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    Posted: May 07 2022 at 05:56
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

...
That is because most, if not all, progressive rock is not on the same level of the well-known classical composers. Really not even close. I make my living as a music teacher and I have a masters degree in theory and composition. Some progressive rock carries window dressing similar to classical music, but there is nothing in the world of prog rock that equals the works of people like, Stravinsky, Mozart, Schoenberg, Bach etc.

Not even Änglagård, Kotebel, Thieves' Kitchen, Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, Present, Premiata Forneria Marconi, Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Five-Storey Ensemble, Factor Burzaco, Magma, Koenji Hyakkei, or Godspeed You! Black Emperor?


Hi,

I wonder why you even made your comment about the classical music, if you thought that there are not enough "students" out there that can come up to the quality of "the masters".

It seems strange to me, specially when so many of the Canterbury folks are high level academics, and in Germany there were also some very high level academics, and for me ... the suggestion is ... very obvious. You have not heard enough, or more stuff that would have given you a better idea of what you stated BEYOND POP MUSIC.

Just recently been hearing so Space Pirate Radio (still at it 48 years into it - I was there at the start and have tapes to prove it!) and when you hear Kant Freud Kafka and then some Frenchman (can't even find it right now) that is some kind of off the rocker Zappa and then some!) ... and then read something like this ... it is downright scary.

One last thing. A SCHOLAR would never state that there is nothing classical within the pop music spectrum. He might say it is not as widely seen instead, but he/she would know that he/she has not heard EVERYTHING out there to be able to make a decent statement of truth ... instead we get the music 101 from the University of Piled Higher and Deeper Chit ... that basically states that ONLY THEIR IDEA is true and that's the end of the discussion!

Progressive Music needs scholars. A lot more of them that are not afraid of the new materials and special music out there the world over, unlike many of our egocentric westernized folks that think Europe invented music and the rest of the world is stupid and can't play music!


Edited by moshkito - May 07 2022 at 05:57
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Just two small remarks:
(1) Part of Art Zoyd's later output is straight avantgarde art music, partly collaborating with people who were established in more academic "art" contexts, and they ultimately became part of it themselves. I don't think anyone would deny them that in the last years, although of course to what extent that's in any sense "higher" is a different matter. Irmin Schmidt's most recent music also can count as pretty straight classical, of course he was a Stockhausen student anyway. I'd locate Fred Frith, Asmus Tietchens and some others in the grey area between a more self-organised "anarchist" and the more academic avantgarde art culture; surely they share venues, festival appearances and the like  
(2) In the early eighties I saw Sky live, and they started their concert by announcing that "this is a modern classical concert, not a rock concert". They, too, had musicians with classical background (Williams, Fry, Flowers). I didn't like this framing a lot as I thought they distanced themselves from parts of their audience including myself in this way, and I also didn't think that this categorisation really meant that much for their music. Sure, they had adaptations of classical stuff but also their own compositions, which were more in the rock or say popular music world as far as I'm concerned, but anyway the concert was great. 


Edited by Lewian - May 07 2022 at 05:47
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Flash Allen: "But in the end, it seemed that mainstream critics still regard progressive rock as a form of popular music rather than classical music. (I see little mention of progressive rock in the history of classical music.)"

That is because most, if not all, progressive rock is not on the same level of the well-known classical composers. Really not even close. I make my living as a music teacher and I have a masters degree in theory and composition. Some progressive rock carries window dressing similar to classical music, but there is nothing in the world of prog rock that equals the works of people like, Stravinsky, Mozart, Schoenberg, Bach etc.

Not even Änglagård, Kotebel, Thieves' Kitchen, Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, Present, Premiata Forneria Marconi, Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso, Five-Storey Ensemble, Factor Burzaco, Magma, Koenji Hyakkei, or Godspeed You! Black Emperor?



Edited by BrufordFreak - May 07 2022 at 05:20
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Prog ain't got no class.
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Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

It's interesting that you mention discourse analysis.  I was just getting into prog rock as punk appeared and the dominant discourse, in the UK at least, came from music journalists (Melody Maker, NME, Sounds etc) who 'championed' the (largely illusory) working class origins of the punk bands and pitted them against the progressive acts.  Although the book focuses on the band Henry Cow, Ben Piekut's book 'The World is a Problem' touches upon the politics of music in the 1970s and the context from which it derived (recession, rising unemployment, etc.)

Thank you for your reply. I did a research on The Construction of The Concept of Progressive Rock before, and I found that the concept of "progressive rock" was not invariable. For example, in the 1960s and 1970s, it was mainly media narrative (such as The NME, MM you mentioned), but later, with the interweaving of multiple discourse, people's understanding of progressive rock now presents diversity. 
In addition, I have found the book you mentioned for reference. Thank you very much!Thumbs Up
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

...
"From the early sixties … there was a counter-tradition in rock and roll that had much more in common with high art—in particular avant-garde art—than the ballyhooed art-rock synthesis [progressive rock]; it involved more or less consciously using the basic formal canons of rock and roll as material (much as pop artists used mass art in general) and refining, elaborating, playing off that material to produce … rockand-roll art. While art rock was implicitly based on the claim that rock and roll was or could be as worthy as more established art forms, rock-and-roll art came out of an obsessive commitment to the language of rock and roll and an equally obsessive disdain for those who rejected that language or wanted it watered down, made easier … the new wave has inherited the counter-tradition.[14]"
...
I once asked, Speaking of art, would Prog be considered high art, low art, or mid-art? Or is it, perhaps, better to think, "It's only prog rock and roll, but I like it?" Never mind, I'm thinking of "stoner rock" -- now that's "high", but is it art? .
...
I think that some progressive rock artists took their music very seriously and did hope to elevate to so-called high art, to be taken seriously as art music (sophisticated), but I tend to look at it more that they drew on high-art music while still being rooted in popular music. 
...

Hi,

Nice stuff and well written, and that quote from that place ... 

I came from a high level literary place, and even in the mid 70's when I mentioned Nicolas Roeg and his films, several professors (party at our house the always discussed what they saw lately and so forth!), thought that it was way too pedestrian. Having gotten fed up with the aristocratic/academic attitude, at the University I even wrote an original screenplay which Paul Lazarus (related and worked with Stanley Kramer and our screenplay instructor) that was in many ways inspired by Bunuel and Roeg ... only to get an A, but was told that you can't jerk around people's minds and get away with it all the time! A year later I gave a copy of the screenplay to a professor teaching a course on my dad in Italy, and her response? Why do I use "personal symbols" instead of standard symbols? (Presumably those defined by Freud and Jung and some other holes!) ... 

I was done with academia, and specially, the total idiocy and lack of the scholarship needed to help higher level students, unless all you are doing is working the meat grinder a la The Wall!

There is, in essence, no difference between high and low this or that ... it is an illusion that the rich and upper class (in general of course) use to ensure that you don't know enough to even make the comment you just did! When they weren't intelligent enough to tell you how they thought it the way they saw it, is when you knew ... they only cared for the material that their "class" accepted and adopted as puppets, so to speak, PLUS the very idealistic image they had of the literary world and its history, which is even sicker than we know and care to learn and study! It can be down right ugly!

Many read Heinlein, but said nothing except ... it's science fiction ... even though his best known book was a serious attack on the moral hippocrisy within society and all that. No one wanted to say a lot about Vonnegut because he gave us such a cynical view of things, and I (French style) devil may care substance to a lot of things. Many read Roth, but thought it was lewd at times. And even Henry Miller, who was accepted mostly because he was better known in Europe than here, specially in France!

Likewise, there was a lot happening in the arts, that was not handled well and was not appreciated as much. All the "freedom" in theater and film, has totally gone away to commercially provided "entertainment" that we think is great because of the large advertisements, not even considering that the same studio also owns the newspaper and the place where you see the advertisements ... in America, it is almost all the same corporate style! The university/academic standard is the same ... anyone not standing in line properly, will not be voted for a continuation of your teaching contract next academic year ... plain and simple!

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

...
 Prog is a fusion of genres and influences with a rock (popular or low art) foundation. It has not been seen at the "level" of academic music or art music by serious" critics and academics generally, I believe -- not taken so seriously. I think RIO/Avant prog often comes closest to so-called modern classical music (Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, Aranis....)
...

Normally I like to say that it isn't at the "academic" level because it isn't dead, and those cowards do not wish to find themselves wrong, and out of favor in their group! You can ask a whole bunch of the folks in America and Europe, and many writers in the 60's who are accepted now, but had a real hard time getting acknowledged for their work. 

And a lot of times, this is the side of "progressive" and "prog" that I fight for here on PA ... by using a model that labels top this or that,  we are in essence supporting the socialist mold ... that separates those who got it from those who don't ... and a lot of the music was "defined" because some folks went to school for a few years, though it was VERY OBVIOUS that their studies did not go very far. I can see where Keith Emerson was much more dedicated to his composing efforts (you can hear it on Rachel Flowers' finger!), or Peter Michael Hamel ... who by all standards were very high level, and basically stayed there ... as opposed to Mr. Curry and Cape that was not as well developed or dedicated a music scholar until much later!

No one goes around calling PMH a gumball because he is a very high level instructor and scholar of a lot of music and his books are insane in that department ... and it will be a cold day that Mr. Curry and Cape can even come close to that! But one is "popular" and the other is just an academic that no one will EVER bother reading, specially a PA user!

So if we want to define "high and Low" the first thing we need to do is ... LOOK IN THE DUCKING MIRROR ... before you say anything! Because in the end, there is no such thing, and we all will be dust and matter for the universe, regardless of our beliefs!

The matter is ... do we want to appreciate the art form? Or are we simply drumming more support for our favorite bands? 

... make up your mind before I make it up on you ... (AD2)
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Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Occasionally you find these diagrams on the web, which may or may not help. This one is approx 20 years old:See the source image

I assume this is quite a serious diagram but it reminds me of some of the labyrinthine graphs you get in the Kennedy Assassination with everyone from Big Oil to Lee Harvey Oswald's second cousin implicated.
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I get where EasyMoney is coming from:  progressive rock is still rock music, it's supposed to be and wouldn't be prog if it weren't, right?   Steve Reich is not prog rock because he isn't rock, not because he isn't progressive.   Doesn't mean I don't like Steve Reich or rock musicians that may emulate him, but Reich did things that transcended normal musical genres.   Schoenberg as well.   Prog expanded on rock 'n roll but it didn't often transcend much...other than an occasional stoned college student.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Flash Allen: "But in the end, it seemed that mainstream critics still regard progressive rock as a form of popular music rather than classical music. (I see little mention of progressive rock in the history of classical music.)"

That is because most, if not all, progressive rock is not on the same level of the well-known classical composers. Really not even close. I make my living as a music teacher and I have a masters degree in theory and composition. Some progressive rock carries window dressing similar to classical music, but there is nothing in the world of prog rock that equals the works of people like, Stravinsky, Mozart, Schoenberg, Bach etc.

What do you mean by equals? Do you mean nothing in the world of prog is as good as those composers? Because if that's what you mean I think that's a silly claim to make and at any rate one I verily disagree with. Do you mean something less divisive perhaps, like nothing in the world of prog really accurately captures and adds to the rich and beautiful language of these composers that helped inspire it?  I think that's a much easier claim to make, as most prog definitely likes to take bits and pieces form various things and mish mash them together in its own way, not usually caring about the syntax and grammar of the languages it borrows from in the process.


Edited by Sacro_Porgo - April 16 2022 at 22:42
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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It's interesting that you mention discourse analysis.  I was just getting into prog rock as punk appeared and the dominant discourse, in the UK at least, came from music journalists (Melody Maker, NME, Sounds etc) who 'championed' the (largely illusory) working class origins of the punk bands and pitted them against the progressive acts.  Although the book focuses on the band Henry Cow, Ben Piekut's book 'The World is a Problem' touches upon the politics of music in the 1970s and the context from which it derived (recession, rising unemployment, etc.)
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Definitely Listening To The Future by Bill Martin. He seems to take a very sociological approach.
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Occasionally you find these diagrams on the web, which may or may not help. This one is approx 20 years old:See the source image
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Have you heard any of the 4 albums by the Japanese string quartet The Morgaua Quartet, who otherwise record 'serious music' albums? Possibly not, so find the Denon Records catalogue. This band name was referred to here on PA a decade or so ago and turned out to be worth following. They demonstrate that with good arrangements, progressive rock compositions can be 'high art', whatever that is. In their repertoire, The Moragua Quartet, have played Yes, Krimson, ELP, Pink Floyd, etc. They are not the only ones, I have others string quartets interpretations of Kraftwerk, Rush and Mahavishnu Orchestra. As I recent wrote elsewhere jazz musicians are very happy to raid the progressive rock song book: Brad Mehldau's energetic retake of 'Tom Sawyer' being the case in point.... also previously attacked by the Bad Plus.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Flash Allen: "But in the end, it seemed that mainstream critics still regard progressive rock as a form of popular music rather than classical music. (I see little mention of progressive rock in the history of classical music.)"

That is because most, if not all, progressive rock is not on the same level of the well-known classical composers. Really not even close. I make my living as a music teacher and I have a masters degree in theory and composition. Some progressive rock carries window dressing similar to classical music, but there is nothing in the world of prog rock that equals the works of people like, Stravinsky, Mozart, Schoenberg, Bach etc.

Thank you for your advice. Recently, I have made some new discoveries in this research: the change of mainstream critics' attitude towards progressive rock at that time may have less to do with music itself and more to do with social factors, so I may consider discourse analysis of them later
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Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

Ever read Simon (brother of Fred) Frith's 'Sociology of Rock' (1978)?  It deals with exactly this issue.  I recall the fighting between Yes and SAHB fans at Loftus Road in 1975 as being class induced but maybe that was due to an over-zealous journalist... Good luck with the research!

Thank you very much,I'll refer it 
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Flash Allen: "But in the end, it seemed that mainstream critics still regard progressive rock as a form of popular music rather than classical music. (I see little mention of progressive rock in the history of classical music.)"

That is because most, if not all, progressive rock is not on the same level of the well-known classical composers. Really not even close. I make my living as a music teacher and I have a masters degree in theory and composition. Some progressive rock carries window dressing similar to classical music, but there is nothing in the world of prog rock that equals the works of people like, Stravinsky, Mozart, Schoenberg, Bach etc.
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Ever read Simon (brother of Fred) Frith's 'Sociology of Rock' (1978)?  It deals with exactly this issue.  I recall the fighting between Yes and SAHB fans at Loftus Road in 1975 as being class induced but maybe that was due to an over-zealous journalist... Good luck with the research!
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


The concepts of high art and low art have been around for thousands of years (with the ancient Greeks and one also finds concepts of it in the "far east" and other places I'm sure). It wouldn't have been a luxury with more than one course I took in university not to spend any time reading up on that had I wished to do well. It was actually of interest to me and I did delve into that in essays (which related to film and literature, not music, although I did touch on that too come to think of it when I mentioned Alex's (of A Clockwork Orange) love of Beethoven in one paper and contrasted it with perceived "low art" and working class aspects.

That blend of high culture and low culture has been referenced in regards to art rock (sometimes used synonymously with progressive rock and with art pop).

I wrote this in a pop music topic at one time: "...some art pop artists, progressive pop artists, experimental pop artists, or avant pop artists (all can be conflated) sought to deconstruct pop music, to marry the popular with the esoteric, to elevate pop from its lowly roots to a serious art-form, or to create a dialectic between the low art and high art, a sort of conversation and synthesis of two worlds. Some of it is a celebration of the low, some of it is a commentary on the low arts and popular culture. Some is very conceptual. Some artists tried to buck the trends, played with genre bending, form and structure, and even set itself up against the mainstream and the industrial nature of pop manufacture, one might say Pop in Opposition (PIO/ Avant Pop)...." I was referencing/ remembering various things I've read over the years there with my own thoughts. I could substitute Prog there methinks.

From wikipedia on art rock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_rock It uses Ellen Willis:

"From the early sixties … there was a counter-tradition in rock and roll that had much more in common with high art—in particular avant-garde art—than the ballyhooed art-rock synthesis [progressive rock]; it involved more or less consciously using the basic formal canons of rock and roll as material (much as pop artists used mass art in general) and refining, elaborating, playing off that material to produce … rockand-roll art. While art rock was implicitly based on the claim that rock and roll was or could be as worthy as more established art forms, rock-and-roll art came out of an obsessive commitment to the language of rock and roll and an equally obsessive disdain for those who rejected that language or wanted it watered down, made easier … the new wave has inherited the counter-tradition.[14]"

I once asked, Speaking of art, would Prog be considered high art, low art, or mid-art? Or is it, perhaps, better to think, "It's only prog rock and roll, but I like it?" Never mind, I'm thinking of "stoner rock" -- now that's "high", but is it art? .

I think that some progressive rock artists took their music very seriously and did hope to elevate to so-called high art, to be taken seriously as art music (sophisticated), but I tend to look at it more that they drew on high-art music while still being rooted in popular music. Prog is a fusion of genres and influences with a rock (popular or low art) foundation. It has not been seen at the "level" of academic music or art music by serious" critics and academics generally, I believe -- not taken so seriously. I think RIO/Avant prog often comes closest to so-called modern classical music (Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, Aranis....)

I wish I had good references to give you. Good luck with it, and welcome to PA. I hope you can find some time to visit here casually. :) I am interested in your project.


Thank you very much for your understanding and detailed reply.Heart

As a fan of prog, these are the questions I've always wondered. Now I finally have the opportunity to confront it head-on in my doctoral thesis -- as a researcher. I'm not trying to make a value judgment for prog, but rather to show if any of this is real, how it was made, and why.

By the way, I wonder what is the title of your article on Beethoven mentioned in the first paragraph? I'd like to refer to it~Clap
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Thank you for all of your responses.

Again, I apologize for my choice of words (these terms are just my current ideas and may be adjusted in my subsequent research).

Indeed, as mentioned above, these issues in prog are complex and difficult to articulate. What I would like to do is to explore these questions from the perspective of a researcher. I hope to present a more objective picture of these issues.(I'll try my best in following study though it's pretty difficult).

Thank you again for your reminder and suggestionEmbarrassed


Edited by Flash Allen - February 02 2022 at 19:28
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Blending high culture with low culture was the aim of the post-modern movement. In a sense you could say that progressive rock was the first post-modern music genre. 
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