Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - "Progressive Punk", a new sub-genre on PA?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

"Progressive Punk", a new sub-genre on PA?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Progressive Punk", a new sub-genre on PA?
    Posted: December 09 2021 at 09:24
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
by this logic then there is no progressive rock music as it was made up by the media lol
I have no issues with a "movement" whatsoever, but I do when we think that it is GOD and we discuss it like it is the only thing on earth. 

I think, it's surely best to consider labels as first and foremost terms which somehow origin in historical movements, but are not equal to these movements. By doing that, they are practical and can be used in relation to bands formed much later than the original movements, and only connected to these movements by playing a kind of music corresponding to the original movements.

Labels as terms can be used in relation to somehow different movements, as well. For instance, if simply define Jazz-Rock as one or another kind of Jazz and Rock fusion, we can use this label both in relation to music mostly rooted in Jazz, or mostly rooted in Rock, or maybe just being right between them.


Edited by David_D - December 09 2021 at 09:39
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17527 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2021 at 06:55
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
by this logic then there is no progressive rock music as it was made up by the media lol

Hi,

Can't say ... but I remember Dean (sorry if it wasn't, but I think it was) posting a poster that apparently was about a concert and called it "progressive", and one of the bands I remember seeing in the list was The Edgar Broughton Band.

I have no issues with a "movement" whatsoever, but I do when we think that it is GOD and we discuss it like it is the only thing on earth. And worse, we rely on books that were so badly translated that you would throw up, not to mention that most of it was interpreted as "old news" 300 years plus after the fact. We're not doing that to "progressive" music, because too many fans (even here) don't believe any history existed ... just some bands/hits out of the blue! 

"Progressive" was more about the expansion of rock music, similar to jazz in those days which exploded when the electric guitar took off in the mid 60's, and took on a different "tune" which separated it from the stuff of before.

The problem here is this ... Light My Fire was a long cut ... but you know there was a small version for AM radio that was just barely 3 minutes or so. In other words, the media itself, made sure it came alive, and the media itself went on to kill it!

"Progressive" was an extension of an artistic scene, and its work is felt and seen in many other disciplines, something that I try to show, but is ignored, I think mostly because folks only look at the material as "songs" or "hits" and not music, or an art for that time and place. This "scene" is very visible in film and theater, and even goes further back than rock music. It didn't start with Elvis and Chuck ... it was there before but not shown or played because the movie studios owned all the copyright and rights to publishing anything, thus their "star" was more important, than anything popular, specially if it was of a different color! (see Tom Dowd's special for some amazing history going back to WW2 of which he was a part!)

The main issue, is how we do not differentiate between worth while materials and just the fun stuff that Gonzo was doing (which I like to a point and was more of a finger than most folks realize!), but all of a sudden the image of the crazee was more important than the message, and we get stuck on the best one ... the medium is the message, or the message is the medium! Most folks, since they love their top ten, would say the medium is the message and screw the artist, and this is the sad fact of the mememe generation of the 70's that didn't know the difference between an artistic piece of work and everything else ... (see Patti Smith's book) ... without any meaning whatsoever.

But we lost sight of the one thing, and it is specified about the  punk scene ... when so much of the work was much doggy doo about nothing, but we got stuck on a couple of songs! If that was the point, I could handle it but it was not ... all of a sudden many of these folks were being taken like they were some kind of high level artistes, and sadly (specially for them) there was not enough there to show for it, and it dies just as fast, if not drugs, then everything else ... 

But the hard part? Penelope Spheris specials on the LA scene, are insane and amazing ... there was something there, but it was all kinda hidden and thrown under the rug as senseless music because of its image. Again, the media killed it all again when it started it, although many think that the underground magazines in LA (there were a lot!) were the ones that got it started. But the ugliest part? Seeing the LA Times give one punk band a glorious review of their concert, and the bootlegs showed it was total utter crap! 


Edited by moshkito - December 09 2021 at 07:02
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2021 at 03:19
I really have to agree with you there. 

Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2021 at 02:59
^ LOL It would be fair to say that if contemporary Progressive Rock was in as healthy a state as claimed by many on these forums there really would be no need for threads like this
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2021 at 02:08
Oh, FFS............ what next ? "Progressive ice cream van tunes ? " 

Are you all that desperate ?

Edited by Davesax1965 - December 09 2021 at 02:09

Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28070 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2021 at 23:52
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
Neo Prog (basically New Prog) was an actual thing that happened in the 80's. Prog initially gave way to punk and then sprung back a bit lead by a new wave of bands. It wasn't made up by PA and so there is no reason to pretend it doesn't exist (as you seem to be doing).

However something like 'Eclectic' is totally made up and fake. It was never a thing. Although there is a ridiculous number of fake sub genres on PA, Neo Prog is not one of them!

Hi,

You know by my film's posting on the other threads, that I do not go by "media" when it comes to the arts. Prog never made way to Punk ... but it was the media, and things like Melody Maker and New Music Express that made sure that they were "right" and sold magazines, because they could not find anything else to say about ELP and YES that had not already been said!

The media, is the worst and tends to follow the lemmings idea ... that little game at the start was grand fun, let me tell you and I died laughing many times! But I continued getting and playing Prog and a lot of other things, and if you check the history of Space Pirate Radio, it had not stopped either, so I was not the only one that was invaded by the controlling media that had also bought out the free form (and excellent) FM station that Space Pirate Radio was on and continued for many more years, and is STILL ON these days, which is showing us ... YET AGAIN ... that new music and new forms, NEVER DIES and the same goes for the arts, but we have not learnt all this time ... to get off the commercial train! And until we do, finding and getting more from new folks is very limited to the same sound, or worse ... another sub-genre that sounds the same and unplugged has so little music that you would not spend a single cent on it!

by this logic then there is no progressive rock music as it was made up by the media lol
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17527 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2021 at 07:41
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
Neo Prog (basically New Prog) was an actual thing that happened in the 80's. Prog initially gave way to punk and then sprung back a bit lead by a new wave of bands. It wasn't made up by PA and so there is no reason to pretend it doesn't exist (as you seem to be doing).

However something like 'Eclectic' is totally made up and fake. It was never a thing. Although there is a ridiculous number of fake sub genres on PA, Neo Prog is not one of them!

Hi,

You know by my film's posting on the other threads, that I do not go by "media" when it comes to the arts. Prog never made way to Punk ... but it was the media, and things like Melody Maker and New Music Express that made sure that they were "right" and sold magazines, because they could not find anything else to say about ELP and YES that had not already been said!

The media, is the worst and tends to follow the lemmings idea ... that little game at the start was grand fun, let me tell you and I died laughing many times! But I continued getting and playing Prog and a lot of other things, and if you check the history of Space Pirate Radio, it had not stopped either, so I was not the only one that was invaded by the controlling media that had also bought out the free form (and excellent) FM station that Space Pirate Radio was on and continued for many more years, and is STILL ON these days, which is showing us ... YET AGAIN ... that new music and new forms, NEVER DIES and the same goes for the arts, but we have not learnt all this time ... to get off the commercial train! And until we do, finding and getting more from new folks is very limited to the same sound, or worse ... another sub-genre that sounds the same and unplugged has so little music that you would not spend a single cent on it!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 7274 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2021 at 23:58
I once auditioned for a Chicago power-pop/punk band called The Marquis' (sic) in 1980. 

My first audition was jamming with the guitarist, a chap named Todd Dawes.  

I threw the bass line from King Crimson's "Larks Tongues in Aspic Part Two" to him in order to get us started. 

He responded in kind, and we had a marvelous jam session!!  He was/is a remarkable guitar player, quite capable of playing anything. 

However, I decided I'd look like hell in tight leather pants and passed on the position. 

Punk and prog fit together like ham and eggs.  
I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
Back to Top
questionsneverknown View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 22 2009
Location: Ultima Thule
Status: Offline
Points: 602 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote questionsneverknown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2021 at 16:38
There's no contradiction in this for me. 

As has already been said, the overlap is definitely more in the terrain of what's been called post-punk. That, for me, was always the more experimental, exploratory path of punk. As opposed to the 'back to the roots of rock 'n' roll', 'just play, don't think about it!' branch of punk (the lineage of the Ramones, Sham 69 and Exploited), the post-punk groups rejected the orthodoxy that took over punk all too quickly, but grabbed inspiration from punk's raw and undisciplined side while playing with new instrumentation and novel forms. PIL rather than Pistols. So, yes, to the likes of: Wire, Pere Ubu, The Pop Group, Stranglers, Throbbing Gristle, Magazine and A Certain Ratio. Punk groups who also heard Beefheart and Krautrock in the backs of their heads.

I do remember bringing this up ten years ago and getting a right pouncing!
The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love

The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough.

--Robyn Hitchcock
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28070 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2021 at 16:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

I wish we would stop with this commercialized attitude about another sub-genre. What we need is a better, and clearer definition of "progressive music" so we stop worrying if it sounds like ___________ for a sub-genre. 

At that point, it would be progressive or not, although there will always be those bands that fit and don't fit and end up with some "neo" or other near them! Although I really think that "neo" should not be a sub and instead done away with, if the band is progressive enough! The "neo" kinda tells you that it likely is not close to the good ones that fit the bizarre description and definition which is based on 4 or 5 bands, and no one else from around the world ... because it was flat and everyone fell out of it! Tongue

Neo Prog (basically New Prog) was an actual thing that happened in the 80's. Prog initially gave way to punk and then sprung back a bit lead by a new wave of bands. It wasn't made up by PA and so there is no reason to pretend it doesn't exist (as you seem to be doing).

However something like 'Eclectic' is totally made up and fake. It was never a thing. Although there is a ridiculous number of fake sub genres on PA, Neo Prog is not one of them!
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2021 at 09:17
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Well, tszirmay, here can I only say that I communicate what I find good to do.


Are  you using Google translator? I thought all Danes spoke perfect English!

English lesson

It would be more natural to say:

Well, tszirmay, all i can say is that i respond in a way that i see fit


I promise to do it better. Embarrassed 


Edited by David_D - December 07 2021 at 16:02
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2021 at 08:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
I wish we would stop with this commercialized attitude about another sub-genre. 

Well, my intention with this thread is certainly not commercial, moshkito, and if a new sub-genre that should be just due to some  advantagies both for the musicians, fans/aficionados and Prog.

But I'm even not sure what to think about it myself, as "Prog" has expanded so much so, I'm concerned about its integrity.


Edited by David_D - December 07 2021 at 12:48
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15253 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2021 at 08:15
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Well, tszirmay, here can I only say that I communicate what I find good to do.


Are  you using Google translator? I thought all Danes spoke perfect English!

English lesson

It would be more natural to say:

Well, tszirmay, all i can say is that i respond in a way that i see fit

OR

Yo, bro, i'll dress up like a chicken and lay eggs where i like LOL

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17527 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2021 at 08:02
Hi,

I wish we would stop with this commercialized attitude about another sub-genre. What we need is a better, and clearer definition of "progressive music" so we stop worrying if it sounds like ___________ for a sub-genre. 

At that point, it would be progressive or not, although there will always be those bands that fit and don't fit and end up with some "neo" or other near them! Although I really think that "neo" should not be a sub and instead done away with, if the band is progressive enough! The "neo" kinda tells you that it likely is not close to the good ones that fit the bizarre description and definition which is based on 4 or 5 bands, and no one else from around the world ... because it was flat and everyone fell out of it! Tongue
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2021 at 13:41

Well, tszirmay, here can I only say that I communicate what I find good to do.

Edited by David_D - December 06 2021 at 13:41
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
tszirmay View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2021 at 11:16
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Sorry for offending the authority, but if age is a part of the argument, tszirmay, I can tell you that I'm not younger than you're, and I could keep on about my merits, as well. Star

I am not offended at all, never was actually as I am still a historian but not a music journalist as all current "journalism" has tumbled down the ladder of respectable professions,  just one step above politician or used car salesman Confused Arguing is fine but you reply with obviousness , as if opinion matters more than the content ....anyway back to reading Talleyrand again ...Wink
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2021 at 10:56

Sorry for offending the authority, but if age is a part of the argument, tszirmay, I can tell you that I'm not younger than you're, and I could keep on about my merits, as well. Star

Edited by David_D - December 06 2021 at 11:08
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
tszirmay View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2021 at 10:48
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

finding comfort in labelling should be a personal decision and not an imposed guideline as , more often than not, it is not even correct Confused

"finding comfort in labelling should be a personal decision and not an imposed guideline"
I agree here, but people don't have to use the labelling if they don't want to.

"more often than not, it is not even correct"
Might be so, but that is a separate matter.

Thank you for clarifying my comments, I am still very young and very inexperienced, especially regarding music and language, as I often put my foot in my mouth. Shocked
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15134 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2021 at 10:43
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

finding comfort in labelling should be a personal decision and not an imposed guideline as , more often than not, it is not even correct Confused

"finding comfort in labelling should be a personal decision and not an imposed guideline"
I agree here, but people don't have to use the labelling if they don't want to.

"more often than not, it is not even correct"
Edit:
Might be so, but it can be a separate matter, unless it's just difficult to do "correct"/agree on, then, it's of course a problem however you look at it.


Edited by David_D - December 06 2021 at 10:51
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
tszirmay View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2021 at 10:29
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:



Thank you, Cristi, I think that I got the point now - even it's still difficult for me to consider the practical meaning of it. Smile

- But I guess that I only can say again: People have different needs, it's as simple as that.

And that is also my point, Needs is one thing , but finding comfort in labelling should be a personal decision and not an imposed guideline as , more often than not, it is not even correct Confused


Edited by tszirmay - December 06 2021 at 10:29
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.190 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.