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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator 
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
 Topic: Are We Too Generous?Posted: June 09 2011 at 05:23 |
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I'd expected no less from you, actually
 good ol'Mike
actually the Gnosis project is counting very much on actualization of ratings : it's a fairly closed circle (roughly 100 highly-committed slightly RIO-slanted raters able to rate at least 2500 albums) that go back to re-rate once they done explorations on a given artiste
despite the closed amount of raters, the ovrall ratings (three types of averages available - including a standard deviation - and very recently a tagging featured added) constantly change, and that's actually interesting - despite the site not having a memory to keep track of the evolution of the ratings (it might be quite interesting to monitor the rating updates, especially with new releases!!).
Well, I've been blown away at first listen on some albums in a given context (at friends or in a store), but NEVER managed to recapture the feelings afterwards. It's precisely the repeated listens that will give a more accurate feeling and rating... But it's also the motivation or wear & tear of time that ensures the "perenity" (all things considered, uh??) of the rating
Obviously!!! never take a rating of a review for more than just indication
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: January 06 2008 Location: London, UK Status: Offline Points: 617 |
Posted: June 08 2011 at 09:03 |
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Personally, I think there's two factors at work here.
1: Motivation to buy new. If you think about it, who are the people most likely to rush out and grab a band's latest release as soon as it comes out? The people who are already fans of that particular group, of course! And so it's only natural that their reviews will tend towards the higher ratings - well, unless a band tries out a different approach with a new album which alienates a large proportion of their existing fanbase, which does happen, but I don't think it happens so often as to throw the trend off. 2: Motivation to review. It's always easier to push yourself to write glowing praise of an album you really, really love - the urge to share the joy with people is a powerful one. (Likewise, if you seriously dislike an album that could also be a good motivator to warn the world about it...) It's a bit harder to motivate yourself to review an album you're only lukewarm about or which you consider to be OK but not especially praiseworthy or horrible. So in general people are a bit more likely to review albums they want to rave or curse about than albums they don't particularly care about. When you take those two factors and put them together, the people reviewing albums when they are newly released are disproportionately likely to be folk who a) like the band in question and were looking forward to the release and b) formed a fairly immediate opinion about the album rather than being unsure and wanting to give it a few more listens before reviewing. So it's only natural that new releases get good reviews and then get harsher criticism later on. Personally, I think my 5-star ratings are a bit high at the moment, but they're skewed a bit because at the moment I'm doing a project of going through my music collection in chronological order and reviewing *everything* - which means that the albums I'm reviewing now will tend to be the 1960s-early 1970s albums which have well and truly stood the test of time. I anticipate my proportion of 5-stars will go down over time as I get to more recent albums which perhaps are a bit more imitative and a bit less innovative. What I think might help is a rule that an album can't appear on the top 100 lists until at least 6 months after its release date; I think that's a fair amount of time to let the initial wave of enthusiasm die down and get some input from cooler heads.
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cannon
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 03 2010 Location: Coho Country Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
Posted: June 07 2011 at 16:43 |
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How about a kick in the azz?
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: June 07 2011 at 13:00 |
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[shameless_plug]You can also rate at Progfreak.com - there you can, in addition to the rating, specify how familiar you are with the album.[/shameless_plug] I don't think that this is a good idea. If everyone did that - give the album a lower rating if for example they only listened to it once - you could never be sure of what the ratings mean. Obviously many people will fail to return to correct their rating later on. I think that even without an elaborate system of correction mechanisms and instructions it doesn't hurt if people, when blown away by an album at first listen, give it a 5/5, 10/10 or 15/15. If they had that kind of experience, that's what the rating should reflect. If they change their mind a few months later - who is to say that that rating will be more accurate? I'm sure that it often is, but sometimes people also grow tired of stuff, or lose interest in styles. There are obviously many factors here, and IMO the best strategy is to simply take every rating with a grain of salt.
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dreadpirateroberts
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2011 Location: AU Status: Offline Points: 952 |
Posted: June 07 2011 at 08:55 |
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Too generous, possibly, yeah. I've only reviewed a few albums, but the ideal situation for me is that I don't review anything that I haven't owned for at least over a year. Or 6 months perhaps.
So with that tough time frame, it's basically impossible for me to review a new release or anything that arrived in the mail between Feb & Now. So I will have to figure something out there. The cooling off period is a great idea. |
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We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
JazzMusicArchives. |
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: October 22 2005 Location: elsewhere Status: Offline Points: 67452 |
Posted: June 06 2011 at 14:06 |
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I could give my opinion on this, but I want something in return.
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Bonnek
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 01 2009 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 4521 |
Posted: June 06 2011 at 10:44 |
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Yep to the OP, too many generous fanboy and over-hurried ratings when albums come out. I don't always listen 10 times before I review, but I do usually take a couple of months, listening to the music in various moods, places and under various circumstances and multiple devices... 5 stars is only for albums that get me totally hooked for an extensive period of time. |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
Posted: June 06 2011 at 10:17 |
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I'm generally one to rate from the middle of the scale: making three stars as a normal likeable album, and 5 stars as exceptional... I start from the assumption that exceptionally good albums are the exception, so they're rather rare.... which means that even 5% of the total albums should be less than 5
 ... most people are way tooooooo generous, IMHOYes I agree that there should a self-imposed moratorium on reviews on new releases (last time I looked the latest VdGG album still had no collab reviews
 )And of course one should be able to update their reviews and ratings
: I can't see one reason to forbid it. I rate on Gnosis2000 and it's recommended not to rate higher than 11 (out of a piossible 15) before a few months after discovering the album, just to avoid the novelty factor ... you can always go back to change your rating later if you feel you've evolved in your appreciation.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166183 |
Posted: May 30 2011 at 17:58 |
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I imagine that in the beginning most people who seek out the album as soon as it is released (or even sooner) or really really big fans of the band, and they will probably be more forgiving for lesser tracks or things that are terrible about it, and thus rate it higher. After time, when the general listening community gets around to hearing it, things will probably level out to something lower. Not saying that fans can't be objective, it's just I imagine that fans could be less objective (compared to people who just like a band, or don't know them, or whatever) when it comes to one of their "favorite bands".
But, yes, I have noticed that trend happneing. I try to give new albums a little longer before I stop taking reviews/ratings with a grain of salt.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 3595 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 15:48 |
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For me, it depends on the album. If an album punches me hard with styles I gravitate toward (depressing, seemingly sincere, psychologically brutal, dark but catchy) I may be inclined to rate a tad higher than normal. On the other hand, it might take a long time for me to filter my personal bias against heavy metal to see just how great an album is. This isn't always the case, though. Originally, I rated Antony and the Johnsons' 'I Am a Bird Now' 3/5, even though it's dark, sincere, and all that rot. Finally, I ended up giving it a strong 4/5. And yes, this is a band far removed from prog rock. I review albums as a hobby. :P
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notesworth
Forum Groupie 
Joined: June 03 2010 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 98 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 15:39 |
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IMDb is the same way. Movie ratings shoot up when people first see them and then drop. Rate Your Music is the exact opposite: people rate new albums lower and it can take years for their ratings to go up.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:57 |
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I notice that Classic Rock, prog magazine reviews do not do ratings at all. While I can see the logic in this, I think they are a misguided omission.
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cannon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 03 2010 Location: Coho Country Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 14:17 |
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All good points. I can't disagree with what you say.
For me, I give four stars here to an album that would be a nine on a ten star system. For me, 5 stars=10 stars.
We all have different criteria for rating albums. In regards to the question, it is more of a general observation I have seen with ratings here at PA. I'm not saying that anybody's ratings are right or wrong or that I agree or disagree with how people rate albums. I have respect for others ratings. If you give In Absentia only a 1 star rating that wouldn't bother me in the least. If anything, I'd have admiration for you stating the fact that you think the album is only worth 1 star.
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 12 2007 Location: Bryant, Wa Status: Offline Points: 8619 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:30 |
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This speaks to my point of rating saying more about the rater than the album. You have only given two 5's, and one is to an album that bores me to death. No PT album exceeds 3 stars to me. But that's ok. Were I rating PT albums, someone would look at those ratings and say, "this guy does like Porky Tree". The choice is, read the review to see why (maybe this guys tastes match mine and I can check albums from his profile that he fancies), or move on and find out what someone with similar tastes thinks. I also believe there is a rather limited view we can take away from a 5 star system. There is considerable polarity built in. I give 5 stars here to what would be nines in a ten star system. Again, what I really, really like says more about me than the album. Edited by Tapfret - May 27 2011 at 13:30 |
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cannon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 03 2010 Location: Coho Country Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:19 |
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I have given only two five star ratings from any release in the last 20 years. One of those five star ratings is from this year. Deep Politics from the Grails. The other is In Absentia by PT. There is a handful I would rate as 4 1/2 stars. As for prog in the 80's, Moving Pictures by Rush I have given 5 stars with KC's Discilpine coming in at 4 1/2 stars. The 70's is another story.
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tupan
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 22 2005 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 1241 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:17 |
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Yes, it is |
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"Prog is Not Dead and never has been." (Will Sergeant, from Echo And The Bunnymen)
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13795 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 13:07 |
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I gave only one five star review last year, that being David Minasian, a rating I stand by. I haven't been as busy in 2011, but out of the seven (I think) 2011 albums i have bought and reviewed, only Pendragon's new release got five stars, again a rating I stand by.
The answer to the question is absolutely yes. I do think some are far too free with their masterpiece ratings. Masterpieces are a rare commodity, and looking at my almost 200 ratings, about 18% have a five star rating. Even this is probably too high, but nowhere as near as high as many others. Members need to realise that three and four star albums are what they say they are, good and excellent, and that there is no shame as an artist in getting this rating. As for a "cooling off period", I really sympathise with the sentiment, but it would be impossible to enforce, I think. I thought of having some sort of "review/rating moderating panel", who could objectively look at these things and mark down or up as they saw fit, but, again, too much work, and, of course, people would get extremely upset at having their marking changed. Having said all this, it is a fact that many people reading reviews are able to identify the reviewer who fits in best with their taste and is "sound of judgement".
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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zravkapt
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 12 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6451 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:53 |
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I refuse to give ***** to any album that is not at least 5 years old, it doesn't matter how much I like it. One of my criteria for a ***** release is for it to have 'stood the test of time.' Some people rate an album ***** before it's even released!
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The Truth
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 19 2009 Location: Kansas Status: Offline Points: 21795 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:51 |
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I don't do that personally, I normally up the rating with more listens. But I give a lot of four and five stars so you could say I'm kind of a music fanboy in general. |
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5210 |
Posted: May 27 2011 at 12:40 |
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Absolutely. I've down rated a bunch of newly acquired 5 stars to 4 over the years. I don't think ever to 3, and I've always listened many times before I review. But 3 months later, sometimes things change.
I've been more cautious about giving 5 star ratings lately, but it still happens.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Are We Too Generous?
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Mr ProgFreak wrote:
) are too generous. But really, the ratings say more about the rater than the album. That's why its a good idea to look at member profiles and get an idea of what they like and how the give ratings to really determine if what you are seeing is indicative of quality, or just personal taste. 