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Topic ClosedIs David Bowie prog?
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Poll Question: Is David Bowie prog?
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 03:38
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ So, if you have an organ on marimba repeat, it does not give an electronic sound to the song?
The marimba is a percussion instrument, the organ is replicating that sound, just as it does on a Hammond. Using that is not an "electronic sound" as such. Townshend created a homage to Terry Riley inspired by Riley's A Rainbow in Curved Air, but he did not recreate the electronic music of Riley, he remained within populuar music strictures of standard chord structures (using the inbuilt one-key chords of the Lowery played arpeggio), he did not use the modal sequential serialism of Riley, nor did he use atonal layering or shifting rhythmns. One is a pioneer, the other is a pastiche. I love Baba O'Riley and it is my favourite Who track, but it is not the melding of electronic music and popular music that people claim it to be,
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 03:20
^ So, if you have an organ on marimba repeat, it does not give an electronic sound to the song?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 03:05
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


Sorry, yesterday I owed for the answers to these two questions.


1. 1971 is a little late in the day to be claiming to pioneer electronic music in rock. Electronics, electronic music and synthesisers had been used by other pop and rock artists before then. Both Won't Get Fooled Again and Baba O'Riley used a Lowery Berkshire Deluxe TBO-1 electric organ to create the iconic "synth" rhythm - it is not a sequencer, but an arpeggiator, and it is not producing modal tone sequences, but arpeggiated chords to a samba rhythm. Rather than being electronic music they are pastiches of serialism [they are pastiches because he could not change individual notes in the sequence, he could only change the whole chord]. Yes, Townshend used a VCS3 to modify the sound of the electric organ, but he used it as an effects unit [filter] just like a guitarist would use wah-wah foot peddle, not as a source of electronic sound. What you have is something that sounds like electronic music, but is not. Townshend did not even pioneer the use of arpeggio rhythms in rock.

 


I'd really like to hear an example that the electronic music was incorporated so majesticly in a rock song(s) before Baba and WGFA; a YouTube video will be fine. Anyway, let's see a second video from above.


3. The two examples of "breaking the mold" songs are 2 and 3 short pop songs played in sequence, these we call medleys. Many bands had produced single songs that broke the "3 minute mold" long before Tommy.


These songs are not pop songs, they are Rock at its best. These live performed parts of Tommy are not medleys. I know what you call medley. This is medley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY9sDk6NyQY (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9kP5_NAsBw (part 2)
Nice try but no coconut.
 
Baba O'Riley and Won't Get Fooled Again are not incorporating electronic music, I don't need to produce anything to show that electronic music was incorporated into a[nother] rock song since those two songs didn't, you said "Mr Townshend  who is an electronic music pioneer in rock music". He wasn't.
 
A medley is a longer sequence constructed from several shorter ones, it matters not whether it uses all or part of each song as long as they seamlessly seque together, Live renditions of short songs segued together do not "break the mold" on the three minute pop song as you claimed The Who did with Tommy. It is immaterial whether you think they are pop or rock songs, you said " the composer who broked 3-minute mould of the pop song with Tommy". He didn't.
 
 
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 02:39
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:


Sorry, yesterday I owed for the answers to these two questions.


1. 1971 is a little late in the day to be claiming to pioneer electronic music in rock. Electronics, electronic music and synthesisers had been used by other pop and rock artists before then. Both Won't Get Fooled Again and Baba O'Riley used a Lowery Berkshire Deluxe TBO-1 electric organ to create the iconic "synth" rhythm - it is not a sequencer, but an arpeggiator, and it is not producing modal tone sequences, but arpeggiated chords to a samba rhythm. Rather than being electronic music they are pastiches of serialism [they are pastiches because he could not change individual notes in the sequence, he could only change the whole chord]. Yes, Townshend used a VCS3 to modify the sound of the electric organ, but he used it as an effects unit [filter] just like a guitarist would use wah-wah foot peddle, not as a source of electronic sound. What you have is something that sounds like electronic music, but is not. Townshend did not even pioneer the use of arpeggio rhythms in rock.

 


I'd really like to hear an example that the electronic music was incorporated so majesticly in a rock song(s) before Baba and WGFA; a YouTube video will be fine. Anyway, let's see a second video from above.


3. The two examples of "breaking the mold" songs are 2 and 3 short pop songs played in sequence, these we call medleys. Many bands had produced single songs that broke the "3 minute mold" long before Tommy.


These songs are not pop songs, they are Rock at its best. These live performed parts of Tommy are not medleys. I know what you call medley. This is medley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY9sDk6NyQY (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9kP5_NAsBw (part 2)

Edited by Svetonio - May 14 2013 at 02:51
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2013 at 02:04
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Sorry, yesterday I owed for the answers to these two questions.

1. 1971 is a little late in the day to be claiming to pioneer electronic music in rock. Electronics, electronic music and synthesisers had been used by other pop and rock artists before then. Both Won't Get Fooled Again and Baba O'Riley used a Lowery Berkshire Deluxe TBO-1 electric organ to create the iconic "synth" rhythm - it is not a sequencer, but an arpeggiator, and it is not producing modal tone sequences, but arpeggiated chords to a samba rhythm. Rather than being electronic music they are pastiches of serialism [they are pastiches because he could not change individual notes in the sequence, he could only change the whole chord]. Yes, Townshend used a VCS3 to modify the sound of the electric organ, but he used it as an effects unit [filter] just like a guitarist would use wah-wah foot peddle, not as a source of electronic sound. What you have is something that sounds like electronic music, but is not. Townshend did not even pioneer the use of arpeggio rhythms in rock.
 
3. The two examples of "breaking the mold" songs are 2 and 3 short pop songs played in sequence, these we call medleys. Many bands had produced single songs that broke the "3 minute mold" long before Tommy.


Edited by Dean - May 14 2013 at 02:27
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 23:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Mr Bowie can't be "essential to the prog related sub"; he's not an act  for example as The Who with Mr Townshend  who is an electronic music pioneer in rock music, the guitarist who created power chord and the composer who broked 3-minute mould of the pop song with Tommy;
 

 
1. How, where and when The Who pioneered electronic music in rock music




 

 
3. Which Tommy songs in particular broke the 3-minute mould. 


 


Sorry, yesterday I owed for the answers to these two questions.



Edited by Svetonio - May 13 2013 at 23:32
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Points: 30850 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 17:48
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:


Absolutely.
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 14:20
Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

Please explain:
 
1. How, where and when The Who pioneered electronic music in rock music. Answer: Er.

Yes, you're exactly right! It was in the small village of Er, outside of Wheretoforshire, that a proverbial fruit from a proverbial tree fell on a young Townshend's proverbial head, giving him the idea to pioneer electronic music. This happened at precisely 10am or thereabouts. In ancient Persian, they say, "Er O'Clock."
 
2. When did Peter Townshend create the power chord exactly. Answer: Er.

Again, correct answer, for the same reason above. Moving on...
 
3. Which Tommy songs in particular broke the 3-minute mould. (Given that 3-minutes is a figure of speech so we can define the typical pop song as anything between 2:30 and 4:30). Answer: Er. I give up.
 
Right again! The six hour track "Underture" (reduced considerably to fit within the confines of the vinyl record) was originally titled "Er. I Give Up."

A+

LOL
Gee, I never had an A+ before, thanks.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 12:53
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Mr Bowie can't be "essential to the prog related sub"; he's not an act  for example as The Who with Mr Townshend  who is an electronic music pioneer in rock music, the guitarist who created power chord and the composer who broked 3-minute mould of the pop song with Tommy;
Erm.
 
Please explain:
 
1. How, where and when The Who pioneered electronic music in rock music
 
2. When did Peter Townshend create the power chord exactly.
 
3. Which Tommy songs in particular broke the 3-minute mould. (Given that 3-minutes is a figure of speech so we can define the typical pop song as anything between 2:30 and 4:30)
 
Consider your answers carefully, use both sides of the paper if necessary.

The first thing that came to mind when I read this was that Who song. LOL

I, uh, can't explain why it came to mind.



Edited by Slartibartfast - May 13 2013 at 12:55
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 2689 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 12:30
The 3-minute pop song limitation was set by the old Jukebox companies, who (for obvious reasons) wanted popular songs to be short. They lost their tight grip on the music business in 1965, and Bob Dylan immediately wrote a six minute pop song called "Like A Rolling Stone". He recorded it in June 1965, while The Who were recording their debut album, more than three years before "Tommy"

Edited by Stool Man - May 13 2013 at 12:31
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 11:58
"Underture" is not a pop song.
 
 
 
just sayin' Geek
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Points: 1754 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 10:40
Please explain:
 
1. How, where and when The Who pioneered electronic music in rock music. Answer: Er.

Yes, you're exactly right! It was in the small village of Er, outside of Wheretoforshire, that a proverbial fruit from a proverbial tree fell on a young Townshend's proverbial head, giving him the idea to pioneer electronic music. This happened at precisely 10am or thereabouts. In ancient Persian, they say, "Er O'Clock."
 
2. When did Peter Townshend create the power chord exactly. Answer: Er.

Again, correct answer, for the same reason above. Moving on...
 
3. Which Tommy songs in particular broke the 3-minute mould. (Given that 3-minutes is a figure of speech so we can define the typical pop song as anything between 2:30 and 4:30). Answer: Er. I give up.
 
Right again! The six hour track "Underture" (reduced considerably to fit within the confines of the vinyl record) was originally titled "Er. I Give Up."

A+


Edited by jude111 - May 13 2013 at 11:03
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 10:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Mr Bowie can't be "essential to the prog related sub"; he's not an act  for example as The Who with Mr Townshend  who is an electronic music pioneer in rock music, the guitarist who created power chord and the composer who broked 3-minute mould of the pop song with Tommy;
Erm.
 
Please explain:
 
1. How, where and when The Who pioneered electronic music in rock music
 
2. When did Peter Townshend create the power chord exactly.
 
3. Which Tommy songs in particular broke the 3-minute mould. (Given that 3-minutes is a figure of speech so we can define the typical pop song as anything between 2:30 and 4:30)
 
Consider your answers carefully, use both sides of the paper if necessary.
1. Er,
2. Er,
3. Er
I give up.
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 10:09
Svetonio is right about the collage thing though, if it's to do with the lyrics. Bowie used to take a pair of scissors and cut up all the sentences to a tune, and then rearrange them in order to gain something new from the material.
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Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 10:04
Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

 
(Although I certainly disagree with you about Bowie not being a musical pioneer.) Your idea about a musical collage is really cool. I wonder though - I'm racking my brains thinking of his 70s work, and I don't hear any collages in there... You are suggesting that Bowie was following every popular trend in music, but in truth he was ahead of trends, setting them. Bowie was a true musical pioneer - it's his defining characteristic.
Fully agree, it doesn't matter if he used elements from this and that, everybody does that to a certain extent, but Bowie was a real trend-setter and a progressive artist. After Young Americans it could have been easy for him to settle into commercial soul-funk-disco stuff but he had the courage and integrity to move forward and experiment (Station to Station being still a transitional album but with the Berlin trilogy leaving no doubts about that).


Edited by Gerinski - May 13 2013 at 10:06
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 09:56
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Mr Bowie can't be "essential to the prog related sub"; he's not an act  for example as The Who with Mr Townshend  who is an electronic music pioneer in rock music, the guitarist who created power chord and the composer who broked 3-minute mould of the pop song with Tommy;
Erm.
 
Please explain:

 
2. When did Peter Townshend create the power chord exactly.
 

Unhappy




That would be because he didn't. Very apt that you chose Bowie's cover of the Who's I Can't Explain, which was in turn influenced by:
 
 
"It can't be beat for straightforward Kink copying." ~ Pete Townshend (1994).
 
 
You can guess that the answers to the other two questions I posed are also not what you think they are. I like The Who but there is an awful lot of nonsense and mythology about their supposed role in pioneering rock music, it's not even certain that they were the first to produce a Rock Opera.


Edited by Dean - May 13 2013 at 10:00
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 09:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Mr Bowie can't be "essential to the prog related sub"; he's not an act  for example as The Who with Mr Townshend  who is an electronic music pioneer in rock music, the guitarist who created power chord and the composer who broked 3-minute mould of the pop song with Tommy;
Erm.
 
Please explain:

 
2. When did Peter Townshend create the power chord exactly.
 

Unhappy
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 09:23
Originally posted by jude111 jude111 wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Mr Bowie can't be "essential to the prog related sub"; he's not an act  for example as The Who with Mr Townshend  who is an electronic music pioneer in rock music, the guitarist who created power chord and the composer who broked 3-minute mould of the pop song with Tommy;
Mr Bowie put together his collage of what he heard at the time and it worked great and it is here, but pop art collages prepared wtih magnificent pop hits does not mean Progressive Rock.


Every act here in PA (or its prog-related genre) is a "music pioneer in rock music"? Is that a prerequisite?

(Although I certainly disagree with you about Bowie not being a musical pioneer.) Your idea about a musical collage is really cool. I wonder though - I'm racking my brains thinking of his 70s work, and I don't hear any collages in there... You are suggesting that Bowie was following every popular trend in music, (...)

Exactly. His music is  like a beautiful palimpsest painting.
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Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 09:20
Bowie is listed as Prog-Related.
I'm not sure if people here are trying to say 'it should be listed as proper Prog' or 'it should not be listed in PA at all'.

For me Prog-Related is where he fits, I think not having him in PA would be a big miss, but indeed he does not fit in any of the 'traditional' Prog sub-genres.

So what's all the buzz about?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2013 at 08:34
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Mr Bowie can't be "essential to the prog related sub"; he's not an act  for example as The Who with Mr Townshend  who is an electronic music pioneer in rock music, the guitarist who created power chord and the composer who broked 3-minute mould of the pop song with Tommy;
Erm.
 
Please explain:
 
1. How, where and when The Who pioneered electronic music in rock music
 
2. When did Peter Townshend create the power chord exactly.
 
3. Which Tommy songs in particular broke the 3-minute mould. (Given that 3-minutes is a figure of speech so we can define the typical pop song as anything between 2:30 and 4:30)
 
Consider your answers carefully, use both sides of the paper if necessary.


Edited by Dean - May 13 2013 at 09:32
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