People's problems with growling

another great growling prog band is Between the buried and me im not sure if they have already been acknowledged  sorry

I generally find that when I growl at people, I don't get much of a response.  So now I've started barking instead of growling, and they generally back away quickly .

My intrinsic response is that it sounds silly because the cookie monster shouldn't be so upset. Or maybe it's not the cookie monster, it's just Keith Emerson having a bad trip. I don't think that will change any time soon.

I can't stand "clean" singing, its worses the music

Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: The Pessimist wrote: CPicard wrote: Dawn of Eternity wrote: I don't understand the problem people have with growling.   A clean vocal technique would not accompany such brutal music. It is generally a part of the aesthetic of death metal.  It's even more true when keeping in mind that the death-metal musicians lower their instruments from E to D, C or even B. In Meshuggah's case from B to F#. Hate to be that guy : P, but they typically tune down one semi tone, so their 7 strings are Bb and their 8 strings are F Of an interesting note, the bass player does not tune down a semi tone lower, but actually tunes UP one semi tone, which is what contributes to that awesome percussive guitar attack sound Meshuggah is known for (a.k.a "Djent". Every time I play the opening riff to Bleed, I just use a program to change the pitch up one semi tone, so I can the riff in the same position Meshuggah do, without needing to retune my guitar (my guitar stays in B standard pretty much all the time). Hell, some bands go as far to tune down to C an octave DOWN from what Arch Enemy uses, which is also lower yet than where Meshuggah goes guitar wise.

Goddamnit, you got me again... I actually kinda knew that already as I remember it being mentioned in one of their little youtube videos. But you know, the stupidity and history of heavy pot smoking kicked in and destroyed my memory

Now I know this for a fact, that Death tune all their strings a tone lower.

There, I just redeemed myself

stonebeard wrote: It seems odd to me that I get the impression lots of us here seem to be open minded about singing styles, but somehow growling gets on the wrong side of some. Is it just that it's usually in metal?

First of all, as others have said, the very music demands such vocal techniques.  Ergo, I think most people really object to the music as such and find it too loud, heavy and abrasive....unpleasant, in short.  That's why you'll find a lot of people saying they wouldn't mind growls if the music is good...whereas, me..."good growls"??? What the hell is that!!  If people like those, good for them, but growls really do sound tastiest with all the grimy and gory settings of quintessential death metal.  In fact, I would suggest that but for the music being arranged in a way that demands growls, you don't really need growls to express sorrow, introspection, you know, all those profound human feelings.  I am not saying it can't be appealing, I like death/doom albums that get that done for me too but I think it would sound a lot more appealing with clean singing simply because, as the detractors have put it in this thread , it would sound more genuine.  Maybe this too is a flawed perception but I wasn't listening to death metal right out of my womb so there's only a certain amount of mental conditioning I can discard and I would rather have Dio express triumph and power and Halford express sorrow and anger because they would do it in a way I would enjoy much more.  There's always the likes of John Tardy, Frank Mullen et al for the gory lessons in anatomy.  How can you put up with those lyrics??  Well, just don't read them (which is what I usually do)...after all, you can't understand the words in any case, right? 

CPicard wrote: Dawn of Eternity wrote: I don't understand the problem people have with growling.   A clean vocal technique would not accompany such brutal music. It is generally a part of the aesthetic of death metal.  It's even more true when keeping in mind that the death-metal musicians lower their instruments from E to D, C or even B.

In Meshuggah's case from B to F#.

BaldFriede wrote: Jimbo wrote: BaldFriede wrote: Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: Yes, as was mentioned a few pages back, Jane Doe by Converge rules, one of my favorite albums right now and would sound totally wrong without the hardcore/metal screaming. I get what this thread is trying to achieve, but there are just some people's mind you just can't change. Baldfriede is apparently " right in at least 90% of the cases. So I wouldn't even bother arguing, because I don't have the time, the patience and the inclination and past threads. I don't really come much to this forum anymore cos I have too many music projects going and I spend most of my time on audio production forums, and learnign about that stuff now instead of PA, so chances are you if you argue my post I probably wont be back to read it for ages lol Someone also thinks Peter Hammill can do raw and aggressive. Fair enough to TGMRoblov, but clearly non of us more metal inclined people are not really going agree. There was a time when I didn't like death metal at all, but hell, I've sat there and heard all the classic Obituary, Morbid Angel, Death, Carcass, In Flames, At the Gates etc records (since really I'm more of a metal fan than "prog" fan anyway) so I have a huge appreciation for the style of music in general. Fact: If you do not have the proper technique, you will f**k your vocal chords. It takes plenty of time to master and if you want to be good at it you need proper training , like singing or even proper hardcore screaming. I know a few people that have totally ruined their voices/tendons, whatever, from playing instruments incorrectly and having improper vocal technique. To be fair I'm the goddamn weirdo that listens to drone doom, emo/pop rock, death metal, jazz fusion and avant garde minimalist stuff, hip hop and post rock in the space of about 6 hours so really I just tend to listen to most genres if I and something good in it, thing being I'm just picky about what I like in individual genres. Some people are super open to new stuff, like myself, and are willing to give stuff some serious time to appreciate it if I can't get into it straight away, others can't. Some people just genuinely don't like something no matter how many times you try to explain it to them. And that's cool, cos there is a lot of music people have tried to get me into that I just couldn't, no matter how much I tried. So yeah, whatever, I love death growls, but I honestly wouldn't expect someone like Baldfriede, who probably doesn't have that background in listening to the Floridian and Gothenburg death metal scene bands like I do, to like death metal and/or death metal growls. I AM open to new stuff, very much so. I would even be open to growling; I am not against it per se. on the contrary, any vocal technique is worth exploring. What I am against is the attitude behind growling, which I consider to be puerile. I can't take these growlers seriously at all because of this attitude. "Look what a dangerous guy I am; aren't you afraid of me"? Sorry, but that's is simply childish. I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. I do find growls a bit silly when they're supposed to scare you (sorry guys!), but they can be used quite effectively to convey all sorts of feelings; especially sadness. Listen to this song - especially around the 5:30 mark - and you'll see that the growls in this case have absolutely nothing to do with appearing threatening or scary. On a general note, I'm relatively indifferent towards growling. Can't say that I'm a fan, but it doesn't really bother me anymore. In some cases (like the one above), it definitely adds feeling to the composition. That's why I gave a 90% figure. Any vocal technique can be put to good use. Since I growl myself if appropriate I certainly am not against it per se. I just find that special attitude I described ("Me big scary man") ridiculous.

Please name a handful of bands that give off that image. I'd like to hear some backup here.

And in reference to your earlier comments on the lyrics that growls portray... Most of the time, good (and I use the term very losely because the term "good" is down to opinion) death/grind/black/doom/post metal bands tend to have very thought-provoking, insightive, philosophical and a lot of the time beautiful and poetic lyrics. I can name about 20 examples here, and I will do:

Opeth (based on a whole load of different themes like love, betrayal, fantasy...)
Death (later stuff deals with human commentary and philosophical views)
Atheist (variety of different themes once again, a lot about nature and it's beauty)
Pestilence (sci-fi and sorrow)
Cynic (cosmology and sci-fi)
Agalloch (sorrow and love)
Behemoth (mythology)
Napalm Death and Cephalic Carnage (political)
Vader (war)
Meshuggah (chaos and sci-fi)
Nile (Egyptian history)
Isis (wide variety of concepts once again, Carry as an example being about a drowning man's anguish)
Pig Destroyer (political and comedy)
Morbid Angel (same sort of thing as Death)
Edge Of Sanity (fantasy)
Gojira (sci-fi)

Not exactly 20 (more 16), but I got bored at that point. Point being, a hell of a lot of extreme metal bands don't lyricise about gore and things that disgust. Yes, Cannibal Corpse, Suffocation, Regurtitate and bands of the like DO, but like most other genres of music, there is a variety of themes covered. Please, do not judge growls as a way to convey violence and gore, because it really isn't as simple as that. There are a lot of educated lyrics behind them that people ignorant to the genre just refuse to see. Please read through the lyrics on this link and tell me what you think.

By the way, I'm not sure if it's copyright infringement, so remove it <insert admin name here> if it is you rascal

^Yeah, take Burzum for example. A lot of them music he made was pretty sweet. But I just could not take that high pitched shrieking.
It is absolutely fitting of the music, but I personally can't stand it.

That's why I like "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" by Mayhem. The lack of shrieking vocals.
I think those are actually VERY fitting for the music myself.