"Freedom" thread or something

I agree fully, the "recovery" has been pathetic, thanks to the gov's inaction. It's better than austerity though. I saw last month US inflation dipped negative, this is astounding. Despite all the Fed's might and unemployment a good bit below 6% we're barely fighting off deflation. 

Ah I see, well that is fair. I do think the multi national linking does make it all a bit sticky. Yeah recession is when trouble really arises, and if the intention was well off countries would just help out the others, that deff is a poorly thought out plan. Esp since, one could argue, it basically is turning Greece into a debt slave to Germany!

Yeah no doubt about that. Zimbabwe did have a lot of things wrong, but I agree overall. It may sound nutty, I still think I'm fairly moderate. As discussed before it would be more efficient, maybe even cheaper, and more beneficial for sure to directly employ people, and spend on infrastructure, R&D and etc  than more and more welfare. Scaling down the massive military budget wouldn't be a bad idea for sure. 

Yup! Zimbabwe's only solution to their unholy hyperinflation was to simply abandon their currency and use others! 

I don't think it's in our future or any western country (or most for that matter) unless they implement a horrible land reform policy, get involved with a war, and run the printing press irresponsibly. A collapse of supply PLUS too much money! Also their lack of many institutions and horrible corruption. Despite what some here may think, I do feel printing money can be a problem of course, just there is some misunderstanding about QE vs tossing buckets out there Especially since we don't have to pay off warlords to keep em loyal or to elites/companies to funnel money to our gov for their blood diamond mining

Well the Eurozone isn't libertarian of course, as you say they have large welfare states, but feel free to correct me: Isn't the Euro kind of like a gold standard? I'm talking just monetary here and forgetting welfare.

All the countries that adopted the Euro are no longer issuers, but users (like US states, companies, households) and thus become bound by the "rules"? Like they have to watch spending, can't use QE (though I am very neutral on that policy) it basically ties your hands, as a gold standard is intended to do. It's weird since it's multi country, and thus causes even bigger problems like having to "deal with" Greece to keep yourself stable, or Greece being forced to accept austerity measures from Germany. Seems to me like tying all our arms together then when slips and falls we all thrash around to stand up awkwardly

Anywho, I thought that was the difference between an issuer and user of currency, policy space. The US or Japan can run bigger deficits and do more in general, our limitation being only inflation/resources. Also there's been no speculative attacks on the US or Japan, interest rates fell and have stayed record low despite theory saying they'd skyrocket. And isn't all this giving up control of your currency, more or less a gold standard? Or pegging to another, it all kind of is the same?

You are right, Central Banks are political despite some, like the Fed, being designed to keep em independent. I also think Friedman was kind of wrong in his views on monetary policy. To be fair I think so are Keynesians who believed in QE or those that think tinkering will work, or there should be a "dual mandate" which the ECB doesn't have. I'd say the Fed should be concerned with: Regulating, as well as maintaining an elastic currency and price stability....zero concern should be had for employment. That can be left to the gov, which is more effective imo. But not more welfare and "leaky bucket" stimuli but smart spending. 

Thank you Pat. 

Quick note on Utopia: You are 100% correct, there is no utopia. Maybe one day you, MoM, will stop arguing/waiting for one. 

Anyway, Pat beat me to it (didn't think he even poked around here anymore!) but yeah, sorry this just doesn't make much sense man. You seem to mock my "based on reality" statement but...what do you want then? 

A world devoid of looking at results? Or if I misunderstood you need to elaborate. 

I'm not sure where inequality came in, but ANY system is gunna have imbalance and inequality, I am not sure how you can say otherwise. I don't disagree gov creates problem, mainly that they socialize the losses of certain segments, as well as allowing sectors like healthcare and education to run wild, and seems to be allowing a rigid society to form. Not to sound like a conservative here but the US was founded on the idea that wealth can turnover, the only aristocracy was one of merit and we, so far, have prevented an aristocracy from forming: be it trust busting, letting depressions wipe out wealth, moderate collectivism and philanthropy but we can't rely on the last. 

As Hayek pointed out in his famous book, Fascism WAS an offshoot of socialism...adverse to free market capitalism as well as communism. So I know you won't accept this, but it's telling to me much of the world abandoned the laissez faire ideals for a mixed economy, and accepted you need some "buffer" from the "excesses" of capitalism to allow it to thrive. Otherwise, it does break. If you let it break bad enough people will turn to socialism or communism or fascism...I'd prefer a mixed economy, a capitalist one with some degree of collectivism over those alternatives. 

I  learnt the other day that Zimbabwe actually accepts a few foreign currencies as local legal tender, including the Indian Rupee!    The reason is their terribly debased local currency is now worthless.  Foretaste of the future?

We've had 30+ years now of testing and it seems to all point to: incorrect. In my book. 

Taxes on the top have been coming down down down, especially on capital, more deregulation, more slashing of services and I'm sorry but I don't see how things have been better, seem worse. Brownback even had his "experiment" in Kansas which led to: no growth spurt, just a massive deficit that got his states credit downgraded and he's had to cut $50 mill to education to pay for it now. 

This whole euro crisis is in a way an indictment of libertarian econ. This common currency behaves like the gold standard, it removes the authority of a gov to "do much" and restrains what can be spent. Well that seems to be falling over like a house of cards...The strength of Germany seems to be holding it together, which only comes from their export power thanks to forcing exports on the EU The austerity (word may not be used but it's what libertarians basically call for) has caused a disaster. 

Japan slight growth spurt was flipped back to recession after their sales tax hike (aka austerity)   Sorry but I just couldn't believe in it anymore. Reality has proven it incorrect and in fact shown the true results: Allowing those with money and power to just grab more of it, using the power structure to entrench themselves and create social strife. All the non elites of society seem ready to kill each other, some scary forces are slowly creeping up in Europe, the middle classes of some countries like Ireland and Greece are simply moving away...the people, those with money, that libertarianism/right wing want to cater to are simply jumping ship. As always I'll be open minded, I've changed twice, but I'd really like to hear how libertarians are right on economics. If you want to stick to "we need a true free market" mantra, well best of luck...I think you are waiting for something nonexistent.