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amcy 
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Joined: February 09 2009
Location: England
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 Topic: Pineapple Thief abuse
Posted: February 21 2009 at 12:15 |
I have been out of action for a while and missed all these posts until now (so apologise the delay in responding). I may be being particularly dim (in which case I apologise - I am English after all!) but I am not sure what the issue really is.
Like Fil Karada says, there would be no point in trying to fix the rating of an album. It would take too long to set the accounts up and (unless the album were really obscure) would only make a small difference on the overall rating. If nobody else reviewed or rated and album, and I had the will to create 50 logins (which I am sure the good people running this site would spot and stop), then I could theretically get an album to have 50 votes averaging 5.0. That would be great, but would mean nobody else had played the album enough to think it worth rating. In other words, I would be fooling myself alone and achieving nothing else.
The fact that the album has a small number of people rating it highly does not say "vote rigging" to me. Having studied statistics, it would seem more likely that it was a small skewed pool of members voting ie it meant it was voted on by a small group of ardent supporters and that very few people had heard the music, but those who had loved it.
That conclusion is supported by my knowledge of Thief fans - people who follow them across Europe to see their every live performance.
However, that conclusion makes no difference to me, or (I would iimagine) most people. I would not buy an album based on a rating that might or might not be fixed. There are presumably thousands of albums rated highly on this site and I have not got the time (or welath) to investigate them all. If a review is written raving and comparing an artist with someone I rate, then I might try it out. It is more likely, though, that I would try out new music because I hear it or a friend or acquaintance whose opinion I rated said "listen to this, you will love it". I am sure nobody is naive enough as to think that rigging ratings would achieve this desired effect.
I do get the opinion that Johnobvious has some data I have not got, because I am with Sparkslive on this and have come to a completelydifferent conclusion.
No comment on the SoT - every artist's fans had the same ability to rig the vote and I would imagine that if any fans did, then all the fans of the various groups would have tried. I remain of the view that life is too short for this and the fact that the Pineapple Thief's album was the last one and was only found after scrowling off the front page would have work against them.
I realise that this is all my opinion though, based on loving the band's 7 brilliant albums, having seen them live 5 times and having personally met some of their most ardent supporters. The conclusion is therefore bound to be a little biased!
Edited by amcy - February 21 2009 at 12:16
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johnobvious
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Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
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Points: 1361
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 15:51 |
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Yes, you used my exact words and then tried to study their meaning for heaven knows how long. Reading between the lines seems to be your passion.
It is your opinion that "I roped the SoT survey by way of example into this thread." I don't think I can clarify my position any more clearly than I did in point one of my previous point. Shouldn't that clarify everything?
As far as the impartial listeners quote, it certainly would never happen because of all the fanboys out there. Hence any of those polls should be dismissed. I was just using a hypothetical to make my point.
I am reading your posts and remember your Bevis and Butthead remark. Not cool. And I would invite you to discover the SHIFT key.
And you certainly can not make the claim that the same people were not involved. They may have been. Not all for sure, but some perhaps. What they did was acceptable on SoT, but not here.
I do not want to fight with you. I'll concede the last word to you on your next post. I have no more to say regarding your points. My conscience is clear
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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sparkslive
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 16 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 14:18 |
i already commended you on your findings and have forgotten about that part of the post.
i'm not picking apart your post and made certain to quote your exact words.
you are and probably will continue to avoid the fact that you roped the SoT survey by way of example into this thread. and that's what i have been talking about.
and you missed point of the title thing.
and now your asking what if 500 impartial listener would have partaken in the survey. what, why would impartial listener even be on such a site.
you say i lost sight of the problem here,when in fact already praised your detective work, are you really reading what i'm posting or you to busy making chowder.
i don't think you will ever recognize that you put the survey into the same shame as the sad reviewers you discovered, by way of example. that's all i was trying to say.
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johnobvious
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Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
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Points: 1361
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 13:21 |
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Sparsklive, I thought my posts have been pretty clear, but obviously, you don't think so. So let's clarify:
1) I do not think there was any abuse whatsoever on the SoT poll. What I concluded from the results was that some fans of the band went above and beyond to get the word out so that Tightly Unwound would have a better chance of winning. That is okay.
2) But you can not tell me that if you were to poll 500 impartial listeners to all of those albums that the results would have been so heavy on TPT. Assuming this to be correct, it bolsters my argument (to some degree) that the one-day, five star people were not legitimate visitors to the site, but perhaps people who wanted to do something along the lines of the SoT poll. And that is to get the word out on a fine band. But there are no polls here. So they decided to go about the business of getting the word out by going around the (perhaps unspoken) rules of this site and doing what they did. I believed when I made the thread that most long standing members of PA as well as the admins would find this to be against the spirit of the site and would either want to voice their opinion against it or help address it if it was within their power.
3) I am sorry you do not like thread title. I did not put a lot of thought into it as I did not think it that big of deal and figured people would get the jist after reading my first post. While you may feel the title somehow impugns the band, I do not believe many others would share that view.
4) While I appreciate that you and amcy are ardent supporters of the band, you are losing sight of the problem here. The problem is not the album or the band and I think down deep you know that. You are trying to pick apart my posts in order to make me out to be the bad guy. And I don't think the person or people who started this are necessarily bad. They may have just made a poor decision by using loopholes in the system in the their crusade to get the word out. A lot of people work very hard to maintain this site and to write legitamate reviews and for this type of thing to happen is not in the best interest of the PA or people trying to look into TPT. That is all I was trying to bring to light.
Peace to you as well
Edited by johnobvious - February 17 2009 at 13:25
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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fil karada
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 16 2008
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 279
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 12:46 |
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You know... before I even got to see this forum (about 1 or 2 months after joining PA) I would think "OMG I love this album so much, it should be in the 1st 30 instead of 70, I should create another account to hel p the album" but then of course I dismissed the idea not much because of moral values but because logic and common sense: whats the purpose of a totally biased ranking?
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Some people find joy in knowledge. Some people find joy in ignorance. Some people just enjoy music.
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Vompatti
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 12:15 |
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I can't help but get some really absurd images in my head every time I see the title of this thread.
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Slartibartfast
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Joined: April 29 2006
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 11:47 |
 johnobvious wrote:
Coupon! My wife, she is sick. My daughter, she is sick. We are dying over here and you offer me a coupon? What can I do for you, sir? Shut the F... up! 
Sorry, enough OT Jerky Boys references. This is serious stuff here.
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Don't even get me started on pineapple as a pizza topping...  Pizza abuse!!!!
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 17 2009 at 11:52
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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sparkslive
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 16 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 10:23 |
first of all, i wouldn't be writing anything here if it weren't for the heading, pineapple thief abuse. this topic now has the word abuse, tagged onto everything that go on this page. it does imply corruption or deception. i haven't put any words into anyone's mouth. i didn't open the topic i'm just trying to clarify something's said here. and perhaps i owe you an apology. i asked a few short questions and none of them were answered.
when i first read your post it seemed as though you were on a good plight and found some people may have abused a reviewing system. your intentions were honest and you should receive recognition for exposing such practices. it's sometimes hard to read every word someone writes on sites like this as one may try to skim a bit to weed out jabbering. so, after re-reading every word i'm still perplexed.
on your first response the guy says he actually likes the pineapple thief and you shouldn't point the finger at them as there may by others that do this as well. for the next two posts you hammer out stats and show concern about advertisers. and for several posts on people tend to all agree that something should be done to prevent people from abusing a review system with several great ideas. maybe at this point the topic should have been changed to, review abuse but it wasn't and still had the pineapple thief pinned to it.
your very next post you seem glad for those that responded so far were on your side and that's where you could have easily put in your closing, enough said. the topic would have probably ended and it would have been a dead issue. but you wanted to continue and that's where you pulled in the SoT voters. what you've done is fuse the two together. you say, if you think i am smoking dope, go to Sea of Tranquility and look at their january poll. best album of 2008. 40 options. guess who is winning? pineapple thief by a wide margin. i wouldn't want to implicate bruce in this bs but they certainly have a loyal following it would seem. a following who isn't afraid to color outside the lines.
although you tried to exclude bruce you've made it clear you were amazed at such results with 40 options. and you were certain they have a loyal following, that isn't afraid of coloring outside the lines. without putting words into your mouth, do you mean, cheating?
now what you've done is incorporate anyone that participated in the survey and dragged them into your topic, pineapple thief abuse.
then tony brings it back to the review issues and has great insight, hence review abuse. perhaps he can control reviews better. sid won't even post a note if it's off topic. but it is the freedom of speech thing. anyway, everyone see's something should be done. but you can usually see through a bad review and star rating.
now comes the confusing part. amcy had some valid points and you wanted to address the reviewers with multiple accounts and star system scandal. you skipped past the part of SoT and went on to say that you never said the SoT poll was fixed. and just used it as an example that there are fans of the band who may be willing to go above and beyond to get PT more notoriety.sorry,but i'm not sure you can separate yourself that easily as you just stated the fans are willing to go above and beyond,do you mean, cheating? and we are still under the heading pineapple thief abuse, right. then you continue but with doubt that bruce prodded someone to do it and you would doubt with 99.9% certainty. but your not clear, do you mean SoT or the reviews? you go on to tell amcy, he thinks everything is just fine when there is clear abuse. still uncertain but it sounds like your back on the review part. so, you've tried to get out of thing he was wondering about, which was the SoT survey.
i hope you can know see that there is two parts to this topic. one is the review and the other is SoT. so, with that in mind i was only concerned about the SoT survey and thought i made that point. you say me and amcy give these people the benefit of a doubt and i would have to say your back on the review thing now and i'm not willing to give anything away. your just flip'n and flop'n here. get it right, we see smoke and infer fire also.
and the best part is, you say you could care less about the whole thing and just wanted to let admin. in on your findings. well,then you did care. and they took action. that's a good thing. just don't drink that bong water.
oh yeah, i laughed (almost fell off the chair laughn') when i heard the record collection wasn't even his. that's like posing next to, bar refaeli and saying that she's your girlfriend.
was the chowder, new england or manhattan?
listener of prog for forty years, peace.
see ya on another topic.
Edited by sparkslive - February 17 2009 at 12:03
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johnobvious
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 1361
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 10:03 |
Coupon! My wife, she is sick. My daughter, she is sick. We are dying over here and you offer me a coupon? What can I do for you, sir? Shut the F... up! Sorry, enough OT Jerky Boys references. This is serious stuff here.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 08:39 |
johnobvious wrote:
The Jerky Boys reference was obvious to me. It seems to me that some of the posters on here are just hitting each other with the hot mops and are getting a little testy. Maybe they need someone to fire some hot clam chowder on them.
What I am most proud of is that I got two guys to sign up to the forum with my rantings! Yeah for me.
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Maybe we could order them a pizza....
...and then offer them a coupons afterward.
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johnobvious
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 1361
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Posted: February 17 2009 at 08:31 |
The Jerky Boys reference was obvious to me. It seems to me that some of the posters on here are just hitting each other with the hot mops and are getting a little testy. Maybe they need someone to fire some hot clam chowder on them. What I am most proud of is that I got two guys to sign up to the forum with my rantings! Yeah for me.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 17:56 |
progadder wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Fire them out into the yard! <well that Jerky Boys reference certainly flew right over your head.  If it weren't obvious to John, I'd be rather surprised.
And by the way, doesn't all this thief abuse make you want to take a pineapple and a Gallagher sledgehammer and smash the crap out of it spraying the pineapple guts into a crowd of unprotected Pineapple Thief fanboys? <Gallagher reference, sorry to everyone. 
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As they say in the USA, you are such a self-absorbed a****le, it is untrue. The quicker picker upper.
Ooh, look at me, I've got a photo of all my LPS and CDs. Actually that isn't all my LPS and CDs, the collage is a little bit old.
Grow up. As to that remark, NEVER!!! |
I did mention that I actually really like the Pineapple Thief? Or maybe that's what inspired your abuse in the first place.
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 16 2009 at 18:02
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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progadder
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Joined: November 05 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 17:46 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
And by the way, doesn't all this thief abuse make you want to take a pineapple and a Gallagher sledgehammer and smash the crap out of it spraying the pineapple guts into a crowd of unprotected Pineapple Thief fanboys?
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As they say in the USA, you are such a self-absorbed a****le, it is untrue.
Ooh, look at me, I've got a photo of all my LPS and CDs.
Grow up.
Edited by progadder - February 16 2009 at 17:54
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There's an angel standing in the sun ...
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johnobvious
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 1361
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 13:49 |
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I would be happy to apologize if I was wrong and you weren't putting words into my mouth. Fact: I never said there was abuse in the SoT poll. If you inferred that, then that is on you. That system is less susceptible to abuse and I am sure it was a "spread the word, there is a poll you should vote in if you like TPT." All I am alleging is that the same people who pulled the stuff here may have been spreading the word. There is nothing wrong with that, I was trying to make the point that certain people may be rabid followers and do what they need to to spread the word. In the SoT case, I have no problem with that. But here on PA, what they did is just plain wrong.
Here on PA, there can be no doubt that there was at least one person who created multiple log-ins with the intent to give the album 5 stars. They did not supply their real name and they were only on the site for one day. The did not write reviews. If you want to chalk that up to their loyal fans voicing their opinion, you can do that. And technically, I can't say that site rules were broken. My issue is that this flies in the face of the spirit of the site and does not give a true view of the overall ranking of the album.
You and amcy seem to want to give this person or people the benefit of the doubt but the more stuff like this happens, the less validity the site has. If these people would have given a name and an e-mail address in their profiles then I would have no problem. But the pattern of secrecy shown here makes me think that where there is smoke, there is fire.
To be honest with you, I could care less anymore about the whole thing. I just thought I would let the admins know what I found out. I put the ball in their court and since there was only one post here from them, they must not think it is a huge deal, although as I stated, the total reviews went from 50 to 43 so I think they must have agreed with my findings to some extent.
And I certainly do not see how "the thief is getting abused." The rating is higher than it should be. Enough said.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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sparkslive
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 16 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 27
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Posted: February 16 2009 at 07:06 |
there is some major concern about the recent results of an election held by our friends at the sea of tranquility. you say you like to review lesser reviewed bands. so now if by chance, someone reads your review and tells a friend, man this group is great, you got to hear this and the two them go and vote for that band you reviewed, is that a vote that has been rigged? or have they abused the voting process by way of the original fanboy? or is the whole survey now one of a tainted nature? i hardly think so but i'd like to hear your answer. if i go on and tell a friend that there's a survey going on over at the sea and he reads the list and then enters a vote is that also considered a fixed vote? do you ever buy anything based on reviews? i don't and probably never will. if someone i know says listen to this your going to love it. i will listen, if i like it i will buy it. most of the time friends get it right but not always. radio play is another way i get to hear new stuff and then i'll look into further. record shops that play something that grabs my ear, i will go and ask what it is that's being played. but very little radio play hear in norway do i consider worth listening to. new york radio used to be much better as far as info about new music. but that's another topic. i have to say you guys are starting to sound like bevis and butthead. yeah,hee he he, lets smash a pineapple with a sledge hammer. he he, yeah yeah ,you vote to much, he he. or maybe, yeah, check this out, smash a watermelon, hee he. yeah yeah. you see what in mean. i feel compelled to finally say something about this abuse topic in hopes of getting closer towards clarification. as i see it the one being abused here is the thief. your quibbling about reviews of lesser reviews and go on to squabble about a survey for best CD. i have to admit that some of the dribbling is entertaining while much is senseless drivel. one quick question at this point. if a survey is being conducted for best CD and the fans don't vote for there favorite band,who is supposed to vote in such a survey? furthermore it sounds extremely condescending when people here, continue to use the term, fanboy. as if being a fan is a bad thing. this is your first post.
Topic: Pineapple Thief abuse
Posted: December 09 2008 at 21:17 |
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I am trying to do reviews of lesser reviewed albums and pulled out What we Have Sown. I was surprised to see it has 50 reviews. Only 6 of these are written, however. There also seems to be a heavy dose of 5 star reviews by people who were only on the site for one or a handful of days. But they made sure to review other albums as well to throw off the scent. Don't know if anything can or should be done. I might look further into some trends as it looks like a lot of these reviewers reviewed other albums by a lot of the same bands. Thoughts? |
your a senior member that has over 800 posts and this is what you find to be of interest, to accuse pineapple thief of abuse. you even had some response by another senior member with over 2000 posts and VIP status. also prog reviewers,special -collaborator and administration moderator. you've managed to draw some attention to such a claim of, abuse.
but isn't until your forth note that you actually get to the point of, abuse. and go on as if your stunned by the votes that the pineapple thief could possibly acquire. like how dare they really have anyone that would have the audacity to like there sound. let alone, cast a vote their way. they're winning, what, that's outrageous, something's foul. very curious if you even voted in this poll and who you voted for.
i checked into past surveys on the sea. from 2004-2008
04 chris caffery 266 - marillion 181 total votes 1304 difference between 1st & 2nd 85
05 magic pie 162 - opeth 109 860 53
06 rocket scientists 200 - mercenary 127 1097 73
07 magic pie 239 - porcupine tree 193 2926 46
08 opeth 84 - the pineapple thief 145 624 61
the total difference between top two is 61. if i have it right your complaint is about a 61 vote difference. when there is a 73 and even an 85 vote dif for other polls. did you happen to alert anyone on these findings. i can'y really understand why the survey would put opeth in the same category as the pineapple thief other then they released the same year. i can't believe that magic pie beat out porcupine tree. surveys sometimes tend to belittle the things they aim to enhance but i didn't hear anyone cry, abuse.
voter turn out was extremely low this year by comparison. there are currently 313 members at the pineapple thief. as you can see not all are active members. and i hoped they picked up some new fans from their tour in norway (january,just before votes closed) perhaps they did. i can't find a number for opeth members. seems like they didn't really want to take part in this survey or could really give a crap. so, in the end if the pineapple thief showed more support they can't be blamed for that. i fail to see abuse.
looking for an apology to the thief and all that participated in the survey being accused.
Edited by sparkslive - February 17 2009 at 13:15
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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Posted: February 13 2009 at 18:25 |
Fire them out into the yard! Ratings are important but thoughtful reviews weigh more heavily for me than anything else when it comes to the personally unknown. A little fanboy rating abuse has never led me astray and I think the weighting system/algorhtym diminishes their impact anyway. Also in this day and age it's easy to try before you buy. And by the way  for reviewing lesser known albums. if I were a mutant. And by the way, doesn't all this thief abuse make you want to take a pineapple and a Gallagher sledgehammer and smash the crap out of it spraying the pineapple guts into a crowd of unprotected Pineapple Thief fanboys? Wait, maybe a watermelon would be more fun...
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 16 2009 at 18:03
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johnobvious
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Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 1361
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Posted: February 13 2009 at 10:49 |
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The problem, Mr. amcy is that people sign up for an account just to put a 5-star review for the album and never sign in again under that name. It could be one person putting in multiple accounts. This goes against the spirit of this site and if found out, action should taken to delete these accounts and reviews. I never said the SoT poll was fixed. I just used it as an example that there are fans of the band who may be willing to go above and beyond to get PT more noteriety. I want to do a review of the album. I like the album. I like to review lesser reviewed albums and when I do that, my review carries more weight. But here, it will not move the scale hardly at all due to one or more fan boys messing with the process. We certainly do not know if Bruce prodded someone to do it and I would doubt it to a 99.9% degree certainty. But this is an issue that gives this site less credibilty and I don't like that. You certainly must like it since you seem to think everything is just fine when there is clear abuse.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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progadder
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Joined: November 05 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 07:20 |
I have posted reviews before and I am one of the people who has written a review for TPT.
However, what is wrong with someone not writing a review but just voting for their favourite band and not for any other bands?
When I last looked, I lived in a free country.
If the inference is that by doing so, people are trying to sway people towards said band, then again, what is the problem?
Loyalty should be admired, not criticised by the Thought Police that seem to inhabit so many of these fora.
G.A.L., people.
(BTW - this post will probably be removed, as have been all of mine that have been even slightly off-centre.)
Edited by progadder - February 10 2009 at 07:25
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There's an angel standing in the sun ...
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amcy
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Joined: February 09 2009
Location: England
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Posted: February 10 2009 at 07:03 |
johnobvious wrote:
Well, the album is down to 43 reviews with 5 written so maybe an admin excised some questionable ones and didn't tell us. Though it looks like there are a few more that could go. I can't really be mad at management. They set up the site on the honor system and certain jag-offs abuse it. If you think I am smoking dope, go to Sea of Tranquility and look at their January poll. Best album of 2008. 40 options. Guess who is winning? Pineapple Thief by a wide margin. I wouldn't want to implicate Bruce in this BS but they certainly have a loyal following it would seem. A following who isn't afraid to color outside the lines.
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I have never posted on this forum before but have been an occasional lurker for a while and now feel I need to post.
I am a fan of The Pineapple Thief and will admit to voting on the Sea of Tranquility poll. However, I fail to see how their loyal fan base and the fact they won the poll proves there was abuse going on. The poll had very few votes and a few hundred was enough to win the vote. That proves nothing other than that the result is not statistically reliable. I could equally argue that the order of the choices proves that certain people do not want the Thief to succeed - they were the 40th album you could vote for and you had to scroll a long way to find them buried away at the very end of the list.
I am not alone in thinking that they are the best band around at the moment (both recorded and live). That is my (very humble) opinion and I know it is nothing more than that and that my opinion is of no importance to anyone other than me. I also know that far more people either (a) do not appreciate them in the same way (and that is a valid opinion if it is not your kind of music), or (b) have never heard of/heard them.
I have reviewed one of their albums - it was my favourite album of 2008 and I make no apologies for the fact that the review is purely my one-sided opinion. I believe that the loyalty of the small fan base leads to the ratings being skewed to the high end. You either like them and rate them highly or do not rate them at all. However, it is a long jump to get from there to accusations of vote rigging and questioning whether Bruce Soord is involved.
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debrewguy
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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: February 02 2009 at 11:37 |
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I agree with the "probation" period before allowing new members' review.
That and it does give credence to the weighting case.
Maybe we can balance it out by increasing a person's "weight" as they post more reviews (ratings not included)
Mind you , that might be quite a tech task ...
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Pineapple Thief abuse
