Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > General Music Discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Best guitarist - Technique and speed...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedBest guitarist - Technique and speed...
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 05:15
Originally posted by Nightfly Nightfly wrote:

Tony MacAlpine's worth a mention; great technique and speed but also plays with a lot of melody. He's just as good on Keyboards too!
 
I'm also a George Lynch fan. He hasn't got the speed of the Malmsteens of this word but a very tasty player nonetheless.
 
But I tip my hat to Eddie Van Halen, the godfather of shredders.
 
Macalpine is a fantastic player, loads of feeling, beastly technique, and a stunning keyboard player to boot. George, great legato attack, and more willing to be tasteful than Malmsteen. EVH, as a guitar player a hero of mine,  great feeling but the band itself, not so much a fan of anything past Van Halen II, too poppy and corny for my tastes, but EVH being in the band can elevate the status of the bands poppier moments a little bit anyway.
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2008 at 04:16
Originally posted by Hazlehurst Hazlehurst wrote:

Mohammed Suicmez of Necrophagist. So tight, so fast, so creative... just technically sound!
 
i'm a fan of Necrophagist as well, and Suicmez is certainly a good guitarist, although I wouldn't go so far to call him great. While certainly not lacking in emotion, his solos aren't the most emotive IMO, and not even the most creative either. But I can't argue his technically good, very tight and clean chops and great riffs to boot.
Back to Top
heyitsthatguy View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 17 2006
Location: Washington Hgts
Status: Offline
Points: 10094 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2008 at 15:18
Originally posted by cynthiasmallet cynthiasmallet wrote:

Herman li from Dragonforce



/thread


Back to Top
flickfan82x View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: January 31 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2008 at 15:12
George Benson........ no doubt about that.
Back to Top
Nightfly View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: August 01 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2008 at 14:00
Tony MacAlpine's worth a mention; great technique and speed but also plays with a lot of melody. He's just as good on Keyboards too!
 
I'm also a George Lynch fan. He hasn't got the speed of the Malmsteens of this word but a very tasty player nonetheless.
 
But I tip my hat to Eddie Van Halen, the godfather of shredders.
Back to Top
The Pessimist View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2008 at 11:14
Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Satriani and Paco D'Lucia come to mind. These three blow my mind, anybody agree with me on this?
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 16:46
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?

the faster you play the more sloppy you have to be. there is a limit to what can be done with speed. which is why speed does not impress me much musically. I can play piano at breathtaking speed, but what's the point of that? you can't play those semiquavers cleanly once you get beyond a certain speed. and you definitely can't put expression into them that way.
when I was younger I also thought that speed was everything and had a similar approach as those slashers. however, nowadays I look at it as a bit puerile. it is like "who can piss the highest?"


I'm really, really glad that I can enjoy so much more music. Fast -> bad. Heavy -> bad. Metal -> bad. Double Bass -> bad. Growling -> bad. Does anybody else see a pattern here?

And for the record: Yes, you can play fast *and* emotional/tasteful at the same time. The faster -> the more sloppy ... yes, perhaps as a rule of thumb it's true, but there are players who *can* play really fast and aren't sloppy at all. And this is indeed what distinguishes a true virtuoso from other players who are "just" very good. They control their instrument, and not the other way round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1qYCW7KqQ

CryClap
Clap

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 28 2008 at 16:52
Release Polls

Listened to:
Back to Top
Hazlehurst View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: December 09 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 14 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 16:40
Mohammed Suicmez of Necrophagist. So tight, so fast, so creative... just technically sound!
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 09:23
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?
 
Well as a guitarist myself, my tapping, alternate picking and legato skills are all more advanced than my sweeping technique (the only sweep picking pattern I can do cleanly are 3 string sweeps). Legato in fact came the most natural to me, and I've been able to hit up to 16 notes per second in legato. Sweeping is only just a fraction of what features in Vai's and it just happened to be one thing I noticed he was not consistent at executing cleanly everytime. And would I like Friedman or Becker for their sweep picking abilities alone? If that were the case I would like Fancesco Fareri, but I honestly never made it past the 1 min mark of any of his songs, because it sounded so cold and emotionless and his vibrato just made me cringe and press stop. Why do i actually like Becker, Friedman, Vai, Satch, Shawn Lane, et al? Because those guys had the complete package : Fantastic/Innovative compositions, astounding technical skill, the ability to bring out so many different emotions in their playing and compostion, and of course great ability to improvise.
 
As for the Malmsteen/Vai comparision, i think Malmsteen's vibrato is more consistent, i.e never out of tune. But on the other hand, Vai can vary his vibrato between shallow and wide a lot more. Malmsteen's sweeps are as clean as freshly polished metal, his alternate picking faultless. I can imagine though, through Malmsteen into the pit with Vai in a game of legato and two handed tapping, I bet once Malmsteen goes beyond simple 3 finger tapping (think Eruption) and some more of all over the place legato, and I almost totally guarantee Vai will be the man.
As for who is a better musician overall? Well I have seen both live (Malmsteen on the 16th of November 2006, the day before my 18 birthdayTongue) and G3 on their first Aussie tour (Vai, Satch and Petrucci). Both were superb nights. But G3 won hands down.
I can listen to Petrucci, Vai, Satch, Lane, Friedman, Becker and Buckethead (and many more that don't instantly come to mind) on a daily basis. Malmsteen might get a listen 10 times a month if his lucky.
Back to Top
BaldJean View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 09:16
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?

the faster you play the more sloppy you have to be. there is a limit to what can be done with speed. which is why speed does not impress me much musically. I can play piano at breathtaking speed, but what's the point of that? you can't play those semiquavers cleanly once you get beyond a certain speed. and you definitely can't put expression into them that way.
when I was younger I also thought that speed was everything and had a similar approach as those slashers. however, nowadays I look at it as a bit puerile. it is like "who can piss the highest?"


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 08:07
^ It's all about sweep picking for you, isn't it? It's not really that important to me ... I rather tend to look at the complete picture. BTW: If Vai's playing is sloppy, how would you describe Malmsteen's playing?
Release Polls

Listened to:
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2008 at 07:29
Originally posted by 1vic 1vic wrote:

I only keep the first Yngwie's album. I guess, I have better taste... just kidding. Smile
HughesJB4 said: (except his sweep picking remains as sloppy as ever).
I am not trying to be annoying I just want to  make sure if I am loosing it or you are missing something because I didn't find anything that could be considered sloppy in Vai's  technique. Could you be so kind and point me to the right piece where his sloppiness sticks out the most I would really appreciate it. I think I have all his albums except Zappa's period.
Thank you HughesJ4B
 
I assume you own all the G3 DVDs. Put on Live in Tokyo, and go to 1:09:52, (i was using Cyberlink PowerDVD on the 0.5x speed setting), where Vai does 3 sweep picking patterns in his 4 bar solo spot. A friend of mine while watching it for the first time cringed at how sloppy Vai's sweeps were. My father also remarked how the sweeps were not fitting in the musical context. I agree with both these points. I watch this DVD about 10-15 times a month, so it's all pretty well ingrained into my memory. And this is just one example of his sloppy sweeps, keep listening to other works of his and you will find more for sure.
On the first two DVDs ,  Vai and Satch had the best guitar performances in the jam IMHO, while the 3rd guitarist in Live in Concert and Live in Denver (Eric Johnson and Malmsteen respectively) always came off second best to Vai and Satch.
For live in Tokyo, I found myself having to hand it over to Petrucci/Satch this time round. Vai just didn't seem his best that night, unfortunate given how amazing he was on the Live in Denver jams.
 
 
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Maybe it's just a misunderstanding ... to me saying that someone's playing is sloppy "as ever" or to be stuck in the 80s constitutes bashing and simply doesn't makes sense to me when applied to Vai. Even in the 80s his playing was exceptional and hardly comparable to typical guitarists of the time. For example listen to Eat Em And Smile and compare it to 1984. Or listen to the Alcatraz album he played on and compare it to their albums with Yngwie, or even the Whitesnake album where he merely acted as a studio guitarist, playing parts which were already written for Vandenberg ... to everything he adds his own, unique style. If Vai sounds too much like 80s shred then only because he *defined* most of it, together with Satch of course.Big%20smile 
 
I have always found his sweeping abilities to often be the major sticking point with what is an other very technically adept guitarist. Another thing I have noticed is that Vai's fingering for legato patterns seem to always look slightly sloppy, compared to say, Satch, Shawn Lane or Holdsworth or , but Vai manages to pull it off almost as cleanly as these guys, so aesthetically i can complain about Vai's legato, it has almost always been pulled off great.
Vai's techique while some of it has remained somewhat 80s, his use of the Fretless and Sustainer are certainly not, not to mention the song Building The Church displays a new tapping technique we had not heard from him prior to that, so certainly that was a technique improvement (although it's higly probably someone stumbled across that style of tapping in the late 80s or sometime in the 90s, but that is just a guess really, and anyone with any evidence to back that up or dispute that, feel free to comment).
I have always felt that if their were two sweep pickers of the 80s who knew not only how to do it cleanly, but with a lot of emotional content, it was the mighty pair of Marty Friedman and Jason Becker.
 
Back to Top
darkshade View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2008 at 17:54
whats everyone's opinion on Omar from The Mars Volta? he's obviously not the best guitarists but definitly makes good riffs and writes really well thought out music
My Last.fm
Back to Top
cynthiasmallet View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 01 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 545 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2008 at 15:47
Herman li from Dragonforce
Would you like to watch TV, or get between the sheets, or contemplate the silent freeway, would you like something to eat?
Back to Top
darkshade View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2008 at 15:14
i cant stand guitarists that are all technique and speed and have no emotion, so a lot of the guys i mention have a nice mix of both.

Jeff Beck
Frank Zappa
Steve Morse
Robert Fripp
the guy from Brand X
John McLaughlin
Jimi Hendrix
Kirk Hammett
Allan Holdsworth
Trey Anastasio
Mike Stern
Larry Coryell
Pat Metheny
John Abercrombie
Scott Henderson

one man i want to focus on is John Scofield. He may be the most soulful guitarist out there right now, but he can rip it down with the best of them (listen to any of the albums he's on with Miles Davis, Billy Cobham, George Duke, and John Abercrombie) his style is so lyrical, it's almost as if his guitar is an extension of himself.



Edited by darkshade - January 27 2008 at 15:16
My Last.fm
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2008 at 10:14
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I am not much impressed by Tipton, to be perfectly honest. I am an avid follower of the shred guitar scene as well, which also means that I'm familiar with this sort of "Vai bashing". What I don't understand is how little you know about Vai's bandwidth of techniques if you really own all these albums/DVDs. First of all: Vai's playing has always been exceptional, even in the 80s. Just compare his playing on for example Passion and Warfare to what Satriani was playing at the time. Secondly, if you look at Vai in the 90s or 2000s you'll discover that he expanded his playing to totally different techniques again ... just two words: fretless, sustainer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbAi7fa2yZo).

There may be guitarist who play faster than Vai, but Vai is - at least for me -  the ultimate combination of emotional playing, masterly technique, flawless execution and innovative composition/songwriting.


BTW: I actually agree with your theory that guitar techniques evolve ... a guitarist who begins his career in the 80s has more "building blocks" to use than one of the 1970s, in addition to the techniques which he creates all by himself (which there are very few of). What I don't agree with is that guitarists are stuck in their decade ... some are (Malmsteen most of all), some are not.
 
Steve Vai has definitely improved his technique over the years, not a doubt about it (except his sweep picking remains as sloppy as ever). His playing on the triple neck guitar on I Know You're Here on G3: Live in Denver was absolutely mind blowing, and his use of the bottom neck with the Fernandes Sustainer and Fretless Board was very cool. Certainly Steve Vai, although the bulk of his technique remains in the 80s IMO, his approach to composition and just his general approach to the guitar is certainly still keeping up with the present. As for "Vai bashing", well when I put my post up, to my mind i was just giving my analysis on his playing, and my intention hardly to "Vai Bash". Given Vai is quite simply a god to me and has for the past 3 years had a big impact on the way I think about music and guitar playing. For the Love and Windows To the Soul bring me to tears without fail everytime (and that's just two examples, let alone all the other beautiful work he has done over the years) . I can't say that about many of today's shredders songs.


Maybe it's just a misunderstanding ... to me saying that someone's playing is sloppy "as ever" or to be stuck in the 80s constitutes bashing and simply doesn't makes sense to me when applied to Vai. Even in the 80s his playing was exceptional and hardly comparable to typical guitarists of the time. For example listen to Eat Em And Smile and compare it to 1984. Or listen to the Alcatraz album he played on and compare it to their albums with Yngwie, or even the Whitesnake album where he merely acted as a studio guitarist, playing parts which were already written for Vandenberg ... to everything he adds his own, unique style. If Vai sounds too much like 80s shred then only because he *defined* most of it, together with Satch of course.Big%20smile

Listen to Freak Show Excess here: http://www.myspace.com/stevevai ... it both explains why Vai is listed on this website, and just how much his style and sound evolved over the years.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - January 27 2008 at 10:16
Release Polls

Listened to:
Back to Top
1vic View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: October 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2008 at 09:50
I only keep the first Yngwie's album. I guess, I have better taste... just kidding. Smile
HughesJB4 said: (except his sweep picking remains as sloppy as ever).
I am not trying to be annoying I just want to  make sure if I am loosing it or you are missing something because I didn't find anything that could be considered sloppy in Vai's  technique. Could you be so kind and point me to the right piece where his sloppiness sticks out the most I would really appreciate it. I think I have all his albums except Zappa's period.
Thank you HughesJ4B
Can help with composition, orchestration, harmony, polyphony, musical forms at http://composition4pros.com
Back to Top
Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2008 at 00:58
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I am not much impressed by Tipton, to be perfectly honest. I am an avid follower of the shred guitar scene as well, which also means that I'm familiar with this sort of "Vai bashing". What I don't understand is how little you know about Vai's bandwidth of techniques if you really own all these albums/DVDs. First of all: Vai's playing has always been exceptional, even in the 80s. Just compare his playing on for example Passion and Warfare to what Satriani was playing at the time. Secondly, if you look at Vai in the 90s or 2000s you'll discover that he expanded his playing to totally different techniques again ... just two words: fretless, sustainer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbAi7fa2yZo).

There may be guitarist who play faster than Vai, but Vai is - at least for me -  the ultimate combination of emotional playing, masterly technique, flawless execution and innovative composition/songwriting.


BTW: I actually agree with your theory that guitar techniques evolve ... a guitarist who begins his career in the 80s has more "building blocks" to use than one of the 1970s, in addition to the techniques which he creates all by himself (which there are very few of). What I don't agree with is that guitarists are stuck in their decade ... some are (Malmsteen most of all), some are not.
 
Steve Vai has definitely improved his technique over the years, not a doubt about it (except his sweep picking remains as sloppy as ever). His playing on the triple neck guitar on I Know You're Here on G3: Live in Denver was absolutely mind blowing, and his use of the bottom neck with the Fernandes Sustainer and Fretless Board was very cool. Certainly Steve Vai, although the bulk of his technique remains in the 80s IMO, his approach to composition and just his general approach to the guitar is certainly still keeping up with the present. As for "Vai bashing", well when I put my post up, to my mind i was just giving my analysis on his playing, and my intention hardly to "Vai Bash". Given Vai is quite simply a god to me and has for the past 3 years had a big impact on the way I think about music and guitar playing. For the Love and Windows To the Soul bring me to tears without fail everytime (and that's just two examples, let alone all the other beautiful work he has done over the years) . I can't say that about many of today's shredders songs.
Another guitar to my mind that has 'the ultimate combination of emotional playing, masterly technique, flawless execution and innovative composition/songwriting' is Joe Satriani, who has had an even bigger influence on my playing style and technique, although i would agree with you in another thread you posted many times on regarding Vai vs Satch, that Vai has the compositional edge and has always been more innovative in his approach, but that's not to say Satch has not been massively influential compositionally wise. Satch's technique over the years has always improved, his use of the Digitech Whammy (which if i recall that pedal was released in 1991) over the years always amazing to me.
As for guitarist stuck in their decade, I think you took my comment as me over-generalising, when i really did mean some guitarist are stuck in their decade, and others are not. Certainly Marty Friedman's compositions have always been fresh, as has some of Vai's and Satch's. As for Malmsteen, there is a reason why I only have 3 of his studio albums, the first two, and Odyssey, which to be honest, was about a 4/10 for me anyway, and the Concerto Suite LIVE DVD.
 
Back to Top
1vic View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: October 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2008 at 09:56
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

 
As I've said, he is certainly great at many techniques, but if your an avid follower of the shred guitar scene like I am (I have no idea if you are you or not, Vai is really a master of composition, but not so much of guitar technique. I am a huge Vai fan, having about 3/4 of his solo albums, Live in Astoria and Visual Sound theories, not to mention all three G3 DVDs. His technique is still very much "80s virtuoso" level, as what happens to many guitarists that are in their technical prime in certain period, resulting in each sucessive generation of guitarists being more technical. Just to make more sense on that point i'll give examples: Jimmy Page/Tony Iommi were very much aof the late 60s guitarists and their technique is firmly rooted in that period, Dave Murray from Iron Maiden developed most of his technique in the 70s and his technique is rooted in that era, Marty Friedman/Joe Satriani/Vai/Malmsteen were very much a part of the 80s shred scene and there technique is rooted in that era, Rusty Cooley/Jasun Tipton/Jeff Loomis were part of the 90s and even today's shred scene and have highly evolved technique.
While Vai is something special, many virtuosos of the 90s/00s can sweep pick, tap, alternate pick, string skip, legato more cleanly and quicker than Vai, some people significantly so. Cooley is faster and cleaner in all those areas then Vai, so i would consider him a master of all those techniques. And few people can match, if any at all, can match Tipton's abilities in mixing sweep picking and alternate picking in one pattern. Master in the 80s? I guess so,l but not so much nowadays. Being a Progmetal Specialist, im assuming you have heard Zero Hour and Tiptons insane techniqueWink
Thanks for replying Hughes, now I see what you meant. To me Vai is a musician who can play the guitar really well. Yet, I never used his music/licks for exercises.
I do not find Tipton's technique something out of this world, sorry.
Can help with composition, orchestration, harmony, polyphony, musical forms at http://composition4pros.com
Back to Top
1vic View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: October 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2008 at 08:16
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by 1vic 1vic wrote:

That thread is irrelevant.It's not like all the guitar players perform the same piece of music e.g Bumble Bee and such using a metronome so you can tell who is the fastest one. And I want to see it because speeding up the recording is a common practice since the end of 40s.Cool

You see, you're supposed to use your brain and judge for yourself by comparing the musicians and what they play.

Thank you King Crimson,
My point exactly.
Can help with composition, orchestration, harmony, polyphony, musical forms at http://composition4pros.com
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.309 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.