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Topic ClosedBritish Proto-Prog
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Poll Question: Which of these do you prefer? (Beatles omitted)
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [8.70%]
6 [26.09%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [4.35%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [4.35%]
1 [4.35%]
1 [4.35%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
3 [13.04%]
0 [0.00%]
8 [34.78%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 07:12
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Dean, I quote you: "Our "Proto Prog" section is not a musical/musicological subgenre, it is a just a historic classification that acts as a safety net to catch those early bands that didn't "progress" onto becoming fully-fledged Progressive Rock bands."
This unfortunately still did not clarify my thick brain what proto prog means Ouch
Not turned into fully fledged prog rock bands, thus were the beach boys proto prog? (before you say no look and listen to this it's fab really Big smile The Beach Boys SMiLE Sessions - Heroes and Villains Music Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptxwWt2JeGQ ? xxxxx
LOL I'm not going to get drawn into another endless, fruitless and pointless debate on The Beach Boys. They were an influential band that is not to be denied and the (staged) rivalry between Wilson and The Beatles cannot be ignored. But I cannot regard them as being specifically influential on the formation of Progressive Rock as a genre. Also, as you have since spotted, by being American they are not subject to this particular poll.

If you cannot see why some bands are called Proto on the PA and others are not then stop worrying about it. Rejoice in the ones we have listed and listen to their music for what it is - great music - if we went by a purely musicological (Record Fair) definition many of those bands wouldn't be on the site at all.



btw: I am not going to ask you to play "favourites" - there are two distinct definitions for two distinctly different purposes  - both are valid but only one applies here.
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 07:10
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am a nincompoop yes this I know and to date I still don't not know what proto prog means? Ouch
Inventing of Proto-prog the term for distinctive sound, historicaly, as I already said: 
 
Quote


Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:
(...)
(proto-prog=Hammond organ driven heavy rock that was played on late 60s / early 70s, mainly British, but can be detected in USA and other countries too)
 
(...)
 
Proto-prog the term will appear in the mid 70s by the records dealers to firm at their lists that one of Rock (not pop-rock) styles of late 60s / early 70s. As I already said, it was Hammond organ driven, pretty heavy and "greasy" sound (with a mellotron too, but not synths - as a general rule), very often with a touch of Psychedelia, Jazz and Classical music.
 
 
The PA's definition of proto-prog writen by Ivan Melgar - Morey:
 
Quote The denomination Proto Prog comes from the combination of two words, Proto from the Greek The earliest,. and Prog which as we know is a short term for Progressive Rock, so as it's name clearly indicates, refers to the earliest form of Progressive Rock or Progressive Rock in embryonary state.

These bands normally were formed and released albums before Progressive Rock had completely developed (there are some rare Proto Prog bands from the early 70's, because the genre didn't expanded to all the Continents simultaneously

The common elements in all these bands is that they developed one or more elements of Prog, and even when not completely defined as part of the genre, they are without any doubt, an important stage in the evolution of Progressive Rock.

Generally, Proto Prog bands are the direct link between Psyche and Prog and for that reason the Psychedelic components are present in the vast majority of them, but being that Progressive Rock was born from the blending of different genres, we have broadened the definition to cover any band that combined some elements of Progressive Rock with other genres prior to 1970.

Some of these bands evolved and turned into 100% Prog, while others simply choose another path, but their importance and contribution in the formative period of Prog can't be denied, for that reason no Prog site can ignore them.
 
Kati, it is up to you now what you prefer to accept as your definition Hug
Sventonio, I continue to be confused however atleast you came to a closer definition in terms what it means, even if some disagree xxxx Hug
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 07:06
I missed the fact that the beach boys are not British hihihihi LOL hugs Hug
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 06:58
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am a nincompoop yes this I know and to date I still don't not know what proto prog means? Ouch
In our context (and I must stress that), it is any band that produced music that lead to the creation of Progressive Rock as a distinct genre of music in the years prior to 1969. That date is an arbitrary "stick-in-the-ground" to give us a notional reference point (it is not cast in stone). 

You could say, for example, that the early Psychedelic albums by Pink Floyd are Proto-Prog, (especially Saucerful of Secrets), even though they later went on to produce Progressive Rock albums and we would not classify them as a Proto Prog band.

Our "Proto Prog" section is not a musical/musicological subgenre, it is a just a historic classification that acts as a safety net to catch those early bands that didn't "progress" onto becoming fully-fledged Progressive Rock bands.

The problem with going just by a particular sound (such as Hammond-rich keyboards) is that it ignores a lot of artists who did not employ such a sound, and as you point out with the example of "July Morning", miss-classifies Prog Bands that created hammond-heavy music after Prog was established as a genre (Take A Look At Yourself is a 1971 album - it is hard to classify an album that was released in 1971 as Proto Prog).
Dean, I quote you: "Our "Proto Prog" section is not a musical/musicological subgenre, it is a just a historic classification that acts as a safety net to catch those early bands that didn't "progress" onto becoming fully-fledged Progressive Rock bands."
This unfortunately still did not clarify my thick brain what proto prog means Ouch
Not turned into fully fledged prog rock bands, thus were the beach boys proto prog? (before you say no look and listen to this it's fab really Big smile The Beach Boys SMiLE Sessions - Heroes and Villains Music Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptxwWt2JeGQ ? xxxxx
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 06:44
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am a nincompoop yes this I know and to date I still don't not know what proto prog means? Ouch
Inventing of Proto-prog the term for distinctive sound, historicaly, as I already said: 
 
Quote


Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:
(...)
(proto-prog=Hammond organ driven heavy rock that was played on late 60s / early 70s, mainly British, but can be detected in USA and other countries too)
 
(...)
 
Proto-prog the term will appear in the mid 70s by the records dealers to firm at their lists that one of Rock (not pop-rock) styles of late 60s / early 70s. As I already said, it was Hammond organ driven, pretty heavy and "greasy" sound (with a mellotron too, but not synths - as a general rule), very often with a touch of Psychedelia, Jazz and Classical music.
 
 
The PA's definition of proto-prog writen by Ivan Melgar - Morey:
 
Quote The denomination Proto Prog comes from the combination of two words, Proto from the Greek The earliest,. and Prog which as we know is a short term for Progressive Rock, so as it's name clearly indicates, refers to the earliest form of Progressive Rock or Progressive Rock in embryonary state.

These bands normally were formed and released albums before Progressive Rock had completely developed (there are some rare Proto Prog bands from the early 70's, because the genre didn't expanded to all the Continents simultaneously

The common elements in all these bands is that they developed one or more elements of Prog, and even when not completely defined as part of the genre, they are without any doubt, an important stage in the evolution of Progressive Rock.

Generally, Proto Prog bands are the direct link between Psyche and Prog and for that reason the Psychedelic components are present in the vast majority of them, but being that Progressive Rock was born from the blending of different genres, we have broadened the definition to cover any band that combined some elements of Progressive Rock with other genres prior to 1970.

Some of these bands evolved and turned into 100% Prog, while others simply choose another path, but their importance and contribution in the formative period of Prog can't be denied, for that reason no Prog site can ignore them.
 
Kati, it is up to you now what you prefer to accept as your definition Hug


Edited by Svetonio - March 25 2015 at 07:07
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 06:43
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am a nincompoop yes this I know and to date I still don't not know what proto prog means? Ouch
In our context (and I must stress that), it is any band that produced music that lead to the creation of Progressive Rock as a distinct genre of music in the years prior to 1969. That date is an arbitrary "stick-in-the-ground" to give us a notional reference point (it is not cast in stone). 

You could say, for example, that the early Psychedelic albums by Pink Floyd are Proto-Prog, (especially Saucerful of Secrets), even though they later went on to produce Progressive Rock albums and we would not classify them as a Proto Prog band.

Our "Proto Prog" section is not a musical/musicological subgenre, it is a just a historic classification that acts as a safety net to catch those early bands that didn't "progress" onto becoming fully-fledged Progressive Rock bands.

The problem with going just by a particular sound (such as Hammond-rich keyboards) is that it ignores a lot of artists who did not employ such a sound, and as you point out with the example of "July Morning", miss-classifies Prog Bands that created hammond-heavy music after Prog was established as a genre (Take A Look At Yourself is a 1971 album - it is hard to classify an album that was released in 1971 as Proto Prog).


Edited by Dean - March 25 2015 at 06:43
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 06:29
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

(proto-prog=Hammond organ driven heavy rock that was played on late 60s / early 70s, mainly British, but can be detected in USA and other countries too)
 
That is the most daft and incorrect definition for proto-prog I have ever heard. I think we went through this before on this forum and decided you didn't know what you were talking about. It doesn't get any better the second time around.
Hammond organ driven, is July Morning original here with Ken Hensley proto prog? I bet I sound like an idiot I know. I am the worst ninny sorry Stern Smile but am very curious tho' xxx
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 06:21
I am a nincompoop yes this I know and to date I still don't not know what proto prog means? Ouch
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 06:13
Ermm This is a Poll about who you prefer, not about who was/is best or first. 

I prefer Kaleidoscope ... they have been one of my favourite bands since 1972 when I accidentally bought "A Tangerine Dream" after hearing a German band with that name on the radio. Back then their albums had been long deleted and were incredibly hard to find, by 1974 copies of "A Tangerine Dream" and "Faintly Blowing" could be found at Record Fairs for £200 a piece (that's like £2000 in today's money). It's only since their entire catalogue has been reissued on CD that I have completed my collection.


We have established that Proto-Prog actually has two very distinct and different definitions. One is a very limited stylistic definition used by re-sellers of used vinyl at Record Fairs and the other is the more meaningful (in our context) wider classification that we use here. Confusing the two terms is wrong-thinking and using the "Record Fair" term here is misleading and disingenuous.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 01:52
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

(proto-prog=Hammond organ driven heavy rock that was played on late 60s / early 70s, mainly British, but can be detected in USA and other countries too)
 
That is the most daft and incorrect definition for proto-prog I have ever heard. I think we went through this before on this forum and decided you didn't know what you were talking about. It doesn't get any better the second time around.
In fact e.g. The Who never were "proto-prog" in the second half of 60s. The Who were prog related due to the famous Rock opera from 1969 and due to their long and complex Rock songs with a lot of synths at their 70s albums, but they never had a touch of proto-prog sound as the bands as e.g. Deep Purple as well. In the second half of 60s, The Who were recorded some great Freakbeat songs but Freakbeat is not proto-prog; for example, Mr Townshend's "mini-opera" A Quick One While He's Away , I Can See For Miles  the song or Armenia City In The Sky  the song writen by John "Speedy" Keen ( from Who Sell Out  LP ) and indeed that's all Freakbeat, not "proto-prog".
Also The Pretty Things in late 60s were representatives of Freakbeat, not "proto-prog". And that's not my opinion or my desire. That's an historical fact ; proto-prog(ressive) the term wasn't existed in 60s.
Proto-prog the term will appear in the mid 70s by the records dealers to firm at their lists that one of Rock (not pop-rock) styles of late 60s / early 70s. As I already said, it was Hammond organ driven, pretty heavy and "greasy" sound (with a mellotron too, but not synths - as a general rule), very often with a touch of Psychedelia, Jazz and Classical music.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Svetonio - March 25 2015 at 04:09
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Points: 13097 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 01:13
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

(proto-prog=Hammond organ driven heavy rock that was played on late 60s / early 70s, mainly British, but can be detected in USA and other countries too)
 
That is the most daft and incorrect definition for proto-prog I have ever heard. I think we went through this before on this forum and decided you didn't know what you were talking about. It doesn't get any better the second time around.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 00:50
Deep Purple is the best British proto prog (proto-prog=Hammond organ driven heavy rock that was played on late 60s / early 70s, mainly British, but can be detected in USA and other countries too) band in my opinion.

Edited by Svetonio - March 25 2015 at 00:52
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Points: 355 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 17:20

The Who for me, definitely. Daltrey is a brilliant singer, Entwistle and Moon need no introduction, and Townsend is a fantastic songwriter who knows his limits in regards to playing.
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 06:51
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

I went with Spooky Tooth mainly because of the line up and the great album Spooky Two.
Besides, they don't get enough mention around here. I'm glad you included them.
 
Now I know what the problem is. Can you repeat that? "They don't get enough mention around here", but maybe we should ask Captain Beyond why that is? Captain Beyond is a character on Doctor Who. Rod Evans who was a Tom Jones type was beat into shape by Deep Purple and in the end, receives more credit than Spooky Tooth any day of the week.
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Points: 9872 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 04:52
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Geesh.....another impossible choice.....I love at least 5 or 6 of those and like most of the rest.
This is torture. Confused
 
Ok....went with The Who.....
The Who...Confusedtorture vote...
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Points: 20631 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2015 at 14:07
Geesh.....another impossible choice.....I love at least 5 or 6 of those and like most of the rest.
This is torture. Confused
 
Ok....went with The Who.....
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Points: 8642 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2015 at 11:27
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Points: 26138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2015 at 10:27
I'll give my vote to the Move, with a respectful tip of the hat to The Who, who influenced them greatly.
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Points: 2689 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2015 at 10:04
Then you can make your own poll.  Big smile


Edited by Stool Man - February 22 2015 at 10:04
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Points: 44355 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2015 at 09:40
Originally posted by Stool Man Stool Man wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

voted for Deep purple because i like the Evans era a lot
I admit that, again, I don't know all the bands in the list, and a few don't interest me anymore

big omission - Procol Harum.


They're listed as Crossover
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1105


that may be, i still think they're proto-prog Big smile
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