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JJLehto 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
 Posted: July 05 2009 at 19:48 |
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So......all that red and big font was totally necessary.
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The T
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 19:41 |
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I added this band so I feel specially compromised when people say that metallica was added just because of sheer pressure put on by a group of members.... sounds like a big ugly mob just swept away with reason and logic and got Metallica into the weak and easy-to-manipulate heads of the Admin team and the site's owner....
By the way, just a useless personal point.... Metallica's been here for a loong time... I still haven't reviewed one SINGLE ALBUM.... and I have reviewed plenty of albums since they were added.... maybe, just maybe I (as well as the rest of the "add metallica" crew) HONESTLY THOUGH METALLICA BELONGED HERE as honestly as you Ivan believe they didn't? Maybe?? Maybe???
Edited by The T - July 05 2009 at 20:17 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 18:06 |
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Seems a paradox, but I'm sure that if added to Prog Metal, probably all this problems would have been avoided, because the Metal component is so strong in Metallica, that nobody would had questioned the decision of the team.
The rejection of Prog Metal caused this conflict of watching a 100% Metal band, rejected by all the three Prog Metal sub-genres added to PR.
But the Prog Metal team took a decision from the start and that's what they are here for.
Iván
BTW: I like your signature:
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. "   Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 05 2009 at 18:07 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 17:35 |
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Now THIS needs its very own reply...
Ah-ehm.... YES!!!
Can you be more specific - "Prog Influences" - what do you mean?
Both albums are so intensely influential that they don't need to have Prog influences - indeed, surely if you're influenced by a Prog Band, that pretty much denies the possibility of your band being Prog!
Hang on - you've forgotten about all the thrash that existed before 1985 - these albums did not come out of a vacuum!
Killing Is My Business was released TWO YEARS after Kill 'Em All, yet features some of the same riffs.
It is obviously more rock/metal based than "pure metal" based, and is more technically aligned than Kill 'Em All, which is a perfect blend of technicality (considering it was released so much earlier) and developing riffs more closely aligned with King Crimson than Judas Priest or Black Sabbath.
The Fates Warning album I'm not sure about - I heard a couple of tracks from it, and it's not very progressive.
Watchtower I've reviewed - it's not Prog, it's pure tech, which is something different.
Hang on - What are all these Prog elements?
Master of Puppets doesn't just have elements, it drips Prog - it out-Progs Prog - it is one of the Proggiest Prog Metal albums I have EVER heard.
There's stuff on "Master..." that you still hear being recycled by other bands - and Dream Theater are only one of the bands that were HIGHLY influenced by that one album.
Trying to think of a successful band that has been as strongly influenced by any of the other albums... Nope.
OK, the big mistake you're making is equating tech with Prog - it's not the same thing.
Celtic Frost I'd agree with - that's one quirky album, and I love it.
BUT
Despite the varied styles on that album, it's not as inherently Proggy as Master Of Puppets - or Ride The Lightning, come to that.
Man - you can't be serious!
Testament?
Anthrax? (You're making me laugh!)
Sorry, but the entire list here is made up of albums that are either technical, or only partially Prog (ie, Prog-Related, which is what Queensryche arguably are). Metallica's first 5 albums changed heavy metal forever - especially their 3rd and 4th albums (with a large consideration to the 5th, no matter how standard it is now).
Metallica were pure, aggressive leaders - but they were also humble followers - they knew the music they liked, and they played it.
More often than not, they played it better than the people who originally wrote it - but always gave full credit and support to those bands.
Yes, back in the day, Metallica were a seriously good (and PROGRESSIVE) band.
Edited by Certif1ed - July 05 2009 at 17:37 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 17:30 |
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Hey, feel free to use my posts as examples but I'm officially done with this thread.
Not that I'm angry but I've heard sufficient explanation's from the mods/collabs I still don't really agree...but I DO see why Metallica has been included, I really do see their points. Besides, debating is fun...but pretty pointless since they are on. So don't worry guys, no more trouble from me  Edited by JJLehto - July 05 2009 at 17:42 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 17:19 |
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Ahem...
True, but 5 utterly progressive (including 3 pure Prog Metal albums a Prog Metal band easily makes.
No, it isn't.
It's a good album, but Megadeth never got into the purely progressive way of writing that Metallica did on albums 2-4.
I'll re-listen, but Megadeth are a technical metal band, not a progressive metal band.
Tech is not the same as prog.
Coroner were never as progressive as Metallica - and I cannot think of any band as progressive or more important for prog metal than Metallica.
Can you provide good examples of how Coroner are important to Progressive Metal?
On the contrary, they were probably the first Prog Metal band. They are not simply Prog related, they are Prog. By every definition.
Really - I don't ever remember seeing them saying that - can you point me to an article where they said that? They always wanted to push the envelope (which they did), hence Cliff Burton was the bassist of choice, not Ron McGoverney.
They wanted someone who could think coherently about pushing musical boundaries, which is why Dave Mustaine was fired from the band. (Nothing against Dave or his phenomenal abilities, just bluntly stating what actually happened).
Actually, no - if you listen to the music, it is true!
Some tracks have passages of open E riffing, it's true, but not the whole album - that is a fallacy!
You could say the same about many Hawkwind albums, but you'll never see Hawkwind being disputed on this forum.
Sorry - I don't follow the logic.
How is that point proven?
Please explain, and use musical examples so that your logic may be followed more clearly.
Not at all, unless both bands can be proven to have been as significantly Progressive Metal as Metallica. Which I doubt - but would be very interested to read the arguments, as I like both bands.
And Ride The Lightning - and parts of Kill 'Em All too.
Isn't it wierd how commercial success hasn't affected Genesis, Yes, Tull or especially Pink Floyd's standing as Prog Rock groups?
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 16:25 |
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Who joins a Prog Rock site just to discuss Metallica and Metal?
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Transgressor
Forum Newbie 
Joined: July 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 16:12 |
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x debrewguy
Yes, I know that not so many people know the technical metal movement of the '80. Only who is keen on technical metal knows these things so it's obvious that for many people Metallica (a really really really famous band) are innovators also for techno-thrash metal because a lot of them knows only and justice for all...and maybe other who knows also Megadeth mentioned them together with the san francisco band. It's the same thing for people that thinks that Dream Theater invented prog metal. That it's not true. But a lot people knows only them. By now, I'm thinking about some presentations for other bands....maybe! I don't think that the add of "prog related" section to the site is a good think. But it's only my opinion... P.S. I can recommend some band to you, but it depends on your musical tastes... |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 15:59 |
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Claude, after so many posts, I only have to say something.
As long as I don't insult anybody (And I haven't done it), I will give my opinions and arguments.
I stand on everything I said.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 05 2009 at 16:00 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 15:11 |
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O.K., but my point is not the merits of other bands. Which you are free to use in proposing new additions to PA's database. Nor is it my intention to make a claim as to whether any or all of the "new" bands are deserving of inclusion. After Megadeth, Voivod, and Iron Maiden, my knowledge of some is limited to one album (Death Angel - Frolic through the Park. Annihilator - Alice in Chains. Celtic Frost - Into the Pandemonium). But i wouldn't feel qualified to debate their candidacies. The rest, I recognise the names, but that's it.
Voivod's in. That's a clear cut case. Iron Maiden - based on their influence and a good part of their music - is a good fit for prog related. Megadeth - I'll repeat myself - I think they belong here. But I don't think I can make a sufficient case for them, and I haven't seen one posted here yet. Emphasis on the "yet" part. And the rest - well, you've been invited to present your presentation for their inclusion. It seems to me that whatever you come up with is likely to be well thought and organized . Which makes it easier for PA to make a decision. Which would also end up building a good rep here. God only knows every community can always use people who can contribute in a positive and clear manner.  Sooooo .... here's to hoping we see some or all of your bands getting their day in the sun. I'll certainly be one that will follow up to see if there's some music I should check out.  |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Transgressor
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 14:43 |
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Ah-ehm...NO!!! There are only some prog influences in ...and justice for all (and we can count maybe master of puppets) In techincal metal Metallica were followers not leaders. (I consider Master and justice two metal masterpiece eh...so it's not about likes and dislikes) Here is a list in cronological order of the most important album of the eighties about prog and technical metal (I've focused on technical thrash listing to see that techno thrash was a movement that doesn't belong to or start with Metallica) 1985 "Killing is my business..."- Megadeth (thrash with tech elements and prog elements) "Energetic Disassembly" WatchTower (the first techincal metal album) "The Spectre within"- Fates Warning (Heavy/Power with prog elements) 1986 "Baptism under fire "- Juggernaut (prog-thrash) "Peace Sells..." Megadeth (thrash with tech elements and prog elements) "Awaken the Guardian"- Fates Warning (Heavy/Power with more and more prog elements) "Somewhere in time"- Iron Maiden (Heavy with some prog elements) "Rage for Order" Queensryche (Heavy that has influenced prog) (Master of puppets) 1987 "RIP"- Coroner (thrash with high tech elements) "Killing Technology"- Voivod (thrash with high tech elements) "Mekong Delta- Mekong Delta (prog-thrash) "Trouble within"- Juggernaut (prog-thrash) "Into THe Pandemonium" Celtic Frost (it was called Avantgarde Metal) 1988 "The Music of Erich Zann"- Mekong Delta (prog-thrash) "Operation:Mindcrime" Queensryche (Heavy, very important for prog) "Life's cycle"- Sieges Even (Technical metal) "So far, So good...So what!"- Megadeth (thrash with tech elements and prog elements) "...and justice for all"- Metallica (thrash with tech elements and prog elements) "Seventh son..."- Iron Maiden (Heavy with more prog elements) "No exit"- Fates Warning (Prog metal with heavy/power roots) "Endless war"- Realm (techno- thrash) "The sane asylum" - Blind illusion (techno- thrash) "Dimension Hatross" - Voivod (prog -and psichedelic-thrash) "Deception ignored" Deathrow (techno-thrash) "Master project genesis" Target (techno-thrash) "Punishment for decadence" Coroner (thrash metal with high technical skills) "Universe" DBC (techno-metal) 1989 "Control and resistance" - WAtchTower (the definitive technical metal album) "Perfect Simmetry"- Fates Warning (a true prog metal album) "Nothingface" Voivod (Psychedelic/prog metal) "When dream and day unite" Dream Theater (prog metal with heavy/power elements ) "The principle of doubt" Mekong Delta (prog metal with thrash as the base) "No more colour" Coroner (thrash with high technical skills) "Piece of time" Atheist (techno-death) "Gutter Ballet" Savatage (a Heavy release that has influenced prog) "Alice in Hell" Annihilator (thrash with very high technical points) 1990 "Dances of death..." Mekong Delta (the definitive prog thrrash album) "Steps" Sieges Even (technical and prog metal) "Rust in peace" Megadeth (I think we can consider it prog-thrash..) "Act III" Death Angel (thrash with prog elements) "A social grace" Psychotic Waltz (prog/techno metal) "Never Neverland" Annihilator (Techno-thrash) "Empire" Queensryche (Heavy that has influenced prog) I 've had to stopp here in 1990 ( I'm very tired...  )I have non considered '80 Rush album, and If we should insert Master of puppets... I have also to think about "The ultra violence" (1987)- "frolic through the park" (1988) by Death Angel; TEstament's "Practice what you preach" (1989), and maybe also Anthrax's "Persistence of time" (1990); "Twisted into form" (1990) by Forbidden ....... I don't know if the list of the metal band that during the '80 was important for prog and technical metal (or has done album with high technical skills as or more Metallica's) is complete... Edited by Transgressor - July 05 2009 at 15:05 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:28 |
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P.S. if someone checks out PA because Metallica is on here, I doubt
that it's going to be their first time reading or hearing about the
band. I, for one, don't buy albums from bands just because they're
listed at PA. And if someone did buy, say , Master of Puppets because
it's here, well ... what's wrong with that ? Would you have a problem
with their purchase of Abacab or Citizen ?
And for those worry warts who fear for our reputation, I suggest you give some time to seriously think about this "reputation". Then read the main page's "about PA" bit. Then consider whether any music site of any genre, anywhere on the web is in complete agreement on everything other sites declare about said genre or music. I mean, who are these people who don't "respect" us ? Is there a reason for us to care ? Would they really their opinion of us just because we did things your way ? |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:27 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom 5) I believe there is some merit to Megadeth, Toto, and Dire Straits' candidacies. I also believe that there hasn't been sufficient "proof" brought forward to justify their admission at this time, whether in a full blown prog genre or prog related or proto prog or whatever. And possibly ever. Again, the case hasn't been made yet. So please people, Metallica was admitted after much debate, and made it in based on a very considered presentation supporting their inclusion. M@x didn't bow to pressure, a secret society of collabs or admins did not conspire to slip them in based on their personal tastes. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:26 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom
part 4) Progkidjoe - Metallica has been judged by PA to be prog. They're in. end of discussion. I await your refusal to believe your own words work any better against you. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:25 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom
part 3) Ivan - a } you lose the respect you have gained here when you make statements like - "Metallica was added because of preasure of a group of members against the opinion of the vast majority, this poll proves it, that ended convincing the owner who was against the inclusion." And you know damn well (how many damn wells so far ? ) that others here still have to work with you, and are willing to overlook many things to get a job done right. So don't assume that others weren't offended just 'because they didn't tell you so. Your presence is usually helpful towards PA's goals. Your comments haven't always been. b} You know damn well that some very deserving acts have gotten in when higher ranking members have been able to present a strong enough case that was able to overcome any reservations other collabs / admin / reviewers or even M@x may have had. You've always been very clear in stating that some "experts'" opinion should hold more weight than other less "knowledgeable" members. So please, if you say you let lost battles be, then let them be. The picture others are painting of this recurring behaviour of yours is spot on. Words mean less than the actual example. c} And you also know damn well that it was felt that prog related was the best compromise available to bring an end to an interminable debate. Prog metal is where they belong, but we'd still be fighting over Metallica, eh. Oops, we still are ! d} And Ivan - you cannot claim to say you've shown no disrespect after your comment - "Metallica was added because of preasure of a group of members against the opinion of the vast majority, this poll proves it, that ended convincing the owner who was against the inclusion." You either have little respect for M@x or the people who came up with a strong enough case to change M@x's mind. And that is a right that everyone has - to change their mind if a sufficient case is made to do so. The legal process calls this an appeal. Which does on occasion bring about a change in a verdict, right ? e} You also know damn well (that'stoo many damn wells so far) that not every band that is in has gotten a majority vote in general polls, nor even in the final decision by admins. And you also know damn well that some additions were not always supported by a majority of collabs outside the genre team responsible, O.K. . They are given the authority to decide by themselves, but that doesn't mean they need ( and they don't) a majority from the rest of us. Just as our Symphonic team is given the job of deciding who gets in. But admin & M@x have the right to override us. And I have no problem with that. I may not agree with it. But that is their position in the hierarchy and they handle that responsibility quite well , thank you very damn well. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:24 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom
part 1) - JJletho& Transgressor - Genesis were initially offered a record contract as a way to highlight their songwriting, which some felt might be saleable. The Beatles were a straight up Pop / Rock N Roll band when they started. Rush were a heavy blues act. The Strawbs were folk, not prog folk, folk. Bluegrass even, at their very beginning (the strawberry hill boys). Early Jetho Tull were folk / blues influenced. Many an RPI band has an anthology of early releases where they were essentially "pop" bands. Moody Blues - Go Now, anyone ? Harmonium - a francophone America ? Voivod's first two releases made Metallica's Kill 'Em All sound like Dream Theater. Inclusion in any genre at PA is based on more than your origins. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:20 |
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DB's series of slightly coherent replies divided into smaller bite sized chunks of pseudo wisdom
part 2) if x is here why not Y ? Well now, if you believe so, you are free to make the arguement for their inclusion. In extreme cases, yes, M@x may intervene if the right case if made. That happens. If the only info given is "I think they're prog, so they are", then don't be surprised that your suggestion is refused. And while Megadeth has been turned down, if you're determined to get them in, go over the previous threads, see if you present a stronger case for their admittance. It happens, you know. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 13:08 |
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We should try to make it more obvious to visitors that their being here does not mean that the admins and collabs of PA think that they're a prog band. |
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Pekka
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2006 Location: Espoo, Finland Status: Offline Points: 6442 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 12:49 |
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Just as debrewguy well said what I was going to, by that logic Genesis is and always was a pop band, Rush are a bunch of kids trying their best to imitate Zeppelin and so on. By that same logic I'm a punk musician because the first song I wrote years ago was somewhat punky. Nevermind the fact that I've got some weird 7-13 minute songs under construction at the moment. They're punk metal because my first song was. I pretty much agree with Lars on the Thrash Metal definition and understand judging by their music why he would make that kind of a statement at that point of time.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007 Status: Offline Points: 4900 |
Posted: July 05 2009 at 12:45 |
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Why is this even an issue anymore? They are here, now. Drop it, folks.
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Metallica ?
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Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
