Genesis of Classic Prog : When did it all begin ? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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FusionKing View Drop Down

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Joined: December 28 2009
Location: Scotland
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Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:52

Well, it seems to me that, prog starts to really get going in '69. Check out an album by Web called 'I Spider' from that year, true prog, definately. But if you take all of the big prog bands far back enough, it appears that prog began around '67-'68.

"Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself" - Sartre

tamijo

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Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
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Points: 4287

Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:38

That is the kind of question, where you will never be able to get a clear answer.

Where im from, it wasent even used by progheads while prog. was peaking, but i remember someone in here saying they used it in the US.

Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours

carlmarx38 View Drop Down

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Joined: February 01 2010
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Points: 60

Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:03

If they sold many records or not, isnt that besides the point ?

             Yes, although I'm trying with this blog (and the Time line Project on my other blog),
      to also convey the Historical perspective of what was actually happening if you were
      there at the time between 69-71.....If you were an average "Prog Fan" in 1970, you probably
      never heard of Magma, Soft Machine, or Gentle Giant, even though they all had debut
      albums out at that time. Maybe you bought Saucerful of Secrets, Freak Out, and Days of
      Future Passed, but you didn't think of yourself as a "prog fan", because the term didn't
      really exist yet. But you probably associated yourself with this "cool new music" and
maybe loosely associated these bands on that basis (?)

   The big question is "When did the term Prog Rock first get used ?"

tamijo

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287

Posted: April 16 2010 at 12:03

Prog. contains a multitude of sub genres, only very remotely connected in their style, and the way they sound. Making a direct connection between "We are only in it"/"The Piper" and "The Crimson King" in an analyse of music development seems to me absurd. You would only have to listen to "The Crimson King"

1 time, and you will know, that this is the album. Setting the standarts for Classic prog.

Moody Blues and others , including The Beatles, did steps in that direction, but Crims went all the way.

Frank'y and Floyd are also pioners of Prog., but compleetly diffrent in styles.

If they sold many records or not, isnt that besides the point ?

Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours

carlmarx38 View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: February 01 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 60

Posted: April 15 2010 at 13:18

Looking for a minute at the database for Prog Archives, it becomes clear that nothing much

happened until 1967. There was "Freak Out" by Zappa in 1966, but in '67 there were several

releases which seem to be essential to the development of "prog as we know it" (whatever that

is) :

DAYS OF FUTURE PASSED (Moody Blues)

PROCOL HARUM (first album)

PIPER AT THE GATES OF DAWN (Pink Floyd)

ABSOLUTELY FREE

Then in 1968 there was the advent of the Canturbury Scene, with debut albums by

Caravan and Soft Machine, in addition to new releases by Zappa ("We're Only In It For the

Money"), Moody Blues ("In Search of the Lost Chord"), and Pink Floyd ("Saucerful of Secrets").

......but do any of these really count as Prog ? Of all the above-mentioned titles, the

Canturbury bands seem the closest to what later became known as classic prog, but they

were both practically unknown at the time in the UK, and especially in the States (did

CARAVAN or SOFT MACHINE even chart in the UK ?) In terms of visibility, I would have to

give the nod to "Days of Future Passed" or "Piper at the Gates of Dawn". "Future Passed"

was a sizeable hit, especially in the States, where it hit #3 (it peaked at only #27 in the UK).

But from the perspective of Prog Archives, Moody Blues is still only a "crossover" band

(a point I don't really argue with) while early Floyd is considered "Space Rock".

carlmarx38 View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: February 01 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 60

Posted: April 15 2010 at 12:43

( The idea for this blog is part of an ongoing project to create a new article for inclusion in the

"Prog Rock Guides" section, which is in dire need of better articles and more complete

information on the genesis and history of Progressive Rock. If you have ideas, or would like

to contribute or collaborate on that project, let me know !)

____________________________________________________________________________________

I was recently reading reviews of "In The Court of the Crimson King" over in the King

Crimson section, as I have recently been rediscovering the band (as a result of my new-found

appreciation of the "Larks' Tongues" and "Red" albums).....As I waded through the dozens of

reviews, I noticed a common theme which kept popping up in many of the reviews, usually

saying something like "....Crimson King" was the First True Prog Album" (!)

I know there are many who have stated this notion, including some noteable and well-known

rock journalists. So I am not here to argue the point, nor to defend it. But for several days now

the thought has been lurking in my mind, "Is That True ?" When was the true starting point for

prog, as a true genre ?

To research the idea, I have been compiling info on release dates and chart positions for

the seminal prog releases from about the time of "Court of the Crimson King" up through about

1975. I know it is a matter of opinion what albums to include, so for the time being, I will consider

this to be a work in progress. So far, I have been looking at all major releases by the bands which

were big sellers, but also bands which have, in subsequent decades become well-known

contributors to the genre. This includes bands like Caravan who weren't so well-known at

the time of their classic releases, but also bands like PFM and Banco, who have recently become

well-known as contributors to the early history of prog.

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
FusionKing Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: December 28 2009 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 522	Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:52
	Well, it seems to me that, prog starts to really get going in '69. Check out an album by Web called 'I Spider' from that year, true prog, definately. But if you take all of the big prog bands far back enough, it appears that prog began around '67-'68.
	"Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself" - Sartre

tamijo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: January 06 2009 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 4287	Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:38
	That is the kind of question, where you will never be able to get a clear answer. Where im from, it wasent even used by progheads while prog. was peaking, but i remember someone in here saying they used it in the US.
	Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours

carlmarx38 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Groupie Joined: February 01 2010 Status: Offline Points: 60	Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:03
	If they sold many records or not, isnt that besides the point ? Yes, although I'm trying with this blog (and the Time line Project on my other blog), to also convey the Historical perspective of what was actually happening if you were there at the time between 69-71.....If you were an average "Prog Fan" in 1970, you probably never heard of Magma, Soft Machine, or Gentle Giant, even though they all had debut albums out at that time. Maybe you bought Saucerful of Secrets, Freak Out, and Days of Future Passed, but you didn't think of yourself as a "prog fan", because the term didn't really exist yet. But you probably associated yourself with this "cool new music" and maybe loosely associated these bands on that basis (?) The big question is "When did the term Prog Rock first get used ?"

tamijo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: January 06 2009 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 4287	Posted: April 16 2010 at 12:03
	Prog. contains a multitude of sub genres, only very remotely connected in their style, and the way they sound. Making a direct connection between "We are only in it"/"The Piper" and "The Crimson King" in an analyse of music development seems to me absurd. You would only have to listen to "The Crimson King" 1 time, and you will know, that this is the album. Setting the standarts for Classic prog. Moody Blues and others , including The Beatles, did steps in that direction, but Crims went all the way. Frank'y and Floyd are also pioners of Prog., but compleetly diffrent in styles. If they sold many records or not, isnt that besides the point ?
	Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours

carlmarx38 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Groupie Joined: February 01 2010 Status: Offline Points: 60	Posted: April 15 2010 at 13:18
	Looking for a minute at the database for Prog Archives, it becomes clear that nothing much happened until 1967. There was "Freak Out" by Zappa in 1966, but in '67 there were several releases which seem to be essential to the development of "prog as we know it" (whatever that is) : DAYS OF FUTURE PASSED (Moody Blues) PROCOL HARUM (first album) PIPER AT THE GATES OF DAWN (Pink Floyd) ABSOLUTELY FREE Then in 1968 there was the advent of the Canturbury Scene, with debut albums by Caravan and Soft Machine, in addition to new releases by Zappa ("We're Only In It For the Money"), Moody Blues ("In Search of the Lost Chord"), and Pink Floyd ("Saucerful of Secrets"). ......but do any of these really count as Prog ? Of all the above-mentioned titles, the Canturbury bands seem the closest to what later became known as classic prog, but they were both practically unknown at the time in the UK, and especially in the States (did CARAVAN or SOFT MACHINE even chart in the UK ?) In terms of visibility, I would have to give the nod to "Days of Future Passed" or "Piper at the Gates of Dawn". "Future Passed" was a sizeable hit, especially in the States, where it hit #3 (it peaked at only #27 in the UK). But from the perspective of Prog Archives, Moody Blues is still only a "crossover" band (a point I don't really argue with) while early Floyd is considered "Space Rock".

carlmarx38 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Groupie Joined: February 01 2010 Status: Offline Points: 60	Posted: April 15 2010 at 12:43
	( The idea for this blog is part of an ongoing project to create a new article for inclusion in the "Prog Rock Guides" section, which is in dire need of better articles and more complete information on the genesis and history of Progressive Rock. If you have ideas, or would like to contribute or collaborate on that project, let me know !) ____________________________________________________________________________________ I was recently reading reviews of "In The Court of the Crimson King" over in the King Crimson section, as I have recently been rediscovering the band (as a result of my new-found appreciation of the "Larks' Tongues" and "Red" albums).....As I waded through the dozens of reviews, I noticed a common theme which kept popping up in many of the reviews, usually saying something like "....Crimson King" was the First True Prog Album" (!) I know there are many who have stated this notion, including some noteable and well-known rock journalists. So I am not here to argue the point, nor to defend it. But for several days now the thought has been lurking in my mind, "Is That True ?" When was the true starting point for prog, as a true genre ? To research the idea, I have been compiling info on release dates and chart positions for the seminal prog releases from about the time of "Court of the Crimson King" up through about 1975. I know it is a matter of opinion what albums to include, so for the time being, I will consider this to be a work in progress. So far, I have been looking at all major releases by the bands which were big sellers, but also bands which have, in subsequent decades become well-known contributors to the genre. This includes bands like Caravan who weren't so well-known at the time of their classic releases, but also bands like PFM and Banco, who have recently become well-known as contributors to the early history of prog.