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suitkees View Drop Down
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Points: 9050 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2023 at 04:22
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ We were talking about setting a "minimum number of ratings", which is manipulating settings to get different results. The question of what is "better" depends on norms and/or objectives, not on algorithms. 

The algorithms set the minimum number of ratings on 10, is that less manipulating? Big smile


Of course not, the manipulation has just been automated... Algorithms are mainly that: automated manipulations of data. That's why there's so much fuzz about them; they're not created without specific (ideological, commercial, informational, ...) objectives.

(That said, I think the minimum ratings is set at 0 from the start, but you have to set it at least to 1 otherwise the number of results will be limited - now, that seems to be a bug in the algorithm)


Edited by suitkees - May 07 2023 at 04:25

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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

The PA charts has some f**ked up algorhitms that comes up with this kind of logic, so yeah there's something wrong. 
Yes, indeed, I've seen that many times.....How many more times?

f**ked up algorhitms 
Klaatu mannerisms 
barada nikto
Cluster  f**ck communism's window
Subrosa unrehearsed multipolar prism. 
Magic mushroom alcoholic logic innuendo .
Ping-pong, King Kong...Fay Ray swo0ns
....so yeah there's something wrong. 



SNAFU ALGORYTHM virtue signal
 the mild mannerisms of Kung-fu...
Magic logic hopping mad kangaroo
On the bony shoulders of a young horse
Sucked down the brain drain
another sick thing
Of course, it's the same thing
We're all insane gang. 
Don't jump to your foreskin conclusion 
now that you've lost a skin or two.
 

Mosh might say:
"Dang ... Cindy ... you been smoking some dandies over there! Wink"  LOL
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 15107 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2023 at 16:02
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ We were talking about setting a "minimum number of ratings", which is manipulating settings to get different results. The question of what is "better" depends on norms and/or objectives, not on algorithms. 

The algorithms set the minimum number of ratings on 10, is that less manipulating? Big smile
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ I find it as awkward as you, but you can not blame an algorithm: it indeed just does what it was supposed to do. It is those who conceived it who are to blame if it doesn't give the results you (we) would like to see.
Write to God (aka M@X) if you want to see things change...
Fair enough I wouldn't blame the calculator, a sewing machine or a robot either, but the creators. I blame the creators of this algorithm.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - May 06 2023 at 15:36
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suitkees View Drop Down
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^ I find it as awkward as you, but you can not blame an algorithm: it indeed just does what it was supposed to do. It is those who conceived it who are to blame if it doesn't give the results you (we) would like to see.
Write to God (aka M@X) if you want to see things change...

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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^We have a system which places the 229th fastest runner at the 11th place, but that doesn't mean it is not functioning: it does what it was supposed to do, whether we like it or not
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suitkees View Drop Down
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Points: 9050 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2023 at 14:04
^ We were talking about setting a "minimum number of ratings", which is manipulating settings to get different results. The question of what is "better" depends on norms and/or objectives, not on algorithms. 

Now, that the PA algorithm is very questionable seems to be an understatement, but that doesn't mean it is not functioning: it does what it was supposed to do, whether we like it or not.



Edited by suitkees - May 06 2023 at 14:08

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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Nothing manipulating in setting the minimum number of ratings to a certain number...


Ermm

Is it better to compare the average ratings of an album rated by say 1500 people with one rated by 5 people?
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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omphaloskepsis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

The PA charts has some f**ked up algorhitms that comes up with this kind of logic, so yeah there's something wrong. 

Yes, indeed, I've seen that many times.....How many more times?

f**ked up algorhitms 
Klaatu mannerisms 
barada nikto
Cluster  f**ck communism's window
Subrosa unrehearsed multipolar prism. 
Magic mushroom alcoholic logic innuendo .
Ping-pong, King Kong...Fay Ray swo0ns
....so yeah there's something wrong. 









 

SNAFU ALGORYTHM virtue signal
 the mild mannerisms of Kung-fu...
Magic logic hopping mad kangaroo
On the bony shoulders of a young horse
Sucked down the brain drain
another sick thing
Of course, it's the same thing
We're all insane gang. 
Don't jump to your foreskin conclusion 
now that you've lost a skin or two.


 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - May 06 2023 at 14:45
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

The PA charts has some f**ked up algorhitms that comes up with this kind of logic, so yeah there's something wrong. 

Yes, indeed, I've seen that many times.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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suitkees View Drop Down
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Points: 9050 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2023 at 13:37
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Nothing manipulating in setting the minimum number of ratings to a certain number...


Ermm

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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

...or: The Art of Manipulating Statistics, so that they correspond better to desired results than to reality.
You should go into politics...
There's clearly something wrong with the statistics when one of the best-known prog albums of 1970 doesn't even feature in PA's Top 250 Albums list. Confused

Anyway, at least I now know how to manipulate the statistics to my liking. Wink

Nothing manipulating in setting the minimum number of ratings to a certain number, the question is only which number is appropriate/fair.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

^ I think, minimum 100 ratings would be appropriate.
That sounds fine in theory, but in practice it only gives me a Top 65 albums list - not a full Top 100, although it does have the consolation of YES - Time and a Word at #61. Smile

The lower you set the minimum number of ratings, the lower will Time and a Word be ranked, but your choice. Big smile
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Cristi View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

...or: The Art of Manipulating Statistics, so that they correspond better to desired results than to reality.
You should go into politics...
There's clearly something wrong with the statistics when one of the best-known prog albums of 1970 doesn't even feature in PA's Top 250 Albums list. Confused

Anyway, at least I now know how to manipulate the statistics to my liking. Wink
The PA charts has some f**ked up algorhitms that comes up with this kind of logic, so yeah there's something wrong. 1968:

.
.
.


those charts improve when you choose a number of ratings, less abnormalities as the one above. 
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

...or: The Art of Manipulating Statistics, so that they correspond better to desired results than to reality.
You should go into politics...
There's clearly something wrong with the statistics when one of the best-known prog albums of 1970 doesn't even feature in PA's Top 250 Albums list. Confused

Anyway, at least I now know how to manipulate the statistics to my liking. Wink
The PA charts has some f**ked up algorhitms that comes up with this kind of logic, so yeah there's something wrong. 1968:

.
.
.
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Points: 40038 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2023 at 10:23
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

...or: The Art of Manipulating Statistics, so that they correspond better to desired results than to reality.
You should go into politics...
There's clearly something wrong with the statistics when one of the best-known prog albums of 1970 doesn't even feature in PA's Top 250 Albums list. Confused

Anyway, at least I now know how to manipulate the statistics to my liking. Wink
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suitkees View Drop Down
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...or: The Art of Manipulating Statistics, so that they correspond better to desired results than to reality.
You should go into politics...

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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


^ I think, minimum 100 ratings would be appropriate.
That sounds fine in theory, but in practice it only gives me a Top 65 albums list - not a full Top 100, although it does have the consolation of YES - Time and a Word at #61. Smile
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David_D View Drop Down
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^ I think, minimum 100 ratings would be appropriate.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I definitely need to redo the Top 100 Albums list for 1970 (to include YES - Time and a Word), now that Cristi and others have helpfully shown me how to use the minimum number of ratings filter to change the results. Thumbs Up

That seems very fair to me.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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