IS GOD RUINING PROG?

This is relatively easy to answer. The fact that god exists in some people's mind is making them enforce their beliefs (and so called morals) to others and calling non-believers evil etc.........

A non existing being according to your beliefs, can not ruin anything, it's men percepton and human acts what ruin things. You can't blame the ghosts or the fairies for anything. But the very idea of this ghost of god existing is ruining many lives

Then you're giving me the answer, is the wrong idea about God, the righteous perception of some people, not God. We will not agree on this isue of course , but the very fact that people think there is a God and he supervises life and the planet is the problem

Maybe a problem for you, but any person's personal belief or disbelief is no problem for me, this is called TOLLERANCE Tolerance should a a two way notion, the reverse from religion is hardly the case!

So it is relatively easy to say that God ruins everything because thereare some people who believe in it and try to enforce their beliefs on everyone else

Then blame intolerant or fundamentalist men, not God. Of course you are right about this but the other believers do nothing against those extremists. Expulsion or ex-communication could set out a clear message 

What do atheists do about those fanatics who attack religious people !!!!!(outside communist country , I do not remember atheists ever aggressing religions), All arround the world religious people are attacked, maybe not physicall attacks as in Communist Countries, but there's a tendency to see religious people as innocent idiots Although I would not agree to this per se there is a ring of commom sense to that statement , unfortunately for centuries those innocent idiots massacred those who did not agree with them

there's good and evil everywhere. Normally the fanatics are the less, but sadly are more active than the normal people. Agreed fully

Catholic Church has done their part, fanatics as the ultra orthodox Marcel Lefebre have been excomunicated, but we can't deal with all of them as Atheists can't deal with their own fanatics . Again I have never heard of atheists fanatics (outside the communist regimes), please enlighten me on this situation!!

Please, there are a lot, civil rights societies whose attacks to religion are evident and clear, everyday the freedom to express your beliefs is considered illegal in more places, and as you admit later, this Asociations are managed by Atheists with a clear agenda against Religion. The Civil rights watchers are to garantee that atheists can walk around society without going in front of an inquistion and end up on a bonfire courtesy of clergymen

Just take a look at this nice forum where most of us are friends, when Pope John Paul the II died, some of us expressed our sorrow and grieve, but there was an a$$hole expressibg hapiness for the dead of this good man calling him a mother fu**er. This is intollerance. Agreed!!! so this is one intolerant atheist (or maybe he was a protestant or a Scientologist) and millions of religious zealots who are bigots and intolerant themselves

Have you ever seen someone starting a post sayin Atheists are stupid? But I seen a lot of posts attacking religious beliefs and started in each and every case by Atheists. Those threads were never started as such if I remember well but always by some restrictions from one side or the other. Be it for religion or against it!

Have you ever seen Catholics doing Catholic Rock or preaching door to door Every frigging saturday and Sunday we get christians knocking on our door to convert everyone they can a lot of them are christians sects (Mormons , Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses just to name those I SAID CATHOLICS, most Christian denominations don't consider us Christians, so don't change the subject, we know that Mormons, Scientologists and Jehovah's Witness are famous for their door to door work, and it's a fact that for most religions, this is wrong. Catholics not considered christians?!?! I guess you got me completely confused! I (and almost everybody I know - atheists included) consider catholic church as the base of christians beliefs and anyone that thinks of christianity thinks of the vatican and the pope. I believe even the hardest of protestant will feel offended in his christianity if the pope is attacked!

, have you seen Jewish doing so? No,Actually since the Jews are the elected people by God , they do not want to convert anyone! Exceptions that confirms the rules Well, you already have Jewish, Catholics, you can have Greek Orthodoxs, Lutherans, Buddhists, etc, I believe most religions don't agree with this kind of work. But it still gets done and no-one stops them from what I gather!!

 then don't blame all the people and much less blame God.

Religious people cannot actually come to grips you can be someone great and even more moral than their own beliefs.

Real religuious people don't judge others for their beliefs (oh no!?!? this is constantly done but you do not realize since you are on the "good " of the fence!!!),

I'm not on the good side, I'm not as faithful to my doctrine as I should be, because I also have some doubts. I actually think this honours you! Questionning this forced feed faith is a sign of intelligence. I use the words force feed because they induce this to you as you are a kid , so you never actually question it

Maybe it's because nobody forced me ever, freedom of choice and liberty is the base of a Catholic life. Actually I agree strongly with you on this point - I was broughtup as a catholic and they are not good at retaining the sheeps inside their pen and this is why Catholics are loosing ground to all other denominations or even to other religions. and generally when one leaves the catholic circles , it seems to be for 85% a more integrist doctrine! It certainly has me worried!

you can be an atheist, a Mormon, a Jewish or a Muslem and still have clear values. Of course you can , but those not flocking under the churches or mosque are seen as evil in most places! Because the ones obligeing to this feel that others not doing ir is simply not acceptable; This is wherethe freedom of choice and acceptance come in!

Most Catholics believe we can praise God anywhere, being good cirizens, parents or even professionals. I rarely go to Church, and never felt rejected by my community. If they were they would be losing you altogether right?

For God's sake, you just said that those of us who didn't went to church were seen as evil and rejected, and now you use my argument to say they can't take the risk to loose us. I think you misunderstood me on this!  I said that those not going to church being outcasted as non-believers not passive christians. If vatican were to pursue passive catholic (non-mass goers) then they would lose everything! Hope I made myself clear on  this now

Fanatics are the ones who give real religious people a bad name.Totally agree, which is why the moderatye religious should (must) be concerned first with this issue and 95% of the timethey do not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sadly in this society, freedom is over-priviledged  ??????????over anything, there's freedom to be fanatic and protected by the laws. Nobody acted when the Davidians where preparing their madness, because they never did something illegal.

Yes freedom is over priviledge to the point that it ceases to be freedom and turn into abuse. Each time the police wants to search any of this lunatic prophets like the ones in Wacko, Jim Jones or the Davidians, the Atheist Civil Right watchers, jump and shout they have the right to believe in what they want, but when there are massive suicides or sexual crimes, they blame all religion. I believe that the civil rights is cerainly not protecting them , in this case the constitutional amendment of freedom of cult is cited to protect ALL religions as well as atheism. This is certainly not an atheism idea to want to protect sects  (we actually think sects are much more dangerous than organized religions which DO serve a purpose) and if I may , atheism is a small percentage of Americans , therefor inthe US they are certainly not the dominant force of civil rights!

Last month Florida Courts decided (Because of the pressure of Civil Rights Asociations) that it was legal to burn or skin alive animals to practice santeria because this guys believe it's part of their cultural inheritance. I suppose you speak of Native Americans not atheists, at best annimists or pagans

But I'm sure that the same day they find some of this sects also make human sacrifices, they will blame all religions.

Very comfortable position.

Most cilvil right watchers are  Atheists by the way.And why do you think that is ????  Could you trust a religious with this? Look at the religious party now in power in poland> outlawing gays , abortion etc.... Can't trust them because they want their PRIVATE BELIEFS to be applied to everyone! 

Who gave the Atheists the monopoly of morality? It is about time somebody recognize that atheists are moral people too! we are constantly villified by religious fanatics

As you say Communism is atheist and, most communist Governments are as corrupt as the liberals (Not talking about Communist doctrine, even when I have clear disagreements with this ideology). I never defended communism although it is in principle a very generous doctrine. It simply cannot work since it ignores on special human trait of character: individuality. The wish for someone to be himself and d a distinct person from his neighbor.

Please, Atheists create their assoiciations and they run them, that's the only truth, I can't trust a bit in most of this groups, all have a clear agenda 

I can trust an honest and sincere person despite his/her beliefs or disbeliefs, again that's the main principle of tollerance. See we can agree on some things besides prog!!!

By the way, against my Catholic principles I admit artificial methods of control of conception.

But I'm against abortion except in case of mother's life risk, rape and one or two more especific situations, but not for religious motive, because I believe it's a bloody crime. OK so you apply this notion to your person and eventually to your family - therefore your private sphere which is what religion principles are about: your own private sphere. Leave the pro-choice person whose body is concerned!! This is their body , their lives and their decisions!! NOT yours or the clergy!!!! This is tolerance!!!!! What is so hard to understand???

Every day people have sex without protection because it's easy to abort This is bullsh*t!! if you think it is easy and pleasant to abort think again and from a woman's point of view!! And think that where it is not legal they will abort , anyway and with very dangerous means for their health . Most women would prefer not getting pregnant if they had a choice  (this is costly way of burth control), but in 95% of the case it is the man who refuses the condoms -  for God's sake use a fu**ing condom instead of killing an innocent.

Peruvian civil Government declared abortion illegal. Some democratioc rule! How many women's lives will be ruined because they had an abortion anyway ? and for those not having had the choice , their lives  will be ruined by the children they did not want or were not ready for it!

I do not know what is so hard to understand here to what I am saying, here. I am sure you actually DO  understand , but you cannot admit to it being right!

I believe you're the one who refuse to accept there's good and bad on both sides. Actually Ivan I DO think there are many good sides to religion but unfortunately the clergy on thinks that their doctrines is the only valid one! Is that so hard to understand??

And an atheists is somehow more superior since he observes the society morals without believing into a hypothetical supernatural being judging you after death for your acts , even when he knows  that judgement does not happen and hell does not exist. The atheist is not following rules because he is afraid of God and other stuff.

 He acts as he believes without someone telling him about those morals on a fear basis. Because the religions menaces you of hell if you do notlive by the standards

Most of the people I know act for personal conviction more than by fear, our Church teaches us that if you don't believe your acts are correct per se, there's no merit in your actions. I'll give you half a point on this that this hell-enforced and law abiding morality is dictating the personal conviction of religious persons

Lets accept your thesis that religious people have moral conduct because their fear of hell (even when it's not true in most cases), don't you prefer a religious morality than no morality? Again there is only one choice to your question: a religious morality or none!! Jeeeez !! ooops!! sorry!

Isn't the lack of moral values one of the main causes of criminality? I do believe that the mafias are religious and often supported by the clergy!! sorry you set yourself upfor that one!! Look at Italy for example

And I thought only religious people are intolerant, so Atheists are now superior to believers. I knew that this would irritate you (but I hoped you would see what I meant by that so I outline it again in my text so you read it again and really think of it) , but just imagine that atheist are dealt that very same superior sh*t in all parts of the world; this even goes down to witch hunts and grand inquisition.

Thre are all kind of Inquisitions today, some even created by politics and Atheists. Please enlighten me!!

There's racism, discrimination, attack to each and every Moslem (even when most of them have absolutely no relation with terrorism) agreed!!! but this racism is mostly coming from ancestral foreigner fears and reinforced by Christians fearing the countries taken over by a majority of of non-christians and therefore them becoming the minority!, the goverment blame inmigrants of the lack of employment instead of their own incapacity of creating work sources, there are witch hunts everywhere.

 persecutions of atheists does exist you know!!!!!!!!!!! Even in the States , you are seen as a person of lopwmorals when you do not beliueve in a god; It does not matter which one but you must believe in something or else you are suspect!!!!!!!!!! I do not knowif religions are aware of this outcasting.

How can you complain? Today is illegal to talk about God in schools only because it is creating tensions between currents and risk of riots,

Please, there are tensions for one thousand reasons, including, sex, race, ethnicity, criminal behaviour, this guys forbid the word God, but they allow students to use the colors of their gangs, isn't this stupid??? of cousre it is. But if you follow the news , young students will have to go back home to dress up properly , not displaying too much skin, low waistline pants getting slowly illegal in schools out of morality. Yopu seem to do a gigantic shortcut by saying that atheist are of the laissez-faire type and that the morale laïque is non-existant! this is hardly the case. The lack of morale is not due to atheism but to the parents not holding up to their responsabilities!

but there's no crime in talking about Atheism Please do not mix atheism and laic moral, they are much different although they do join in cases Who pursued this decision? The civil rights asociations managed by atheists as you already admited.

. It's harder to be a religious person than a cool Atheist. You might just have gotten another half-point but this is valid only for Western Europe countries

No my friend, it's harder and uncool to be a religious person all arroound the world. Say that to an atheist in Iran , Saudi Arabia , United States etc...