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Topic ClosedMagma´s ideology controversy. Read this!
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fuxi View Drop Down
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Points: 2476 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2010 at 02:31
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:



Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:


Back to topic again: I can understand why Magma get fascist/nazi associations by some. Their music is a bit Horst Wessel at times, they have covers which may be associated with a totalitarian political belief. Their Kobaian language is a bit mystic and their society is almost like Free Masons.

Hence....... Magma = A  Nazi band. Logical !!

 
It's not that simple. It seems like there actually were Nazi elements in Vander's history. See this quote from Daevid Allen:"The fact that Christian Vander had swastika flags all over his bedroom
and pictures of Hitler and would leap up and do kind of imitation
Hitler speeches in the middle of his drum solo didn't seem to faze him
all that much. It fazed everybody else. But Giorgio just loved the
music, and loved the cultural impact of the music."The question is: were these just aspects of an excentric persona Vander built for himself or were signs of a genuine ideological orientation of his? I assume the first answer is the true one, but we'll probably never know for sure.


The question is also: "How reliable is Daevid Allen's testimony?"

Anyway, I sympathize with Magma fans who are hurt by all the allegations. I have a similar problem with Kenso, who I consider to be the best & most original prog band of the past 25 years. They've got some tracks with titles like "Mediterranean and Aryan" or "The Fourth Reich". They even have entitled an entire album SPARTA. Does this mean they have Nazi sympathies, or just that their leader (Yoshimasa Shimizu) had been reading about such matters? The music gives no indications either way; it's almost entirely instrumental. If anyone out there knows more about this matter, please let me know!

Edited by fuxi - January 19 2010 at 02:31
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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 22:25
And was the point? Vander is or not a symphatic person to Nazism?




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Points: 148 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 20:35
Well said, Harmonium.ro.

But even if it *is* just an aspect of an eccentric persona, how can he justify creating a persona that trivialises the death and humilation of millions of people....especially when the persona is created, at least in some small part, to generate profit?
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 19:47
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:


Back to topic again: I can understand why Magma get fascist/nazi associations by some. Their music is a bit Horst Wessel at times, they have covers which may be associated with a totalitarian political belief. Their Kobaian language is a bit mystic and their society is almost like Free Masons.

Hence....... Magma = A  Nazi band. Logical !!

 


It's not that simple. It seems like there actually were Nazi elements in Vander's history. See this quote from Daevid Allen:

"The fact that Christian Vander had swastika flags all over his bedroom and pictures of Hitler and would leap up and do kind of imitation Hitler speeches in the middle of his drum solo didn't seem to faze him all that much. It fazed everybody else. But Giorgio just loved the music, and loved the cultural impact of the music."

The question is: were these just aspects of an excentric persona Vander built for himself or were signs of a genuine ideological orientation of his? I assume the first answer is the true one, but we'll probably never know for sure.


Edited by harmonium.ro - January 18 2010 at 19:48
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:52
Vander sounds like Vader, who was a bit like Hitler. It fits!
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:48
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Alberto Muñoz Alberto Muñoz wrote:

Also for a footnote Albert Speer desings the world cup football Throphy


No he didn't. The original Jules Rimet trophy was designed by Abel Lafleur and was presented to the World Cup winners until 1970.

During World War II, the trophy was held by 1938 winners Italy. Ottorino Barassi, the Italian vice-president of FIFA who secretly transported the trophy from a bank in Rome and hid it in a shoe-box under his bed to prevent the Nazis from taking it.

The trophy awarded from 1974 onwards was designed by Silvio Gazzaniga.

How do I know this ? because I'm a sad man whose life is but an empty husk....
 
Thanks for the clarification




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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:46
Originally posted by Alberto Muñoz Alberto Muñoz wrote:

Also for a footnote Albert Speer desings the world cup football Throphy


No he didn't. The original Jules Rimet trophy was designed by Abel Lafleur and was presented to the World Cup winners until 1970.

During World War II, the trophy was held by 1938 winners Italy. Ottorino Barassi, the Italian vice-president of FIFA who secretly transported the trophy from a bank in Rome and hid it in a shoe-box under his bed to prevent the Nazis from taking it.

The trophy awarded from 1974 onwards was designed by Silvio Gazzaniga.

How do I know this ? because I'm a sad man whose life is but an empty husk....
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Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:22
Also for a footnote Albert Speer desings the world cup football Throphy




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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 17:00
There wasn't a point, I was just saying.
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:47
Originally posted by James James wrote:

Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by moebius moebius wrote:



I disagree. This fan is hurt  because Magma/Vander uses nazirelated quotes and images. Well, I assume  they do this to create their complex art concerning war, destruction, good, evil and so on.

He demands an apology because he's been exposed to an image of an Albert Speer building, and what might be an extract from a Goebbles speech! He doesn't seem to take into consideration about how or why its used, or that its presented within a context. This is nothing to come out and apologize for.




Ah but Albert Speer wasn't convicted of any war crimes whatsoever and died in the 1970s.




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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:22
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Originally posted by moebius moebius wrote:



I disagree. This fan is hurt  because Magma/Vander uses nazirelated quotes and images. Well, I assume  they do this to create their complex art concerning war, destruction, good, evil and so on.

He demands an apology because he's been exposed to an image of an Albert Speer building, and what might be an extract from a Goebbles speech! He doesn't seem to take into consideration about how or why its used, or that its presented within a context. This is nothing to come out and apologize for.




Ah but Albert Speer wasn't convicted of any war crimes whatsoever and died in the 1970s.

But anyhow... let's get back on topic. Big smile
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:19
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

That is most definate a fridge magnet I endorse and will purchase.

Back to topic again: I can understand why Magma get fascist/nazi associations by some. Their music is a bit Horst Wessel at times, they have covers which may be associated with a totalitarian political belief. Their Kobaian language is a bit mystic and their society is almost like Free Masons.

Hence....... Magma = A  Nazi band. Logical !!

I remember this type of thinking, and I was very much guilty myself in this type of thinking, from the Black Metal scene in Norway. They too were called Nazi scum and got tonnes of bad press from this. And that was even before anyone in the Norwegian Black Metal scene even uttered a single word. The scene was branded as Nazis just because of the music, the clothes, the names and because they did not conform with a liberal humanistic ideology. Hence......... Black Metal = Nazis. Logical !!

It is just what we have become. 


 



Having read interviews with some members of those Black Metal bands, I beg to differ. Their ideas, though not 'Nazi' in a strict sense, were definitely racist, xenophobic and rather violent overall. And then, what about the church burnings - some of which destroyed some valuable ancient buildings? Not the work of mild-mannered individuals, that's for sure.
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Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:13

That is most definate a fridge magnet I endorse and will purchase.

Back to topic again: I can understand why Magma get fascist/nazi associations by some. Their music is a bit Horst Wessel at times, they have covers which may be associated with a totalitarian political belief. Their Kobaian language is a bit mystic and their society is almost like Free Masons.

Hence....... Magma = A  Nazi band. Logical !!

I remember this type of thinking, and I was very much guilty myself in this type of thinking, from the Black Metal scene in Norway. They too were called Nazi scum and got tonnes of bad press from this. And that was even before anyone in the Norwegian Black Metal scene even uttered a single word. The scene was branded as Nazis just because of the music, the clothes, the names and because they did not conform with a liberal humanistic ideology. Hence......... the Black Metal scene = Nazis. Logical !!

It is just what we have become. 

(Disclaimer: I do not accuse Magma or the Black Metal scene of being Nazi) 


 



Edited by toroddfuglesteg - January 18 2010 at 16:15
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:08
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I'd like to bring up the case of one of my favourite writers - HP Lovecraft. He was openly racist (and a lot of his work, as well as his letters, support this fact), and for a time he was a keen admirer of Hitler. Knowing this, I still manage to enjoy reading Lovecraft's stories, though obviously the more racist passages make me cringe.


Or take Céline. In spite of his disgusting anti-semitism he wrote one of the greatest French novels of the twentieth century. Or Ezra Pound. His support for Italian Fascism was plain stupid - but he wrote a great deal of highly enjoyable poetry!

we should also keep in mind that history is always the history of the winners. which means they usually depict themselves as choirboys and the losers as black as they can. mark that I am not denying the Nazi crimes. but I am an historian and know too well that the hands of the winners are blood-stained as well

Killing Nazi's is a bloody business, but someone has to do it.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 16:01
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

 
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

 

And what about titles such as "Instant Kitten" and "Instant Pussy"?Wink


Most mice regards cats as the ultimate terror = evil fascists = Nazist = Holocaust. 

Everything depends on how each and individual react when confronted with a sound/picture/smell.




I have a magnet on my fridge that says, "People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life"Wink...
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Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:59
 
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

 

And what about titles such as "Instant Kitten" and "Instant Pussy"?Wink


Most mice regards cats as the ultimate terror = evil fascists = Nazist = Holocaust. 

Everything depends on how each and individual react when confronted with a sound/picture/smell.
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:56
Originally posted by James James wrote:

There was also a really bad computer game called M.D.K. LOL
Hey! I would think you would be the last person to trash talk Bioware.
if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:50
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:


 
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

 

I've always wondered if the sleeve of Little Red Record wasn't meant as parody.

I doubt it.

Back in those days, laughter was banned as the subversive middle class thing it was. 




Er... How do you explain those matching moles on the cover of the band's FIRST album?

("Does anybody here remember LAUGHTER?" )


And what about titles such as "Instant Kitten" and "Instant Pussy"?Wink
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:41
Originally posted by moebius moebius wrote:



I disagree. This fan is hurt  because Magma/Vander uses nazirelated quotes and images. Well, I assume  they do this to create their complex art concerning war, destruction, good, evil and so on.

He demands an apology because he's been exposed to an image of an Albert Speer building, and what might be an extract from a Goebbles speech! He doesn't seem to take into consideration about how or why its used, or that its presented within a context. This is nothing to come out and apologize for.


Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Points: 2476 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2010 at 15:21
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:


 
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

 

I've always wondered if the sleeve of Little Red Record wasn't meant as parody.

I doubt it.

Back in those days, laughter was banned as the subversive middle class thing it was. 




Er... How do you explain those matching moles on the cover of the band's FIRST album?

("Does anybody here remember LAUGHTER?" )
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