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Lodij van der Graaf 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2009
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 Topic: Phil Collins (the Drummer)
Posted: July 21 2009 at 14:47 |
 Conor Fynes wrote:
Collins isn't a remarkable drummer for any of the stuff that he did with Genesis, or solo career. He was good yeah, but not a Bruford, Peart, or whatnot.. |
Also a big no to this statement! "The Cinema Show" (even in live performance) was just excellent! And/or anything that is on The Lamb album is just innovative and magnificent works!
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Certif1ed
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Posted: July 21 2009 at 14:46 |
Conor Fynes wrote:
Alright, yeah I'm listening to them now, and I now have to revise my previous statement:
Collins isn't a remarkable drummer for any of the stuff that he did with Genesis, or solo career. He was good yeah, but not a Bruford, Peart, or whatnot..
This Brand X is very cool though (very neat Jazz Fusion)! Thanks for introducing them to me JROCHA!
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I much prefer his style to either Bruford or Peart, especially on the early Genesis material. He has that almost magical looseness that I've only heard in the likes of Barriemore Barlowe or Pierre Moerlen, who are also amazingly expressive drummers.
I'd say he was remarkable.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Nov
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Joined: February 28 2009
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Posted: July 21 2009 at 12:06 |
Conor Fynes wrote:
Collins isn't a remarkable drummer for any of the stuff that he did with Genesis, or solo career. He was good yeah, but not a Bruford, Peart, or whatnot. |
Phil's drumming was perfect for Genesis. Bill Bruford, on the other hand, wasn't, because they soon swapped him out for Chester Thompson. Bill Bruford was perfect for Yes and King Crimson though. I'm glad to see that you've changed your opinion of Phil having now heard Brand X. He played with them because they let him be looser on the kit and the playing is more demanding. I guess you've learnt that it's best to keep the door slighly ajar for new opinions to come in 
Edited by Nov - July 21 2009 at 12:07
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The Old Road
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Posted: July 21 2009 at 09:07 |
Conor Fynes wrote:
Alright, yeah I'm listening to them now, and I now have to revise my previous statement:
Collins isn't a remarkable drummer for any of the stuff that he did with Genesis, or solo career. He was good yeah, but not a Bruford, Peart, or whatnot..
This Brand X is very cool though (very neat Jazz Fusion)! Thanks for introducing them to me JROCHA!
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I don't agree with your point re Genesis - his playing on Cinema Show, for example, is utterly beautiful.
However, his Brand X performances were probably his best and easily put him up there with Bruford and Peart.
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Lodij van der Graaf
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Joined: July 21 2009
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Posted: July 21 2009 at 02:51 |
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Phil Collins is one of the finest drummers ever hit drumsticks. He is undoubtedly a master behind acoustic kits, but also one of the most innovative drummers when played his electronic kits.
He also a great vocalist. Thanks to him, Gensis were not really needing an audition.
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Conor Fynes
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Joined: February 11 2009
Location: Vancouver, CA
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Posted: July 20 2009 at 17:09 |
Alright, yeah I'm listening to them now, and I now have to revise my previous statement:
Collins isn't a remarkable drummer for any of the stuff that he did with Genesis, or solo career. He was good yeah, but not a Bruford, Peart, or whatnot..
This Brand X is very cool though (very neat Jazz Fusion)! Thanks for introducing them to me JROCHA!
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Conor Fynes
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 11 2009
Location: Vancouver, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 3196
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Posted: July 20 2009 at 17:06 |
JROCHA wrote:
Hey Conor have you ever listened to Brand X? Listen to his drumming and then tell me if their is something special about his drumming. |
I have not in fact. I will listen to them now. Standby.
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
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Posted: July 20 2009 at 13:56 |
Drummerboy wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
I think he was quite a sensational drummer in some part of his career.
I don't think you can say that he ran Genesis, but his influence became bigger, and for the sake of good music I wished his influence was a bit less from 1982 on.
It's okay that his own albums have a more simplified sound, but IMHO Genesis should have stayed more complex, artistic. |
Collins was the front person for Genesis when it changed direction in the 80's. In a recent interview with all members I saw on VH-1 Classic, one of them (Tony Banks I think) responded unprompted to the accusation of sell-out by saying that their audience had been almost all male college students. Went on that their music was too "demanding" for most women (and non-college students, I guess) and they consciously wanted to broaden their audience. Not trying to start a whole thread of female prog appreciation, but interesting observation by the band of their audience. |
Collins was the main motor for the changes, no doubt. It's just that I think it would be going too far to say that he ran Genesis. Tony Banks said in another (old) interview that he was a hopeless person to dominate, and that from Abacab on each of the Genesis members had a 33% influence. But without Collins no such radical changes, that's true. I remember an old interview where they let Collins listen to some tracks by other bands. When they played him "Assassing" by Marillion, he hated the lyrics and he said that he had to put some trouble into preventing Genesis to put anymore nonsense like that on paper. Which says something about his influence.
Too bad about the conscious change of direction. Commercial motives seldom make music better.
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listen
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Posted: July 20 2009 at 09:44 |
American Khatru wrote:
^ This all has more to do with artful, tasteful decisions in these songs; though often exhibiting technical difficulty, it's more the first point that makes him "sensational". Including on live Knife. Remember, this is pretty much orchestral playing with everyone in Genesis playing a part. Being a big old look-at-me drum-filler would really have been unfortunate. That being said, Can-Utility, Fly on a Windshield, heck, Behind the Lines, I could go on ad nauseum. And the gentle touches in the exciting parts of Salmacis, the drama at all volumes in Watcher of the Skies.
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Yeah I get that... but I still don't see really anything special about the drumming in that song
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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Drummerboy
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Joined: March 12 2007
Location: United States
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Posted: July 20 2009 at 09:08 |
Moogtron III wrote:
I think he was quite a sensational drummer in some part of his career.
I don't think you can say that he ran Genesis, but his influence became bigger, and for the sake of good music I wished his influence was a bit less from 1982 on.
It's okay that his own albums have a more simplified sound, but IMHO Genesis should have stayed more complex, artistic. |
Collins was the front person for Genesis when it changed direction in the 80's. In a recent interview with all members I saw on VH-1 Classic, one of them (Tony Banks I think) responded unprompted to the accusation of sell-out by saying that their audience had been almost all male college students. Went on that their music was too "demanding" for most women (and non-college students, I guess) and they consciously wanted to broaden their audience. Not trying to start a whole thread of female prog appreciation, but interesting observation by the band of their audience.
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American Khatru
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Joined: March 28 2009
Location: New York
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Posted: July 19 2009 at 17:15 |
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Listen to Trespass. That's all you need to know.
I love this album, it's good enough in the song writing to get through to me despite the flaw, but the drumming is poor by comparison to the next album when Collins comes on board.
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 Why must my spell-checker continually underline the word "prog"?
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Nov
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: July 19 2009 at 15:28 |
The Old Road wrote:
Does anybody think any of the drummers for current bands are in the same league? Nick D'Virgilio (also greatly influenced by Collins) springs to mind. |
I'd agree with that. Zoltan Csorsz (who has played with The Flower Kings) is probably technically a better drummer.
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Nov
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: July 19 2009 at 15:25 |
Conor Fynes wrote:
He's decent, but theres ntohign special about him. he definately didnt have the chops to run a band like genesis.. |
Ha ha - hilarious  He was hired back in 1970 precisely because Tony, Mike and Pete recognised that he was a briliant drummer and elevated them musically to where they wanted to be. In fact, all three of them would probably say that at that time he was the only proper musician in the band. In short, I disagree with your comment.
Edited by Nov - July 19 2009 at 15:28
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American Khatru
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Joined: March 28 2009
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Posted: July 19 2009 at 10:28 |
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^ This all has more to do with artful, tasteful decisions in these songs; though often exhibiting technical difficulty, it's more the first point that makes him "sensational". Including on live Knife. Remember, this is pretty much orchestral playing with everyone in Genesis playing a part. Being a big old look-at-me drum-filler would really have been unfortunate. That being said, Can-Utility, Fly on a Windshield, heck, Behind the Lines, I could go on ad nauseum. And the gentle touches in the exciting parts of Salmacis, the drama at all volumes in Watcher of the Skies.
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Why must my spell-checker continually underline the word "prog"?
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listen
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Portland OR
Status: Offline
Points: 352
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Posted: July 18 2009 at 15:17 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
Yeah, I feel he's a great drummer, more, perhaps, because of his ear for doing interesting things with the drums and his solid sound than because he's a technique-monster. He is one of the few drummers who can really make a song like Fly On A Windshield or The Knife (just listen to the Genesis live take).
And personally, I think pop Genesis isn't too bad.
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What about the live take of the Knife (on Genesis Live ('73), right?)? I just listened to it and didn't catch anything spectacular at all. Can you point me to a time or times in the song that you particularly like?
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: July 18 2009 at 15:15 |
The Old Road wrote:
Phil's playing at his best had something that
few, if any, other drummers could match. The subtlety of his
performances on Cinema Show and the Unorthodox Behaviour album is
jaw-dropping.
I know that the Mastodon drummer, who is a terrific player, rates him as one of the greatest, and a major influence.
Does anybody think any of the drummers for current bands are in
the same league? Nick D'Virgilio (also greatly influenced by Collins)
springs to mind.
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I know a few who play in a superior league Seriously now, you seem to have the same taste as mine: Cinema Show and Unorthodox Behaviour have my favourite drumming moments from Collins, too!
Edited by harmonium.ro - July 18 2009 at 15:15
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listen
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Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Portland OR
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Posted: July 18 2009 at 15:15 |
AlanOB wrote:
I like him as a vocalist too, I think he's seriously underrated in that regard.
I challenge anyone to think of another vocalist who would have done justice to the material on Trick of the Tail as well as Phil did. He was the perfect replacement for Gabriel and the transition was seamless.
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I agree. I think he sounds great on ATOTT and W&W. I would venture as far as to say I prefer his vocals on those albums to the majority of Peter Gabriel's in Genesis.
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Now is all there is. Be before you think!
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The Old Road
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 03 2009
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Posted: July 18 2009 at 15:06 |
Phil's playing at his best had something that few, if any, other drummers could match. The subtlety of his performances on Cinema Show and the Unorthodox Behaviour album is jaw-dropping.
I know that the Mastodon drummer, who is a terrific player, rates him as one of the greatest, and a major influence.
Does anybody think any of the drummers for current bands are in the same league? Nick D'Virgilio (also greatly influenced by Collins) springs to mind.
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JROCHA
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Joined: October 18 2007
Location: Oakland, KS
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Posted: July 18 2009 at 14:23 |
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Hey Conor have you ever listened to Brand X? Listen to his drumming and then tell me if their is something special about his drumming.
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: July 18 2009 at 14:13 |
I think he was quite a sensational drummer in some part of his career.
I don't think you can say that he ran Genesis, but his influence became bigger, and for the sake of good music I wished his influence was a bit less from 1982 on.
It's okay that his own albums have a more simplified sound, but IMHO Genesis should have stayed more complex, artistic.
Edited by Moogtron III - July 18 2009 at 14:13
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Phil Collins (the Drummer)
