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PA Albums of 2024: Official Results
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richardh View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 08 2025 at 01:29
Originally posted by Lights Faces Lights Faces wrote:

Sorry for intruding.
I don't know that much neither of prog nor of PA.
I do have some knowledge of the internet though, and of the atmosphere in different websites, social media, and forums.
And I don't really feel what you said in the end (to be sure, I might not always be able to read though the lines, and once again I'm not that much knowledgeable in prog and in music). If anything, I appreciate the forum for its somewhat friendly and light mood, at least contrasted with Reddit and other similar places. I have barely faced (I don't mean necessarily just suffering it, but even simply witnessing it) any deep snobism. At least during the last weeks, after I arrived here and started browsing regularly (not just on the threads I intervened into). It's clear the members know a lot about music, and they have asserted opinions, and they can be slightly judgemental... but they never get that far.
Of course, in this very specific thread, people have been discussing similar topics, and there is also a current thread dedicating to pointing out "Bad albums made to fulfill contractual obligation", but these don't seem to me to reflect completely the kind of atmosphere in here.
I can't say that much about your first paragraph, and I'm only coming from the perspective of an overall newbie, just a prog and music* amateur; and I guess there is some point in what you say in the 2nd and to some degree I can see where you're coming from, and we can hope that people do reflect sometimes on the activity on the forum, and try to talk about music, etc.; but if I compare my presence in here with what I've experienced elsewhere on the internet, it doesn't feel really worse here, and particularly more the case that people "just want their precious attitude to be validated" (which is very human and very internet-like).

Thanks for the thoughts. My post was definitely quite a 'cranky' one for sure! In general I am quite straightforward and live for prog and beer and a nice walk mainly (plus my nice family and I am eternally grateful for their tolerance). Music is a big deal to me (as it is for everyone else on here) but I just get a big fed up with a central deceit that are some genres that are more important than others ie Avant > Crossover or Prog Metal for instance. I think ALL music is valid and ultimately you choose your poison and that's it.
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tempest_77 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Well then, Max, the admins and collabs, should have that discussion.

Theoretically I agree, but everyone would need to be willing to have that conversation.
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Sorry for intruding.
I don't know that much neither of prog nor of PA.
I do have some knowledge of the internet though, and of the atmosphere in different websites, social media, and forums.
And I don't really feel what you said in the end (to be sure, I might not always be able to read though the lines, and once again I'm not that much knowledgeable in prog and in music). If anything, I appreciate the forum for its somewhat friendly and light mood, at least contrasted with Reddit and other similar places. I have barely faced (I don't mean necessarily just suffering it, but even simply witnessing it) any deep snobism. At least during the last weeks, after I arrived here and started browsing regularly (not just on the threads I intervened into). It's clear the members know a lot about music, and they have asserted opinions, and they can be slightly judgemental... but they never get that far.
Of course, in this very specific thread, people have been discussing similar topics, and there is also a current thread dedicating to pointing out "Bad albums made to fulfill contractual obligation", but these don't seem to me to reflect completely the kind of atmosphere in here.
I can't say that much about your first paragraph, and I'm only coming from the perspective of an overall newbie, just a prog and music* amateur; and I guess there is some point in what you say in the 2nd and to some degree I can see where you're coming from, and we can hope that people do reflect sometimes on the activity on the forum, and try to talk about music, etc.; but if I compare my presence in here with what I've experienced elsewhere on the internet, it doesn't feel really worse here, and particularly more the case that people "just want their precious attitude to be validated" (which is very human and very internet-like).
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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 29316 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2025 at 17:00
This is all very strange. I mean I'm hearing a lot of music I like and Prog Archives helps a lot in pointing me in the right direction but that is mainly through the reviews and the database. Even back in its heyday, the seventies, prog rock wasn't the biggest genre until we take a revisionist view on it and start adding bands that were never part of it and never considered themselves 'prog'. Prog as a thing lasted a nano second of human existence and many were getting bored with it even before the punks came along. I think what I'm saying is why should it even be popular or liked or have that many listening to it?

What I do read on PA and it seems to have got worse in recent times is a lot of snidey comments towards bands that make so called cookie cutter prog as if they may be commiting some crime or other. This just screams 'elitism' to me. Perhaps that is driving people away as much as anything else. Discussions in general on the forum are pretty bad. No one talks about music very much, just moans or gripes about things not being good and then presumably wonders why their precious attitude is not being validated more than it deserves to be. 
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Yeah, from the 30 seconds I heard, you are quite talented, Mike.

Thanks! Sometimes I forget that not everybody has a Spotify subscription Wink
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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^Well then, Max, the admins and collabs, should have that discussion.
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tempest_77 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think that "Prog" is on the decline in general, in terms of number of listeners. As many have pointed out, there is a trend towards "simpler" music. Websites like PA (and AP, to a lesser degree but still) which focus on Prog are becoming more and more "special interest". I think this cannot be helped, and who knows? The trend might reverse when/if new generations of listeners become bored with the trendy generic music they've grown up with and are looking for interesting stuff.
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

However, progressive rock isn't as popular as it once was.

I'm not going to pretend like prog is as popular as it's been in the past, and I also won't deny that ProgArchives is kind of inherently geared towards an older demographic. However, plenty of young people find experimental and progressive music interesting (example, I'm 24 years old)—they ARE getting bored of generic music and many of their ears are open to new sounds. 

You have bands like Black Midi and King Gizzard playing at Coachella and other huge music festivals, there's a lot of new or ongoing prog/experimental scenes that are still producing fantastic material (Windmill Scene, Scandinavia, Milan, New Jersey), and labels like Cuneiform, Karisma, and Joyful Noise are all very active labels churning out that kind of music.

While what's on the radio and the charts continues to, on average, be pretty bland and boring, the scene of independent/underground/otherwise non-mainstream music is bigger now than ever before. Airplay and charts are no longer a good measure of whether music can be considered "popular", and "popular" can be very different than "mainstream" due to an overall increased access to music and a larger audience from population growth in general.

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

There is no solution. People get bored with the same forum topics and move on. Or some, e.g., Man With Hat (still miss him) leave due to conflicts with other members. Others start YT channels and some have podcasts.

And this is just defeatist. There's absolutely truth in it, and those things will always pose problems to some degree, but saying there's no solution is just pessimistic and will only lead to PA dying out further. Why not think about ways we can revitalize the forums instead? I don't know, maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but in my opinion looking at things this way is pointless if one actually cares about PA continuing to survive.

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Add to this the outdated software, technical issues, and lack of care by the owner of PA.

In my opinion, Lewian is the only one focusing on the right problem here (and also one of the only problems that isn't a larger societal factor that we can't do much about).

I really believe that the design, technical, and management issues are a huge part of what's driving people away. I don't recommend ProgArchives to people as much as I would if it was a well-functioning website. I'm aware that there's a lot of things that can't be fixed while Max is still the owner but the discussion should still be had. And if we really care about reviving ProgArchives (vs. letting it die) then maybe we need to start having a much more serious conversation about trying to get it out of his hands.
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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^Yeah, from the 30 seconds I heard, you are quite talented, Mike.
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Valdez View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:



Heck, even I am published there (https://open.spotify.com/album/7lkDKYIrwiGW5kcq4M79sJ LOL).



Hey that's some pretty good southern Blues playing. 
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's frustrating though ... yet another thread on Love Beach! Maybe we should have the admins remove it, so our eyes don't get tired of seeing it! And go somewhere else ... the harder issue to deal with, is seeing many folks that post regularly immediately go to it and say something, instead of letting that thread die. I think it says more about many of the folks on PA than it doesn't ... and then we wonder why the number of folks is diminishing ... the amount of music and works certainly isn't ... so, it is very clear that the perspective is not right at all ... Mike would have no work if the names and works was not there! And it is, and more than EVER.

On the topic of dilution, i agree. Many experts (of the music industry) have pointed out that today there is much more crap being produced than back in the 70s. That's mainly because it is really easy to produce an album and to put something out there, distributed world-wide. Heck, even I am published there (https://open.spotify.com/album/7lkDKYIrwiGW5kcq4M79sJ LOL).

Which is why it is more important today to have good tools for selecting the worthwhile releases to listen to than it was back then. In the late 80s, when I was old enough to look for music, there were two options: 1. Go to the record store and sample some albums, which was time-consuming and suffered from limited selections, and 2. read music magazines. Nowadays we still have the magazines (and I have a subscription for Prog magazine), but the most helpful other tools are websites - like RYM, AP and PA.
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

It's really quite a problem that there should definitely be more conversation about solving.
There is no solution. People get bored with the same forum topics and move on. Or some, e.g., Man With Hat (still miss him) leave due to conflicts with other members. Others start YT channels and some have podcasts.

However, progressive rock isn't as popular as it once was.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - February 06 2025 at 07:16
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think that "Prog" is on the decline in general, in terms of number of listeners. As many have pointed out, there is a trend towards "simpler" music. Websites like PA (and AP, to a lesser degree but still) which focus on Prog are becoming more and more "special interest". I think this cannot be helped, and who knows? The trend might reverse when/if new generations of listeners become bored with the trendy generic music they've grown up with and are looking for interesting stuff.


Hi,

Possible, and likely. However, I wonder how much of it is that folks are spread out through much more content which will get spread out even further, thus, making it look like there are fewer folks in it. The general thing in the internet has been, for 20+ years more people ... spread out ... not less people in many sites, though I imagine that after a while you might get bored with this or that ... but I also think that what folks do with the work itself is an issue ... and in some ways, it would be fair to say that most of these sites have become about the numbers, and less about the music itself ... it's really weird to see music ranked/rated, and no articles and folks discussing it ... I think that says it all ... so eventually not seeing folks caring about other works other than the top this or that ... is a good sign that the interest waves and winds have changed ... to something else ... 

It's frustrating though ... yet another thread on Love Beach! Maybe we should have the admins remove it, so our eyes don't get tired of seeing it! And go somewhere else ... the harder issue to deal with, is seeing many folks that post regularly immediately go to it and say something, instead of letting that thread die. I think it says more about many of the folks on PA than it doesn't ... and then we wonder why the number of folks is diminishing ... the amount of music and works certainly isn't ... so, it is very clear that the perspective is not right at all ... Mike would have no work if the names and works was not there! And it is, and more than EVER.
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^ Yes, but here the nature of Prog and its fanbase actually provides some sort of synergy - Prog, as in the original prog rock albums of the 1970s - are outdated as well, even more so than the website. Smile
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Add to this the outdated software, technical issues, and lack of care by the owner of PA.
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^ I think that "Prog" is on the decline in general, in terms of number of listeners. As many have pointed out, there is a trend towards "simpler" music. Websites like PA (and AP, to a lesser degree but still) which focus on Prog are becoming more and more "special interest". I think this cannot be helped, and who knows? The trend might reverse when/if new generations of listeners become bored with the trendy generic music they've grown up with and are looking for interesting stuff.
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tempest_77 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

This...
Quote
There are 32 participating users in total, which is half of last year's turnout (56).
...is a bit worrying, as the reason must be that there are generally fewer people around (for sure the reason is not how this was runClap ).

It's no secret whatsoever that the ProgArchives user base has severely declined in the past 5-6 years. The highest rated albums every year have fewer and fewer votes by the end of each year, with a lot more random stuff that's only up there because it fits a niche in the remaining user base (no offense to any of the bands I'm thinking of). There's only three albums released in the 2020s so far that have more than 300 ratings (Dwellers of the Deep, Love Over Fear, and Closure/Continuation). 

It's really quite a problem that there should definitely be more conversation about solving.
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^ Yesterday I changed the code so that when you have different browsers editing the poll list, once you save it in one of them the others will pick up the most recently saved version automatically, discarding the edits. In any case, those of you using several browsers should look at the submitted list to make sure that it's correct. I've also reduced the amount of information in the list so that it is easier to browse visually.
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

^Something happened with my list. I see that Monarch of Monsters only has yours and Lewian's votes for 27 points. And it was 4th on my list (counting PA only) for the 16 points to get it to 43. It's no longer on my list.


It was on your list from 2025-01-30, but then you submitted updates where it was no longer listed. You can check your lists on a daily basis using this url:


Not sure what happened there - did you maybe use several different browsers? There is a button beneath the list to restore it from the server, it's easy to overlook. 


That is it. I submitted my list from my laptop and was trying to update to add a band on my phone and I think that was where I went wrong. That and I was doing it at 2 or 3 in the morning because I wasn't sleeping.
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Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

^Something happened with my list. I see that Monarch of Monsters only has yours and Lewian's votes for 27 points. And it was 4th on my list (counting PA only) for the 16 points to get it to 43. It's no longer on my list.

It was on your list from 2025-01-30, but then you submitted updates where it was no longer listed. You can check your lists on a daily basis using this url:


Not sure what happened there - did you maybe use several different browsers? There is a button beneath the list to restore it from the server, it's easy to overlook. 
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IncogNeato View Drop Down
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I managed to wrangle a few of those and heard a few more....maybe not as out of touch as I think I am? Ha!
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