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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 13:17
^ That is an interesting read. Thanks for sharing it Nets.

There have always been problems with Palestinian leadership, and it's a tragedy for the peace process that Hamas were elected to power. There are gains to be made by both sides using propoganda and portraying themselves as the sole victims in the conflict. The situation is complicated, and I fear one without end or solution. A two state solution seems like a positive idea, but it wouldn't alter the fact that much of the Arab world wants an end to Israel. It also wouldn't alter the fact that there are rabid right wing Jewish elements who see expansion beyond current borders - however ill defined - as essential to establish Israel as the world leaders after the 'apocalypse war' Thankfully adherence to religous prophecy is not 'apparently' the goal of the Israeli government. That said, western style democracies are able to dress up their more cotraversial agendas in a far more palatable and marketable form than their Arab/Muslim counterparts.

Peace may be the ultimate goal of innocent people on both sides, but these folk dont call the shots. Even in a democracy, power corrupts and extreme elements will persist on both sides. I fear for the future of that region.

I agree, to an extent, that the term 'Humanitarian crisis' is used alot by the UN in relation to the Palestinian position. Their predicament is clearly not on the scale of say, that witnessed in Darfur or Rwanda, but the potential is there for the crisis to reach a point, where damage to civillian infrastructure could lead to a complete collapse of the PA. That would not solve anything. It would merely inspire more terrorism. I believe Israel needs to do everything in its power to maintain and promote the moral high ground. Terrorism is, after all, abhorant in all its forms. Their current action undermines their credibility IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 10:33
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.     BBC Report

 
The UN is ALWAYS warning about the latest humanitarian crisis in Gaza.  No money for food, but money for Qassam rockets and automatic rifles?  Please. 


I dont think money is the issue. It's more a case of food and medical supplies not getting through. Attacking civilian infrastructure is not going to achieve anything but a potential worsening of the problem.

Besides Nets, it's not the entire population of Gaza building rockets and dealing out death. Whether you like to admit it or not the extremists are a minority.

As for the rockets, I wouldn't be surprised if their component parts were donated from an outside source. Syria perhaps.


    
 
 
Good point, the Syria-Iran axis is responsible for much of the terror, they are the ones who control Hizbullah, and partially Hamas.  Whether or not the extremists are a minority, a democratically elected Hamas party is a tacit approval from the Palestinian people of their tactics. 
 
Food and medical supplies don't get through because every time Israel opens the Rafah crossing, they have to close it because of a terror threat.  The crossings are frequent targets, and while I sympathize with the majority of the Pales population suffering, its understandable to see why the borders are always closed.  I think the term humanitarian crisis is overused in this conflict, while I don't doubt there are temporary ones, the UN basically considers it a continuous one, which doesn't make sense in light of the fact that Palestinians have a life expectancy comprable to that in the USA.
 
I thought this was an interesting editorial; a critique of Palestinian leadership, not the people:
 
    
Quote

Careful what you hope for

 

Now that they've got a Jewish-free Gaza, why are the Palestinians doing everything in their power to bring back the IDF?
Andrew Friedman

Immediately following the withdrawal of all Israeli civilian and military personnel last summer, Palestinian spokespeople around the world set out on a strange (and largely unsuccessful) PR campaign to convince the world that Gaza was somehow still occupied.

 To be sure, Palestinian history is full of strange claims about Israel (such as charges that Israeli soldiers pass out poison candy to Palestinian children), but this was surely one of the strangest. How could Gaza be "occupied" with no Jews? What is the nature of this claim?

 Another question: Since the disengagement, Palestinians have done everything in their power to force Israel to re-enter Gaza. As Bethlehem-based human rights lawyer Shawqi Issa wrote , "the Palestinians must force Israel to re-occupy Gaza."

 Doesn't make sense

But it just doesn't make sense. Israel's presence in the West Bank and Gaza has been the centerpiece in Palestinian claims for years. Palestinian factions don't agree on much, but the notion that an Israeli withdrawal would facilitate the construction of a Palestinian state has been one thing they could all agree on.
 
Israelis of many stripes have also lined up to back such a withdrawal, saying such a move was not only the only way to ensure Israel's Jewish, democratic nature, but would also to encourage the Palestinians to give up dreams of Greater Palestine and finally make peace with Israel. "Give them something to lose, and they won't be so fast to gamble with it," went the argument underlying the process.
 
But a funny thing happened on the way to the peace: The Palestinians didn't buy it. Israel made significant withdrawals from disputed land in 1994, 95, 96 and 97, and by the time Benjamin Netanyahu was elected in May, 1996, well over 90 percent of Palestinian civilians lived under Palestinian civil jurisdiction. But the number of terror attacks rose consistently, forcing Israeli to increase arrests, security closures and eventually targeted killings, in direct relation to the amount of territory given over to Palestinian control. The whole picture seems to suggest a concerted effort on the part of the Palestinian leadership to ensure Israel maintain some control over Gaza.
Two possibilities

There are several possible explanations for this phenomenon. The most obvious is that the absence of an Israeli occupier places a tremendous burden on the Palestinian leadership to produce results. Since the "naqba" in 1948, and especially since the Six Day War in 1967, Israel has always been there as a scapegoat for every Palestinian or international problem imaginable, from September 11 to the death of Yasser Arafat and everything in between.

 Now that the Israel is out of Gaza and the "occupation" is no longer, the Palestinians are in a bind. They've got the resources to build the state they say they want (per capita the PA receives more foreign aid than any other country in the world), meaning they've got to reign in corruption and start producing, or they've got to come up with some reason they "can't."

 In other words, in an Israel-less Gaza, the only options for the Palestinians are to create their state or to reconstruct their scapegoat. In this context, Shawqi Issa's words bear repeating: "The Palestinians must force Israel to re-occupy Gaza."

 Perhaps there is another possibility: Could it be that for the Palestinian national movement, the Israel – Palestinian conflict is existential in nature? Groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PLO and others were created to fight Israel, and for very little else. Could it be that these groups will try to preserve the conflict at all cost, because without the conflict there is no PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jihad?

 One might even take this line of reasoning further. While it is true that there are a group of people who now identify themselves as Palestinian, it is equally true that before 1964 no such group existed. Had Arab residents of Jaffa, Haifa or Jerusalem been asked in 1900, or even in 1950, about their nationality, they would likely have answered "Arab," not Palestinian.

 And indeed, it is difficult to distinguish 'Palestinianism' from a broader Arab identity. All the main defining characteristics of "nation" – language, cuisine, culture, religion - are indistinguishable from Arab culture. And even in examples where a unique, Palestinian culture has emerged – such as film maker Hany Abu-Assad or poet Mahmoud Darwish – their work focuses almost entirely on aspects of the conflict with Israel.

 Not that this negates Palestinian nationhood today. With somewhere between 2-7 million people around the world who define themselves in whole or in part as Palestinians, the nation exists, and must be treated as such. But it could be an explanation for the determination of Palestinian officialdom – in all groups and at all levels – to prevent a true end to Israeli involvement in Palestinian life.      



Edited by NetsNJFan - June 30 2006 at 10:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 10:11
Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.     BBC Report

 

 

 

The UN is ALWAYS warning about the latest humanitarian crisis in Gaza.  No money for food, but money for Qassam rockets and automatic rifles?  Please. 


I dont think money is the issue. It's more a case of food and medical supplies not getting through. Attacking civillian infrastructure is not going to achieve anything but a potential worsening of the problem.

Besides Nets, it's not the entire population of Gaza building rockets and dealing out death. Whether you like to admit it or not the extremists are a minority.

As for the rockets, I wouldn't be surprised if their conponant parts were donated from an outside source. Syria perhaps.


    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 09:39
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
    BBC Report
 
 
 
The UN is ALWAYS warning about the latest humanitarian crisis in Gaza.  No money for food, but money for Qassam rockets and automatic rifles?  Please. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 08:53
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:

Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?


As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies.
 
According to Wikipedia "Someone who attacks and/or kills a defenseless person is also considered a coward."  Blowing up people who are in public mourning over a loved one would apply.  I stand by my original assessment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 07:34
The best thing is, to give all of the Dream Theater, well, prog CDS, to each of them... Then all of them have to write reviews, peace upon earth..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 05:20
Originally posted by Forgotten Son Forgotten Son wrote:


Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?
As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies.


I would agree. Cowardice is nothing to do with these acts. It's a case of religous psychosis, blatant insanity or at best psychopathy, that drives these actions. These people are nothing in this life, but their mental illness leads them to believe they may be something in the next.
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 03:51
Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?


As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2006 at 03:26
Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
    BBC Report

Edited by Blacksword - June 30 2006 at 03:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 15:37
hahah.... that's what I've loved about the Israeli's... they don't pussyfoot around do they..


you just knew the  situation was going to get bad when terrorists are elected to political office.  I'll need to read up on what's going on though... he who has the guns makes the rules of course, but under what laws would they be charged, and are they subject to them. 


Edited by micky - June 29 2006 at 15:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 15:00
UPDATE: from Yediot Achronot
 
 
Hamas officials to stand trial

Israel plans to submit criminal charges against senior Hamas leaders arrested Wednesday night, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz rules; according to Central Command chief, detainees won't be used as bargaining chip

Aviram Zino

 Attorney General Menachem Mazuz ordered security forces to carry out criminal, rather than civilian arrests of Hamas senior officials, so that they can be tried according to the Terror-Prevention Act, sources in the Justice Ministry told Ynet Thursday. The detainees launched a hunger strike.

Vice Premier Shimon Peres said in an interview to CNN that Israel intended to submit indictments against the Hamas members under arrest.

Peres was asked in the interview why the Hamas top figures were arrested. He answered by saying that their arrest is not arbitrary, and added that they will stand trial and they will be able to defend themselves.

Meanwhile, Central Command Chief Yair Naveh said that Hamas members would not be used as bargaining chips, adding that they would be charged.


Some of Hamas members under arrest (Photo: AFP)

 

"The arrested senior figures are tied to financing and aiding terror attacks. Just this year Hamas killed six civilians in Judea and Samaria, kidnapped Nuriel Sasson a few months ago, and carried out shooting attacks in roads in the last few days," Naveh said.

 

Examining arrests

 

Shortly after the establishment of the Hamas government, sources at the Attorney General's Office began consultations on how to act against Hamas on the legal level.

 

In recent days a request was received by the political rank in Jerusalem and the Shin Bet to look into the possibility of arresting senior members of the Palestinian Legislative Council.

 

In general there are a number of accepted paths in such a case – the first is an administrative detention, usually carried out when there is a shortage of witnesses, or when there is a desire not to expose intelligence information. The second path is the criminal arrests, requiring a higher level of eye witnesses, beyond reasonable doubt.

 

It was this path that was chosen in accordance with the Terror Prevention Act. The Justice Ministry spokesman explained that all of the arrestees were Hamas officials, which is a terrorist organization, and their membership in a terror organization is a severe violation.

 

Sources in the ministry say the arrests could have taken place two months ago, but the decision to arrest them had to be taken by the political rank, and was therefore only carried out tonight, apparently following recent security developments.

--------------------------------------------------------
 


Edited by NetsNJFan - June 29 2006 at 15:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 14:50
I don't know, man.  How can any religion, no matter how radical, imagine a reward in heaven for such atrocities?  News items like this crush any hopes I have for peace in the middle east.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 14:28
Originally posted by Chicapah Chicapah wrote:

This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?
 
That is what they do.  Weddings are also frequent targets, in Israel and Iraq, and now even Jordan.
 
 
Nothing is worse though, than when they attack nursery schools though.  How can human beings do that?  All of the schools in Sderot, an Israeli town near Gaza, had to close a month early because of the Qassam rocket attacks from the strip. 


Edited by NetsNJFan - June 29 2006 at 14:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 14:15
This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17.  Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice?  Is there no shred of decency left?  A funeral is a terrorists target now?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 13:58
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Opinion on the Israeli incursions is very divided in Isarel too. The Israeli press are not convinced the actions will help secure the release of their young soldier.     BBc Report

 

That isn't exactly true.  Even the dovish, left-wing, get out of the territories Meretz party is supporting the incursion.  This is the most united Israel has been in a while, politically.


I guess the Israeli press have their own agenda, like any media. But, it is the job of the free press to question the actions of those democratically elected to lead. Even if they dont always reflect public opinion.
    
 
Of course Blacksword.  The Israeli press does ten to lean left, especially Haaretz and Yediot Achronot, but the Jerusalem Post is right, so it balances out.  And both sides criticize the government incessantly, usually with different takes on the same issue.  "Your being to tough...you're not being tough enough!"  etc.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 13:49
Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Opinion on the Israeli incursions is very divided in Isarel too. The Israeli press are not convinced the actions will help secure the release of their young soldier.     BBc Report

 

That isn't exactly true.  Even the dovish, left-wing, get out of the territories Meretz party is supporting the incursion.  This is the most united Israel has been in a while, politically.


I guess the Israeli press have their own agenda, like any media. But, it is the job of the free press to question the actions of those democratically elected to lead. Even if they dont always reflect public opinion.
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 13:21
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Opinion on the Israeli incursions is very divided in Isarel too. The Israeli press are not convinced the actions will help secure the release of their young soldier.

    BBc Report
 
That isn't exactly true.  Even the dovish, left-wing, get out of the territories Meretz party is supporting the incursion.  This is the most united Israel has been in a while, politically.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 13:04
Opinion on the Israeli incursions is very divided in Isarel too. The Israeli press are not convinced the actions will help secure the release of their young soldier.

    BBc Report

Edited by Blacksword - June 29 2006 at 13:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 11:35
Sean:  I think it is important to distinguish the situation of the hostages.  The Hamas ministers are in air conditioned Israeli prisons, with access to the outside world and are living under humanitarian conditions.  The Israeli corporal is in some rat infested Khan Yunis hellhole with a blindfold and rifle in his face, if he isn't dead yet.
 
Progtologist; Micky; Sean:  Good point, I should have said is the ME moving towards a flare up in the state of war that has existed since 1947.  Your right, technically Israel is "officially" at war with every member of the Arab league, except Jordan and Egypt.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2006 at 11:19
Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

The question is....When ISN'T the Middle East going to war?



the better question is... has there been a time that it HASN'T been... even before 1948.
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