Is Led Zeppelin IV a prog related album?

Sunday I saw Classic Albums Live perform the album. it really has you appreciate it.

You don't need to look that far to determine that "ethos" isn't prog, just listen to their music, that's all the evidence you need.

Cheesecakemouse wrote: Arrrghus wrote: Cheesecakemouse wrote: Arrrghus wrote: Cheesecakemouse wrote: Arrrghus wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: I'm actually quite happy with how the poll turned out ... I just wanted to see whether some people agree that while Led Zeppelin is not a prog band, the songs on LZ IV exhibit many prog characteristics.[IMG]alt=" align=absMiddle smileys smile smiley4.gif Big>>       Show them to me. I fail to find any. I think the album is a masterpiece, but I fail to see any progginess.     Stairway to Heaven."' smileys smiley32.gif? forum www.progarchives.com http:> Stairway to Heaven is not prog. Like said before, it's a standard song, just extra long. It's like saying American Pie by Don McLean is prog.        I disagree anyway, don't forget prog isn't just symphonic prog, and an epic song doesn't have to have many changes, because if I use your logic neither Can nor Neu! should be on the archives. What makes prog isn't the changes in a song but was a movement that started in the late 19600s with musicians who had the desire to break ground by fusing different music styles together to create something utterly unique. Led Zep was one of them.       What? How did you deduce that Can and Neu! aren't prog by my logic? I guess I didn't add that Stairway to Heaven didn't break any ground. Halleluwah stretches the boundaries of music; Stairway the Heaven doesn't. It has a rather common stucture. It has verses, choruses, bridges, and a guitar solo. True, the song does change, but so does Life's Been Good by Joe Walsh. Prog = progression. Stretches the boundaries of music.     Ahh now we're getting somewhere; Whole Lotta Love, Misty Mountain Hop, Immigrant Song, Kashmir and many such like stretched the boundaries of music. Robert Plants vocals, and the way he immitated Jimmy Pages guitar parts where unlike anything people had heard before. Plants singing style of Misty Mountain Hopleft some confused, because Plant's voice was deliberately singing flat. Plasnt was a vocal innovor just as Damo Suzucki and Peter Hammill were. The lyrics of Led Zep werwe quite often fantasy like other prog bands such as Hawkwind and Yes etc. The trouble is a lot of people don't recognise Zep's proggyness; firstly because they get so much airplay that it doesn't have the shock factor as say Foxtrot by Genesis does because everyone is used to it. Secondly, Zep has so many imitatiors in especially the metal genre that many people consider them part of the movemet, whilst they were prior to it and infact embraced many other styles such as celtic music and folk, classical etc.   An interesting fact is that JP Jonesplayed Racmaninoff on some of his keyboard solos while on tour; this sounds very ELP to me. Stairway to Heavan is an Interestingt piece; it mixes blues, folk and celtic music in the mix, it ranges from a delicate beginning to an heavy climax back to a soft ending, again this song has so much radioplay and so many imitators that people have forgotting or have never known the impact and innovation it once had. Jimmy Page was a innovator in the studio, creating complex layering on Physical Graffitti that it has been called their most baroque album. Another Innovationg of Robert Plants vocals was on Ramble On, on that song he starts soft and then suddenly heavy in the chorus hook. Not all Led Zep siongs featured traditional song structures eg; Whole Lotta Love, NO QUARTER and KASHMIR. Led Zep were more innovative to music than many bands on this site, In short I believe it is a misconception that Led Zep is not considered prog related at the very least.

    


Now you've made some excellent points!


However, this thread is about the progressiveness of Zoso, not the entire band. They were very innovative, yet so was John Coltrane, Phil Spector, Eddie Durham, Charlie Christian, and Jimmy Bryant. Are they all prog? No. Innovation does not translate into prog. They did make progressive and proggy stuff, but are they truly prog? Do they have that prog "ethos"? They are an amazing band, but they don't possess that ethos that gives them the progressive title.

Sasquamo wrote: Would you prefer it if I withheld my opinions?

Of course not, because I believe in the freedom of speech!

Sasquamo wrote: Cheesecakemouse wrote: Ahh now we're getting somewhere; Whole Lotta Love, Misty Mountain Hop, Immigrant Song, Kashmir and many such like stretched the boundaries of music. Robert Plants vocals, and the way he immitated Jimmy Pages guitar parts where unlike anything people had heard before. Plants singing style of Misty Mountain Hopleft some confused, because Plant's voice was deliberately singing flat. Plasnt was a vocal innovor just as Damo Suzucki and Peter Hammill were. The lyrics of Led Zep werwe quite often fantasy like other prog bands such as Hawkwind and Yes etc. The trouble is a lot of people don't recognise Zep's proggyness; firstly because they get so much airplay that it doesn't have the shock factor as say Foxtrot by Genesis does because everyone is used to it. Secondly, Zep has so many imitatiors in especially the metal genre that many people consider them part of the movemet, whilst they were prior to it and infact embraced many other styles such as celtic music and folk, classical etc.   An interesting fact is that JP Jonesplayed Racmaninoff on some of his keyboard solos while on tour; this sounds very ELP to me. Stairway to Heavan is an Interestingt piece; it mixes blues, folk and celtic music in the mix, it ranges from a delicate beginning to an heavy climax back to a soft ending, again this song has so much radioplay and so many imitators that people have forgotting or have never known the impact and innovation it once had. Jimmy Page was a innovator in the studio, creating complex layering on Physical Graffitti that it has been called their most baroque album. Another Innovationg of Robert Plants vocals was on Ramble On, on that song he starts soft and then suddenly heavy in the chorus hook. Not all Led Zep siongs featured traditional song structures eg; Whole Lotta Love, NO QUARTER and KASHMIR. Led Zep were more innovative to music than many bands on this site, In short I believe it is a misconception that Led Zep is not considered prog related at the very least. You make Led Zeppelin's music sound so complex, it made me want to listen to it.  Of course, after what seemed like  5 minutes (apparently  it was less than 2), I just had to turn it off.  Very simple radio-rock.  Even the heralded "prog-rock classic" Stairway to Heaven is very simple.  Same melody used over and over and over, and then, finally, the drums come in, and then a different melody!--never mind, it's the same melody from the beginning, only faster and louder.  To me that song is a perfect example of how not to make an 8 minute-plus song.  You'll never find a prog song of that length stick with the same melody as much as this song does.

Edited by Cheesecakemouse - November 15 2006 at 22:37

andu wrote: leave the man alone, he's a lost cause.  he doesn't like that particular band and he also developed an issue with it. you can't argue with that.

Oh me god, you're ever so right! Just look at Sasquamos contributions to other Led Zeppelin related threads and you'll see that he seems to despise the band altogether! Don't know why, he never really made it clear - or I missed it!

leave the man alone, he's a lost cause.  he doesn't like that particular band and he also developed an issue with it. you can't argue with that.

Of your examples, two came from krautrock and one from electronic rock, two genres that from my understanding are very similar.  I've never listened, to either genre much, but I don't think you'd ever call that music perfect examples of prog.  My definition of prog is not repeating the same thing for six hours, but if that passes for experimental, so be it.

Cheesecakemouse wrote: Ahh now we're getting somewhere; Whole Lotta Love, Misty Mountain Hop, Immigrant Song, Kashmir and many such like stretched the boundaries of music. Robert Plants vocals, and the way he immitated Jimmy Pages guitar parts where unlike anything people had heard before. Plants singing style of Misty Mountain Hopleft some confused, because Plant's voice was deliberately singing flat. Plasnt was a vocal innovor just as Damo Suzucki and Peter Hammill were. The lyrics of Led Zep werwe quite often fantasy like other prog bands such as Hawkwind and Yes etc. The trouble is a lot of people don't recognise Zep's proggyness; firstly because they get so much airplay that it doesn't have the shock factor as say Foxtrot by Genesis does because everyone is used to it. Secondly, Zep has so many imitatiors in especially the metal genre that many people consider them part of the movemet, whilst they were prior to it and infact embraced many other styles such as celtic music and folk, classical etc.   An interesting fact is that JP Jonesplayed Racmaninoff on some of his keyboard solos while on tour; this sounds very ELP to me. Stairway to Heavan is an Interestingt piece; it mixes blues, folk and celtic music in the mix, it ranges from a delicate beginning to an heavy climax back to a soft ending, again this song has so much radioplay and so many imitators that people have forgotting or have never known the impact and innovation it once had. Jimmy Page was a innovator in the studio, creating complex layering on Physical Graffitti that it has been called their most baroque album. Another Innovationg of Robert Plants vocals was on Ramble On, on that song he starts soft and then suddenly heavy in the chorus hook. Not all Led Zep siongs featured traditional song structures eg; Whole Lotta Love, NO QUARTER and KASHMIR. Led Zep were more innovative to music than many bands on this site, In short I believe it is a misconception that Led Zep is not considered prog related at the very least.

You make Led Zeppelin's music sound so complex, it made me want to listen to it.  Of course, after what seemed like  5 minutes (apparently  it was less than 2), I just had to turn it off.  Very simple radio-rock.  Even the heralded "prog-rock classic" Stairway to Heaven is very simple.  Same melody used over and over and over, and then, finally, the drums come in, and then a different melody!--never mind, it's the same melody from the beginning, only faster and louder.  To me that song is a perfect example of how not to make an 8 minute-plus song.  You'll never find a prog song of that length stick with the same melody as much as this song does.

Cheesecakemouse wrote: Ahh now we're getting somewhere; Whole Lotta Love, Misty Mountain Hop, Immigrant Song, Kashmir and many such like stretched the boundaries of music. Robert Plants vocals, and the way he immitated Jimmy Pages guitar parts where unlike anything people had heard before. Plants singing style of Misty Mountain Hopleft some confused, because Plant's voice was deliberately singing flat. Plasnt was a vocal innovor just as Damo Suzucki and Peter Hammill were. The lyrics of Led Zep werwe quite often fantasy like other prog bands such as Hawkwind and Yes etc. The trouble is a lot of people don't recognise Zep's proggyness; firstly because they get so much airplay that it doesn't have the shock factor as say Foxtrot by Genesis does because everyone is used to it. Secondly, Zep has so many imitatiors in especially the metal genre that many people consider them part of the movemet, whilst they were prior to it and infact embraced many other styles such as celtic music and folk, classical etc.   An interesting fact is that JP Jonesplayed Racmaninoff on some of his keyboard solos while on tour; this sounds very ELP to me. Stairway to Heavan is an Interestingt piece; it mixes blues, folk and celtic music in the mix, it ranges from a delicate beginning to an heavy climax back to a soft ending, again this song has so much radioplay and so many imitators that people have forgotting or have never known the impact and innovation it once had. Jimmy Page was a innovator in the studio, creating complex layering on Physical Graffitti that it has been called their most baroque album. Another Innovationg of Robert Plants vocals was on Ramble On, on that song he starts soft and then suddenly heavy in the chorus hook. Not all Led Zep siongs featured traditional song structures eg; Whole Lotta Love, NO QUARTER and KASHMIR. Led Zep were more innovative to music than many bands on this site, In short I believe it is a misconception that Led Zep is not considered prog related at the very least.

PROG ROCK is NOT the same as Progressive Rock.

Led Zeppelin are the latter.

Prog Rock is formally closer to jazz than to rock Progressive Rock is formally closer to Rock.

Anyone can innovate in small areas - the Human League were innovative, yet they're not in the archives or likely to be in the near future.

William Orbit has a hugely innovative approach to texture and arrangement - but does he get discussed?

Black Sabbath and Spooky Tooth were innovative - the latter far more so than Led Zeppelin, indeed, the Spooky ones inspired not only Led Zeppelin AND Black Sabbath, but Deep Purple too, as well as Judas Priest... the list goes on. Spooky Tooth should be considered above and beyond any imitators.


With the exception of Spooky Tooth's Proto, none of these are Prog Rock though - and don't confuse "unique" with Prog Rock.

Michael Jackson is unique - and fused different styles together.


*Note: "Whole Lotta Love" is based on the oldest song structure in the world - intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo, verse, chorus to fade.


    
    

Edited by Certif1ed - November 13 2006 at 04:05