Magma´s ideology controversy. Read this!

OK............. So Vander may be a fascist. Bad !!! I seriously abhor Adolf Hitler, SS, Holocaust and all murdering fascists/nazis.  

But what about Robert Wyatt from Soft Machine and Matching Mole ? The consequence of this thread is that he too should be boycotted and the 1, 2 and Third album by Soft Machine + his solo work + all Matching Mole albums should also be boycotted.

The reason is his support for three of four worst genocidal regimes in the history of the mankind. The fourth was Hitler's regime, btw. Robert Wyatt supported and is rumored to still support Stalin's paranoid and inept running of USSR which cost tens of million innocent lives. Ditto for Mao Tse Tung's running of China & Pol Pot's genocide in Cambodia.

We are not talking rumors here. We are talking molten lava hot facts. Or what do you think the "Little Red Record" and the art work means ? You would not seriously think that the art work describes the latest cookery book from Angela Smith ? Or do you believe Robert Wyatt is holding a vacuum cleaner in his hands there ?  

Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot also had and have many other fans among the prog rock musicians. This too is molten lava hot facts. Not rumors like the allegations against Vander.

Sorry, but a genocide is a genocide. Those who abhor Vander on the basis of rumors, must also abhor the likes of Robert Wyatt if they have any credibility. There is no compromise here, no middle ground and no excuses. The life of a Cambodian peasant has the same worth as the life of a Jew. Anything else is called racism. Are you guys who condemn Vander racists ? 

   

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - September 10 2010 at 01:48

Obviously the guy doesn't care about sales-somebody mentioned he lived in a castle, right? That's not a guy who's hurting for scratch. I'm not trying to cripple the guy financially, it's just the principle of the thing. 

40footwolf wrote: The music may be beautiful, it may even be genius, but I can't in all good conscience support it with my money, knowing what I know.

What exactly do you know though?  NOTHING has been proven.  Even if the rumors DO turn out to be true, it's not like Vander is the first (or last) musician in history to hold unsavory views.  I know for sure I'm not going to let unproven rumors spoil my enjoyment of one of my favorite bands, and I know that I'm going to enjoy their concert next weekend, I know that I'll enjoy meeting the band, and I know that how he leads his personal life is his own business.  Not mine, not yours, not the world's, unless he does something truly dangerous or upsetting.

Obviously, I can't change your mind if you're so keen on not buying their music, but I don't agree with the reasoning.

Potential rumour? No, a potential rumour is one that says Mike Portnoy left Dream Theater (true) to drum for Led Zeppelin. (untrue a.fa.i.k...) Just an example of a potential rumour.

CV undertook racist tirades at the 2009 le Triton concerts (would love to have a copy of one or those if they exist.)

Seems to me that Magma are a musically facinating band which is what attracts the members and their audience. The basis of the Kobaian totalitarian idea with master race ideas is borne from CV's fascination with Hitler. This is all news to me (as of very recently.) I'm not surer whther her's a Holocaust denier or apologist but it seems the Nazi intent has underwritten the core base of Magma's ideas.

So what do we audients do? Ignore CV's ideas? Absorb them? Acknowledge the inspiration for the Kobaian idea (Nazi-ism) as well as enjoy the music? Decry everything about Magma?

Frankly the contradictions (Jewish wife, love of jazz, tributes to Coltrane) do not square with his (apparent?) fasination with matters Nazi. Now CV's view of Nazi-sm is very post WW2 but clearly they had an influence. Far be it for one as lowly as me to demand an explanation but the responsibilty of artists accounting for their art is that of the media. Tough questions which may not work.

From what I've read CV is a very rich man living in a castle. His wealth allows him to pursue his Utopian artisitic dream / nightmare scenario and his drumming and composition talent attract fine European musicians. I know these Nazi rumours have sprouted and some purported that they were not denied for publicity purposes.

Recent and recently re-published interviews (translated or otherwise) demand justification. Does he really think that worser of India and the Afican Continent for example? Do Magma pursue a discredited political ethos? Actively? What of the contradictions? How will this affect Magma commercially? CV what does your first LP cover really mean? The Swastikas are not there byu accident are they?

 It may be illegal to be a Nazi in France, it certainly is in Germany a country whose feelings are undertandably very sensitive on the subject. This was the source of the split between Jannick Top and CV as well as recent member departures. His associations with RIO bands could prove compromised; where one band might be Nazi so might others. Admittedly this ius just a speculation by me but it should be borne in mind. Well mine anyway as I love RIO bands...

Is it okay to like the music, take from it the meaning of the disturbing nature of interplantary master race and the threats to humanity that implies?

I can like Ride of The Valkyries without liking Wagner's politics. And what of the pop parrallel of Michael Jackson. Many fans chose to ignore his discretionary impulses toward young people. it's not who is worse but instead of fandom and adopting he cult of personality perhaps it's time to junk that idea altogther.

I can place my interpretaion upon Magma's music. I had identified the clear totaltarian themes but never understood them to be actively promoted by CV and Magma. I could be wrong. I would also hate to do a disserice to Magma but these actual rumours do require a response- it is Nazi-ism. Normally I would hesitate to demand such justification - not for me etc. As indicated elsewhere such a demand is fascistic in nature.

But this is Nazi-ism and it is dangerous. Perhaps the needs of that individual are out weighed by the needs of all other individuals?

Fascism is regrettably very popular, jusy look at the cult of Political Correction and it's grip on society. I've known people here in NZ and now that are actively scared to say something - anything about anything just in case they risk saying something that can be used against them. Life follows art at times and maybe Magma have indicated we live in facist Kobaia after all. I'm not saying CV is justified in some of his opinions (to which we are all entitiled no matter how distasteful) but he may be correct in how totalitarianism and loss of freedom may be the way of the  world.

He could be wright but it's how he got tob so  - the inspiration of Kobaia that demands answers. It cannot really be ignored can it?

I wonder what's next?

http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/some-words-about-recent-controversy.html

A recent link which hopefully should work. Just been reading it.

What does my nom de plume here on PA really mean?

Huh, I was thinking about getting into Magma but now I might wait 'til the guy's dead. Don't want no stinkin' Nazi earning a living on my buck. 

http://kohntarkosz.blogspot.com/2009/11/some-words-about-recent-controversy.html

^ for those not familiar with the above album, The Residents satirically compare American hit radio to Hitler and fascism to great effect, its a brilliant album.       (you can check out my "5 star" review)

Edited by Easy Money - September 04 2010 at 16:08

CCVP wrote: Logan wrote: SaltyJon wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: Starhammer wrote: Sorry for resurrecting this thread from the tomb of Emmehnteht-Re, but have you noticed that there is a swastika on the cover of Magma's first album? Yes. Did you notice there is a representation of a mad world on the cover of Magma's first album? ^ What he said.  Plus, there are actually two swastikas on there.  And there's the eagle talon which is a traditional symbol of Germany's coat of arms. The cover is hardly a happy picture. And of course the Vander vocalising from Kobaia's "Stoah" which is clearly reminiscent of  Hitler. There are plenty of Nazi elements/ parallels which have been incorporated into the Kobaian mythology, but I would not call such story-telling an endorsement of Naziism (e.g. Theusz Hamtaahk (Time of Hate). Well, Kobaiian mythology does bring the subject that the planet Earth is os the verge of collapse and those nazi imagery could be the representation of that collapse. IMO the guys could just put the USSR symbol and have the same effect without such drama. Stalin killed more people than Hitler in one year alone and his name was far from being inspiring, by the last years of his government. An unfortunate choice by Mr. Vander and the guys of Magma as a way to represent apocalypse? Yes, but definitely sums up the idea of the album (look at the cover of magma's debut): the nazis crushing the peoples of the world wile the only thing they can do is try and fled with dispair, leaving their destructed homes behind. Isn't that somehow close to the apocalypse?

I think that using Naziism (ideology, Teutonic mythology) for inspiration is much more fertile, cohesive, and proved more culturally and politically relevant than referencing Stalin's USSR (plus, musically, Wagner, who was beloved of the Nazi's, is a Magma influence). Plus, then one might expect a Slavic sounding language which may not have suited Vander. Magma is dramatic. Using the USSR as a symbol would not be nearly as powerful, or meaningful in terms of a consistent world-view, nor for the depths of mythology drawn upon/ arts.... In terms of story-telling and musical sound, I think referencing Naziism (and the aesthetics/ arts that appealed to Nazis and myth that Nazi's drew upon) was a good Totalitarian choice, and is something that more people would "get".


Edited by Logan - September 04 2010 at 13:37

Logan wrote: SaltyJon wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: Starhammer wrote: Sorry for resurrecting this thread from the tomb of Emmehnteht-Re, but have you noticed that there is a swastika on the cover of Magma's first album? Yes. Did you notice there is a representation of a mad world on the cover of Magma's first album? ^ What he said.  Plus, there are actually two swastikas on there.  And there's the eagle talon which is a traditional symbol of Germany's coat of arms. The cover is hardly a happy picture. And of course the Vander vocalising from Kobaia's "Stoah" which is clearly reminiscent of  Hitler. There are plenty of Nazi elements/ parallels which have been incorporated into the Kobaian mythology, but I would not call such story-telling an endorsement of Naziism (e.g. Theusz Hamtaahk (Time of Hate).

Well, Kobaiian mythology does bring the subject that the planet Earth is os the verge of collapse and those nazi imagery could be the representation of that collapse.

IMO the guys could just put the USSR symbol and have the same effect without such drama. Stalin killed more people than Hitler in one year alone and his name was far from being inspiring, by the last years of his government.

An unfortunate choice by Mr. Vander and the guys of Magma as a way to represent apocalypse? Yes, but definitely sums up the idea of the album (look at the cover of magma's debut): the nazis crushing the peoples of the world wile the only thing they can do is try and fled with dispair, leaving their destructed homes behind. Isn't that somehow close to the apocalypse?