religious and Atheists the same, there are a lot of Atheists racists by the way. Please!!! in Western Europe the church goers are more prone to vote extreme right! This fact is well documented. However when things go wrong such as in France, the victims whose cars burned will certainly add their votes to get rid of the riffraff (racaille was the word used by sarkozy)!! And what? I always voted  for right oriented candidates, this doesn't make me less human or a bad person, I have a clear ideology, that's all. BTW: Great part of Europe countries are xenophobic, without any help from church, again don't blame us for everything. I don't worry about decency only, that's a subjectuive value, I worry about provocation. reverse provocation is also a worry , this is what this veil-wearing thing is all about in western europe. 20 years ago , you never saw one single islam veil because the kids were very content not to wear it! This is also provocation. The problem arose from integrism!! Don't get your point here. He's probably reading this thread today. So I am fighting against the trinity, here!! The Lawyer , the Priest and the football player!! on top of the holy father!!! I am holding out pretty good I think!!! Nope, he'll probably be on your side if he wasn't a Catholic, he got sick and tired of this fanatism, he came back to Perú when he was 28 and still could play 4 or 5 years more receiving a lot of money. I had to cut a lot, because we passed the limits of space of the server, but onlñy avoided those points in which had agreement. HUGUES Iván HUGUES

Iván

 

ivan_2068 wrote: Hemispheres wrote: GODS RUINING EVERYTHING I honestly find your statement contradictory: If you believe in God, how can you blame him for our acts or because of our wrong perception of his will and acts? If you're an atheist (As I believe you probably are), how can a non existing being ruin anything? In any case your statement lacks of logic. Iván

THIS IS TRUE

ivan_2068 wrote: Tardis, I rarely seen such a respectfull and civilized thread between two persons with opposite perspectives. Probably is getting long, but I believe Sean and I have been presenting different arguments for an important issue. I've seen similar threads ending with insults long before this point, Sean and myself have keeped a respectful and hope intelligent discussion.. Now, you don't have to be punished, just avoid clicking the link to this thread, nothing as easy, it's just free will? Iván BTW: I never seen a threar in which most of the participants have accepted the other peoplé's position, Sean and I have done it repeteadly and the last post by Hemispheres also. Isn't this small achievement valid enough to justify all this thread, isn't tollerance and mutual respect something we rarely find? If we can agree about Religion (Soccer or Politics), we can agree about anything!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Ivan, I do not have time today , but do not think for a second I am giving up this argument.

 

I am enjoying it too much for that!!!

BTW, I did take a peak look at this atheist site. As usual leave it to the Americans to make atheism radical!!! I can swear that the vast majority of atheists are not like those guys!! but i guess if that theu must be that way just not to be blown off the map in the US. And atheists represent 2% of the US population , if even that!

I do hope you make a difference between atheism and free masonry who are almost a sect of themselves but you can be of any conviction you choose! They can be quite conservative and super-liberal at the same time. Quite confusing, with their secrecy/obscurantism and their link with the Templiers thing!!!

Edited by Sean Trane

Great!!!! I was missing this debate

Hugues wrote:

I will also edit a few text !! ivan_2068 wrote: Each time we have less disagreements and less colors  So lets focus in the few we still have: and start using italics: Quote: ivan_2068 wrote: You made a good point, always the biggest is harrased by the smalest groups, that's why some fanatic Atheists are also a pain in the a$$. The ones you point out are the US armed Atheism front that makes atheism a religion!! But they forget something!!! Atheism is not a religion!! You see, the problem is caused by the fanatics on both sides, the fanatic religious and the fanatic atheists, extremist and fundamentalist positions are wrong. I won't blame intelligent and honest Atheists, I blame those religious like fanatics (Even if this sounds as a contradiction). I knew sooner or later you would, but I believe you'll also understand that being attacked by each and every Christian group, Catholivc Church needed a stronger arm, and I mean stronger in the doctrinarial aspect, because until today Opus Dei has caused no violent act. I do believe that they assassinated a lot of persons and even poisoned a few popes (JP I for example) Still too influenced by The Godfather or even worst by Og Mandino, John Paul I died probably of natural causes, he had a severe heart condition. It's a use in the Vatican that after a long Papacy (Like John Paul II or Paulus VI) they elect an older and often sick Pope to create a transition between two long terms. Paulus VI made a lot of changes with the Vatican II (started by a transitional Pope like Saint John XXIII), he allowed to celebrate mass in local languages and allowed to print Bibles Massively. So they elected an old man as Pope to calm the waters, but they never thought his health condition was so bad. The rest are only gossips from people who love to invent plots, because it's mysterious and sells more to say that there are murders in the Vatican. Please, now you're going too far!!!!!! I knew I was going all little far with this statement but in terms of blind faith they are just equals , but are certainly not open terrorists, even if they have got an armed branch for actions.. Honestly, I have my dobts towards the Opus Dei, as a matter of facts, our Cardinal is the first Opus Dei Member in the world with such a high position in the Church, and he was involved with Fujimori in the develation of the hostage crisis in the Japanese Embassy. I'm not against the solution, it was a success (Despite the factthat Fujimori is a criminal for other reasons), the Government must protect us froim terrorists,  hostages were released with only two casualties (One hostage who recieved a bullet when hidding in a closet and a brave liutenant who placed his body in front of a hostage to recieve the bullet) from 200 (according to Israel standarts 25% of lives lost is an acceptable margin), but the place of a priest is not in violent solutions. It's also wrong that a Cardinal supports a corrupt Government as Fujimori - Montesinos.  There's no violence in Opus Dei doctrine, yes they can be elitist but that's not a crime against human law (Even when it's a crime against divine law). I believe you underestimate Opus Dei's desires to defend the faith at all costs! they have resorted to murders!! Them and their predecessors have actually killed some currents of thinking in sake of the unity of the church. (Templiers, Cathars  and other discovering other texts that could cast some doubts on the sacred texts). Templars were fanatics excomunicated for their crimes in Holy Land. Remember that the christians sacred texts have all been dramatically rewritten , interpreted, incorrectly recopied as well as written only four centuries after the prophet's death (I can only consider him a prophet since he is certainly not my messiah), so those texts are anything but pure! The Dead Sea Rolls have proved that the Gospels are very accurate, the differences between the ones accepted by the Chiurch and recent discovered roles are minimal, except in the Mary Magdalene and Saint Thomas Gospels that admit that Mary Magdalene wasn't a Prostitute (Neither Jesus Christ wife as  the Da Vinci Code implies ), but she was Jesus favorite and most intelligent apostle. The Church didn't accepted this because of the discrimination against women some centuries ago and I agree this is wrong and should be changed, and I'm sure some day will be. This is why Vatican is always on shaky grounds!!! And they get very defensive about their evanlical texts (remember the catholics authorities took most christians for imbecils with the little angels , devils trills, St Peter at the gates of heaven , apparitions of the Virgins - the most laughable one is the revelation of Fatima in Portugal 40 or 50 yearts ago - they could not come up with any revelatians after the 50 years moratorium) etc....now they must the consequences of disbeliefs Let me inform you something, because I have studied Canonic Law, the process of admitting a miracle like Fatima is very complex, the church names a Bishop who is called "The Devil's Advocate", normaly is a member of the Sacred Congregation of  Faith", this man tries by all means (As a DA) to prove the Miracle is false. It's a very complex trial, and if the Church accepts it, I honestly believe because most cases are rejected. Let me give you an example, in Italy there's  a famous anual miracle, the blood of San Genaro turns in liquid one determined day of the year and millions gather to see the miracle. The Catholic Church refuses to accept this miracle for centuries, because the Devil's Advocate made a strong case. Every year many countries and local priests present files for new Saints or Miracles, more than 99% are rejected by the Vatican. The actual Pope was the Chief of this Congregation and he is one of the most intelligent and well prepared men in the world, not as charismatic as his predecessor, but highly intelligent. In Perú, for example there's a current of Catholicism called Theology of Liberation, with which I don't agree (Neither the Pope), but this guys are declared enemies of the Liberal Governments. The Problem is that they are becomming instruments of the most radical communist positions. Of course!! We atheist loath sects (we prefer more organized religions to sects) but let's face it all beliefs of a super-natural powerful being as a weakness - a sort of superstition. Sadly this is not a sect but a current of the Church, it was created by Peruvian communist priest Gustavo Gutierrez (Communist priest, the concept itself is contradictory) and has famous followers as Ernesto Crdenal in Nicaragua who was reprehended by John Paul II in front of the world for accepting a high political position in the Sandinist Government. Again, lunatics exist everywhere, which sane person can believe that a self proclaimed son of God aske them to commit massive suicide? Who can adore Rasputin except an absolutev wacko. The problem is that Rasputin was a religious character and  he was never excommunicated even after his death. Please Sean, almost inmediately after Rasputin's death by Yussupuv, came the October Revolution, the Czar and his family were assasinated and Russian Orthodox Church was silenced for 61 years. I'm not sure, but I believe Rasputin was not really an Orthodox monk or maybe  he was excomunicated, not sure though; he was some kind of hermit who claimed to talk in the name of God, but had a lot of women in the nights and drunk as a camel. The fact that he was orthodox does not change things one bit because Orthodox and catholic faith are really kinked and should be the closest allies. This did not stop the Serbians orthodox to slain and invade Catholic Croatia! Things are changing, some Orthodox Cardinals are being allowed to participate in the Conclave (Not sure about the translationof this word), both churchs and probably Lutheran will rejoin very soon. Something that frightens some Chtristian groups, because without the Lutherans, whoo startedthe separation, they will loose a lot of support. By the way the Croatian invation is politic and carries a lot of hate among two different ethnias that comes from hundreed of years ago, don't blame religoion for this. We agree again, but thanks heaven we are free to believe or disbelieve today, sadly some Governments are taking an Atheist orientation lately instead of remaining neutral !  I beg you pardon, there are religious political parties in power always favoring religion matters even sometimes undoing things the previous government just did!! That is wrong, The Vatican II concilium clearly stated that our Church priests should avoid to participate in politics, since 1978, the military Catholic Chaplains (Another word I'm not sure about, the translation in Spanish is Capellán) don't hold a military rank, so they should never carry a weapon or accept orders of the military. Don't compare, there's a difference between eating meat of an animal sacrificed by profesionals (or at least experts) and throwing a living chicken into the fire or skinning a black cat alive.  You spoke of sacrifying , not me!!! So I could not resist this unfair pique!! Well, that's a linguistic problem, we call "sacrificar animales" or Sacrifice  animals to the act of killing animals to be eaten. Well decades of forced Atheism have to create a reaction, that I can't justify, but surely may understand. You calk gay bashing , outlawing abortion justified. If you do not like abortion fine , don't do it!! but do not force your private feelings onto needing women!! We don't bash gays, we don't admit the mariage of two persons of the same sex, which is different. Well, I'm against most cases of abortion (Rape, therapeutc abortio when the mother's life is in risk and probably is the baby is going to be born with a painful and beyond cure illness) and the law of my country adopts the same position, so it's not a conflict for me. Not in all South America, for example in Lima lives 50% of Peruvian population, and women are not sexual slaves, probably in the forgotten towns, but this must change, the problem is what change option we must follow. According to the macho and catholic way, women belong barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen and this is expected by many catholic males and is awaited from from Catholics females! I do not think this stereotype is quite history yet , even if it is in regression! The macho thing is ethnic and cultural, not Catholic, there are a lot of machist rednecks in USA who barely believe in anything, Sorry my friend, but abortions are 100 time more dangerous and expensive than birth control techniques, a condom costs 50 cents and if you don't have money, they are given for free in some places. I agree but it is the men who do not want to use the condoms and the woman have only one choice then then, abort once thet are pregnant, Believe me most of them could do without being pregnant and wished their partner wore a condom!! It's in them to stay firm, not all men are savages and animals. Recently I took the case of  a young woman who was forced by her husband too have sex without condom using force. I achieved that the guy was convicted  for rape inside marriage and spent a year in prison befire released on parole, you must know that there's a code between prissoners. the rapists have a real hard time in jail, as the joke says, they can't afford to drop the soap in the showers. Prostitutes that accept sex without condom have to worry less about getting prgnant than about AIDS,. Hepatitis B or any sexual disease. Again do they have a choice in many countries. They get beaten up if they do not go with clients who do not want condoms!! This has nothing to do with religion my friend. I ask you to accept that: Religious moral "per se" is good, I can grant you 1/2 of a point Thanks your honor!!!! That God is not guilty of fanatism But those moderate do nothing to stop fanaticism Sadly human laws protect this fanatics and their right to act in such a way, candidates protect this fanatics because they also vote, police can't do anything against them unless they make a violent act, and then is too late. How can you blame us? Our hands are tied by human right watchers who created all this protection for fanatics as a side effect of their fight against formal religions. That men who claim to know what God wants are the ones we should criticize. This is certainly what Atheism does!!! Catholic Church also does that, some Protestant religions should thank the Vatican for taking so much time to admit people to read the Bible, if they had accepted this two or three centureis before, today the number of sects and small chuchs would be multiplied by an exponential factor. I have to accept scientific evidence, but the priest who taught us about Darwin Theories was the one that said this evidence was not incompatible with the idea of a creator God. I can fully accept this and I believe this ios the very sensible solution!! I believe rational more than sensible. Maybe because one or two out of place words, thanks God  we're rational enough not to start a cruzade. Another catholic/christian concept I do not really appreciate!! It was another time and another environment, it's hard to judge it from our perspective. Christians were throwed to the lions, witches (Well, so called witches) were burned by Catholics, Protestants and Atheists, Nazis burned people half a century ago. Humans are violent, and any excuse is good to justify crimes, religion, racial purity or any madness you could imagine. You still believe in consiglieris and capos di tuti capi.   Mafia today is more violent and absolutely anti religious, it's even worst that the Italian mob. Ever since man existed and shamans also (using superstition to arrange powers to themselves) , these last ones always managed to form an strange couple with brute force (this meant the bigger brute being the chief or the king)  to create a power tandem. Don't change the subject, but again as I told you the people that hold the power use anything to save their jobs. We had a war with Chile and they took part of our territory 120 something years ago, normally there are not problems, but now we have a candidate who is being agressive against Chile just to gain votes from our patriotic feeling. This is stupid. And what? I always voted  for right oriented candidates, this doesn't make me less human or a bad person, I have a clear ideology, that's all. BTW: Great part of Europe countries are xenophobic, without any help from church, again don't blame us for everything. Do you not think the religion increased the sense of community and excludes the ones that are not their own?? I don't think so, our Church is UNIVERSAL, so it would be wrong to segregate other religions. BTW: I studied in the Catholic University (The best by far in Perú) with a lot of Jewish people, I was candidate with a Jewish friend who is now a Congressman, so at least Catholic Church is against this. OK , Please read me out carefully!! This is not easy to explain without being wrongly attributed racism or xenophobia !! Fourty years ago all the moslims coming to Europe did it because of a hope of better life and mainly money!! This is called economic refugees even if they were allowed in because there was a lack of man-power. for the first thirty years , there was no problem and you never saw veiled women (or very rarely) in the streets or at school or even in public feasts!! Only in the last 10 years have this gotten a problem!! (And just by a stroke of luck when moslim integrism statred really its upswing!!) And this because around 80% of women are forced to wear it (in order to stop male abuse) and the rest of them are forced-fed religious morals!! This is mainly true for the third generation from immigration. What it comes down to really is forced marriages with outsiders (from Morrocco , Turkey, Pakistan etc) so they can come to emigrate to Europe - Slavery if you ask me!! - so religion is  the tool used to control these girls!! Things change, the anti Muslim atmosphere existing in the world now, the Neo Nazi movements  (Not religious BTW) in all Europe (including skinheads) create a consiousness of  racial  individuality in this people. Agressive and coward attacks of stupids who blame a whole race for crimoinal  acts of a few, create reactions, Muslims are prouder than ever of their inheritance and make stronger their beliefs as a mechanism of self defence. Again, religion is not the cause or the tool, religion is the excuse, if there was no Religion they would find another excuse. But sometimes those girls are pushing it to provocation a bit too much by hanging on to the veil because it provokes reactions/irritations to christians!!! So the nastyness is really coming from different religious currents and the only way to have peace for governments or authorities is to simply bans ALL religious signs and have a basic laic morale taught in schools . This is valid for schools but will also be someday for workplaces!! That would be inconstitutional in any civilized country, nobody can ask me to take the cross I have on my neck (Of course is very small and ususally insoie my shirt or T-Shirt), it's part of my faith and even of my identity and inheritance. Last week be both agreed that it was terrible that my friend was forced to pay a penalty in Saudi Arabia for making the sign of the Cross before a game. Do you want to be as sectarian as them? Aren't we trying to be better than that? Then we must accept different beliefs and cultures, especially in USA, a nation formed by inmigrants from all over the world. Now being 100% honest, I believe the treatment recieved by Muslim women is medieval, but it's their way, it's their culture and inheritance, let them evolve at their own speed, as long as they do it inside their countries When your ancestors came to Peru, they did everything to adapt and succeed in their new land. Why could they not do like the Italians , Polish , Portuguese migrations masses and adapt? Religious matters , Right???? Perú is a different world, most Arabs here are second or third generation and most of them are Catholic the vastmajority doesn't want anyrelation with fanatic posittions, my group in the beach is full of Jewish and Arab descendants, and they don't have a single problem being friends (Well most Jewish and Arabs here  have something in common, a lot of money), so this is another reality.   HUGUES Iván   HUGUES

Iván

 

Edited by ivan_2068

RoyalJelly wrote:

Please, nobody quote that last, endlessly long fanatical diatribe in colored type, it's getting me dizzy. Just two point of contradiction: which "decades of forced atheism" are you talking about?

The period between 1919 and the fall of the Soviet Union, where religions were banned, Jews shot, orthodox Priests sent to Siberia or killed by a totalitarian Communist Government that considered Religion a thread against their power.

That was forced Atheism and lasted 61 years.

RoyalJelly wrote:

I had the opposite problem, being force-fed religion in Catholic school, it took a long time to come around to a healthy agnosticism all by myself. And also, I live in Switzerland, where condoms cost more than a dollar each.

You were not forced to anything, your parents (Probably) selected a Catholic school for you, they are responsible for you as a minor..

But there are thousands of not Religious schools where you won't find horrible Religion, they had the chance to choose a Catholic. Jewish, Presbiterian or Laic school.

In the Soviet Union your parents didn't had that chance, they only taught Atheism and Marxism in all the schools.

Catholics schools are created and supported by the Catholic Church for kids from Catholic families, what do you want them to teach? Atheism, Judaism, Presbiterianism???

But you should thank your parents, for the small price of two or three weekly hours of Rekigion, a preayer in the moirning  (I also studied in a Catholic School), maybe one mass per week if not monthly, you got the best education availlable, because worlwide the best schools are the Catholics ones.

Just compare, a friend went to the Soviet Union to study Medicine in the Patrice Lumumba University, he came here after two years without having seen a corpse or went to the Hospital, but with 4 semesters of Marxist theory.

So please, don't say you were forced, if you believe it was so terrible, ask your parents why they selected that school, most surely they were thinking in your best interest.

One question: If condoms cost more than one buck, ahow much does a decent abortion costs? I'm sure that there are plenty of places where prostitutes and persons without money can get free condioms, even here where people doesn't have to eat you can get free condoms or anti conceptive pills in some hospitals.

Unless you want in glowing collors or speciall features

What are the risks in using condoms and what are the risks of suffering an abortion?

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

ivan_2068 wrote: RoyalJelly wrote: Please, nobody quote that last, endlessly long fanatical diatribe in colored type, it's getting me dizzy. Just two point of contradiction: which "decades of forced atheism" are you talking about? The period between 1919 and the fall of the Soviet Union, where religions were banned, Jews shot, orthodox Priests sent to Siberia or killed by a totalitarian Communist Government that considered Religion a thread against their power. That was forced Atheism and lasted 61 years. RoyalJelly wrote: I had the opposite problem, being force-fed religion in Catholic school, it took a long time to come around to a healthy agnosticism all by myself. And also, I live in Switzerland, where condoms cost more than a dollar each. You were not forced to anything, your parents (Probably) selected a Catholic school for you, they are responsible for you as a minor.. But there are thousands of not Religious schools where you won't find horrible Religion, they had the chance to choose a Catholic. Jewish, Presbiterian or Laic school. In the Soviet Union your parents didn't had that chance, they only taught Atheism and Marxism in all the schools. Catholics schools are created and supported by the Catholic Church for kids from Catholic families, what do you want them to teach? Atheism, Judaism, Presbiterianism??? But you should thank your parents, for the small price of two or three weekly hours of Rekigion, a preayer in the moirning  (I also studied in a Catholic School), maybe one mass per week if not monthly, you got the best education availlable, because worlwide the best schools are the Catholics ones. Just compare, a friend went to the Soviet Union to study Medicine in the Patrice Lumumba University, he came here after two years without having seen a corpse or went to the Hospital, but with 4 semesters of Marxist theory. So please, don't say you were forced, if you believe it was so terrible, ask your parents why they selected that school, most surely they were thinking in your best interest. One question: If condoms cost more than one buck, ahow much does a decent abortion costs? I'm sure that there are plenty of places where prostitutes and persons without money can get free condioms, even here where people doesn't have to eat you can get free condoms or anti conceptive pills in some hospitals. Unless you want in glowing collors or speciall features What are the risks in using condoms and what are the risks of suffering an abortion? Iván

I wonder how many dead babies could have cured cancer by now, could have been another Gandhi by now, could have been... period. The risk of suffering an abortion is psychological more then anything else (without arguing if this act is moral or not). In The United States of America approximately 80% (Stats from '89) of women who go through the process of abortion regret it later in life OR feel they have killed a human being of some sort. Risks may also include exclusion and shunning in social and cultural situations after those in ones life discovers who has had an abortion. There will always be those who do not see the life and death of a fetus as a choice. I haven't even mentioned what abortion does to the majority of industrialized nations. Population decline through the last half of this century are estimated to take place dramatically in the majority of caucasian based nations, due to such things as sterilization, birth control, and abortion all while old people remain alive in overwhelming numbers. I remain at the conclusion even though fragile and dying, elderly do have the right to live - what with them still being people and such, something else must change over the next few decades as so few young citizens cannot take care of so many old citizens.

And somehow all this time I refrained from bringing up religion as I do not practice.

Ooooh, a thread on religion!!! 

My family is very religious and I've found that in some cases (not all, mind you, but in a lot of them), religion is very limiting because it discourages discourse.  You attempt to ask questions about religion and religious people will be VERY dismissive and criticize you for "daring to ask such a thing."  It's very frustrating, at least in my case.  You are supposed to follow because it's SUPPOSED to be true.

Personally, I think religion should be a very PERSONAL thing.  It should be a belief system that should not be advertised or forced upon others.  Those that attempt to "preach to the unconverted" are reprehensible.

These days I subscribe to science and natural law.  A lot of religious people will claim that science is not infallible, but that's the point... it is a self-correcting and always progressive to new realms with every new discovery of man.  We always know more about the world around us because of the achievements of men who are not afraid to ask questions and learn more about our environment.  The problem with (some) religions is that they are less eager to accept radical change, but without radical change we would still think the Earth is flat and that it is the center of the solar system. 

Gallileo was punished because he dared to commit "blasphemy" by studying the heavens.  What's blasphemous is to live your life without constantly asking questions about your surroundings and, yes, about your religion too.