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Topic ClosedHow did prog rock become the laughing stock...

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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 12:41
PS: If you want to know what pre-1976 Anti-Prog in the UK looked like, it is this:
...and that was also the can't-play-guitar guitar-based 3-chord 12-bar blueprint to most UK Punk music that followed it. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 12:03
Hmm...

All these theories sound plausible but on closer examination ...? 

One premise is that Prog was middle class because the musicians and their audience were middle class, and likewise Punk was working-class because the musicians and audience were working-class. The big problem with that is the youth-population of Britain didn't suddenly go from being mainly middle-class to mainly working class in between the end of 1975 and the middle of 1976. Which raises two related questions: what were the working-class listening to before Punk? and what where the middle-classes listening to after Prog? For there to have been a class-divide between the two genres of music would have meant that they could have (and should have) co-existed without one affecting the other. That the (disaffected/unemployed) working-classes suddenly developed a music of their own would have had no bearing on what middle-class college students listened to when toking on a spliff in their halls of residence or student digs. Prog and Punk appealed to young people of all classes. The only "class" that hated Punk were the middle-aged, middle-class middle-Englanders - (aka Mrs Mary Whitehouse and her ilk) and they hated all youth culture regardless of what it was (and still do). [NB: the notion of race here (i.e. white middle-class) is irrelevant - neither Prog nor Punk had much impact on the non-white community who were content with listening to Soul, Disco, R&B and Reggae music]

It is a similar situation for the musicians, though the evidence of a class-divide among musicians is less clear. While it seems superficially true that to achieve a level of musical proficiency to play Prog requires a formal musical education that in the 1970s could be presumed to be only available to the middle-classes, we know that very few Prog musicians had this level of musical background and most of them were self-taught. So there were certainly many working-class Prog musicians and several well documented cases of middle-class punk musicians - Joe Strummer was the son of a diplomat, the 'Bromley Contingent' came from the same middle-class area of suburban Greater London as Peter Frampton and David Bowie, the Stranglers came from Guildford (probably the most middle-class town in middle England's stock-broker belt). It is estimated that nearly half the Punk musicians were middle-class and a third of them had a university education - Punk as was much a product of Art School alumni as Prog ever was, if not more so... And that's a significant point - Punk was not just music - it was an art movement - the Sex Pistols were manufactured by two middle-class Art students with a "product" to sell; whereas Prog (unlike Psychedelia before it) was just music without a subculture and Art-background to support, promote and maintain it. 

Of course, therein lies the problem with Prog and why we find it so hard to define, classify, and compartmentalise. Whether through accident or intent, it lacked that cohesive common-ground to unify and define it - so it was easy to ridicule Prog because anything chosen to illustrate how pompous and overblown it was automatically became representative of the whole genre, even when in reality it wasn't. For example Genesis taking hampers of food on tour with them is used to show that they were aloof and middle-class, whereas the truth is they couldn't afford to feed themselves in restaurants and bars every night. I would suggest here (and this is just a theory) that Prog musicians distanced themselves from any form of subculture in direct reaction to the post-hippy come-down and the death of the Summer of Love - Prog was a leaderless anti-hippy freakdom of music devoid of all that non-music baggage whose only ethos was individuality and self-expression. If Punk ever honestly rebelled against anything, it was that - Anarchists in name only, Punk was actually conservative and conformist - to be a Punk meant adopting the whole shebang: the art, the music, the style and the uniform dress-code - right from the tippy toes of their Doc Marten boots that Mummy bought for them to their tooth-paste spiked hair and the "I, Individual" tattoo drawn in biro on their foreheads - One cannot be simultaneously left wing and libertarian, and there the whole class-divide comes crashing down because class and politics are only loosely aligned - bands such as Sham 69 had as many right-wing skinhead followers as they had left-wing, no-wing punk followers... On the political spectrum what came after Punk was ten years of Thatcher and Regan Conservatism, not in reaction to Punk but as a direct disaffected consequence of it - the people who voted for them were the same people who pogo'd and gobbed to Anarchy In The UK and God Save The Queen four years earlier.

The "classing-down" of Punk and its musicians was a media invention that snowballed because it sold newspapers and (eventually) records. In retrospect it made bigger "stars" of the music journalists who wrote it than most of the Punk musicians they wrote about. Middle-class Punk musicians latched on to this because it was a lucrative bandwagon to climb aboard - all free publicity is good publicity and when the music press is "on your side" then it would be daft to deny that it was true. 

Similarly, the myth that they couldn't play their instruments, a put-down that had historically been levelled at any emergent music trend by established 'professional' musicians (this had been said of all pop bands from the Beatles onwards and still persists today), was turned-around and used as a battle-cry with such conviction that the public believed it not only to be true, but believed it to be a prerequisite for making this "new wave" of music long after the evidence presented by post-punk and all that followed after has proven it to be false. To be a Punk meant conforming to the ideal regardless of how proficient the musician really was - flash solos and musical self-indulgences were frowned upon (by the music-media) and musicianship was suppressed (by the musicians themselves).

[And seriously, I couldn't give a flying fart what Johnny-come-lately Jello Biafra said or thought three or four years after Punk had officially curled-up its toes and died...]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 11:57
Decades ago ( early to mid 80's)  I interview multiple punk rockers.   One issue came up over and over again.   I'll try to distill and paraphrase the gist of their point of view.

A certain prog/punk guitarist told me something like this...

"In high school around 77 I played in a progressive band.   The keyboardist, drummer, and bass player were all band dweebs with whom I had nothing in common except they were the only people in school talented enough to play Yes covers.  Then punk hit the scene and I realized I could teach my best friends to play guitar, bass, and drums.  And so I did.   We had a blast because I was playing with my friends.  Punk allowed a massive group of untalented musicians to finally rock out!   We didn't need a Robert Plant or Freddie Mercury either.  Our vocalist screamed pissed off vocals.   We got girls, had fun, did drugs, and drank a lot of beer.  So of course we hated progressive music. "  

Like I said, I heard different versions of that story over and over.   Progressive Rock had to go because it's popularity stopped a whole generation of air guitarist from going electric. 


Edited by omphaloskepsis - June 02 2016 at 11:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 11:19
Originally posted by Aussie-Byrd-Brother Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:


It's all good....to many people (like myself in this instance) Jello Biafra is someone who's music is completely irrelevant, from an artist completely worth ignoring, despite what a bunch of trendy kids like to think

Sorry, but I can't agree with that at all.  

I lived in the SF bay area and saw Jello and the Dead Kennedy's several times through the 80's and some historical perspective is necessary to appreciate what they were doing.  In the 80's, Jello's lyrics and the DK album artwork promoted an anti-Reagan political stance that was extremely relevant.  Many in the US felt that Reagan was just a couple of moments away from starting WWIII with Russia ("the evil empire") at his whim.  The DK's took that issue straight on...not to mention the hypocrisy of TV evangelists and our undeclared war in central America.  Also, the album artwork and 12" x 12" posters included in their albums (especially HR Gigers "Penis Envy" included in the DK's Frankenchrist album) put Jello at the forefront of the fight for freedom of expression and a direct target of lawsuits.  There were other US hardcore bands with similar political agenda's (The Minutemen, Millions of Dead Christians - aka MDC, etc) but Jello and the DK's were always the lead dog in the fight against Reagan conservatism...and as such the biggest targets.  

Musically, I could care less what Jello had to say about prog bands (though it is ironic if he bashed ELP with their HR Giger connection then used Gigers artwork to push the bounds of freedom of expression).  The DK's were not about the music (cool as it was) but the message Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 10:43
The big bands of the 70's, meaning Yes, King Crimson, etc, became popular mainly because the hippies liked to trip to their music, and the longer the piece the better. Many great musicians saw this as a chance to express their musical ideas, and their talents too. Later on, the next generations were not really interested in that, favoring the more simplistic, short pieces of music, which is what punk music/artists offered.
Throughout history, the vast majority of people have been interested in simple music, mainly with a good dancing beat and a catchy tune to humm around, while a small portion of the population has been interested in a musical listening experience. Obviously, prog would fit in the second category, and it is logical that music critics, who make a living of it, would not favor a genre that most people would not get into, so putting it down is a natural consequence.


Edited by Manuel - June 02 2016 at 10:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 10:39
Holy moly - ridiculous

I myself like the Sex Pistols, Clash, etc. far more than ELP, who are dismal and horrible.  90% of Yes is also not in my cup of tea, despite their masterpieces.

And I listen primarily to prog - RIO, Avant, classic, kraut, etc.  

Musical tastes are not about technique, except for some musicians.  The context, message, etc. all matter a great deal in any artistic consumption.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 09:20
I'd guess that there were many arrogant prog fans (and perhaps even musicians) around who'd treasure their 13/8 rhythms and their musicians showing off their skills but would look down on people who'd play or listen to "simpler" music for which not much skill was needed (and where its lack was all too apparent). It may well have been a two-sided thing.

And then "you must destroy to build". (Einstuerzende Neubauten)


Edited by Lewian - June 02 2016 at 13:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 07:57
Phil Collins ruined Genesis ANHD prog CoolLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 07:22
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by ALotOfBottle ALotOfBottle wrote:

They did not hate  prog. It was comfortable for them to say so  and  it was supposed to be a part of their image. From what I understand, English society is quite class-based and  punks, being working class were not hip with the <span ="_tgc"="">bourgeoisie music that prog appeared to be. And it was! Greg Lake, for example, carried a persian carpet on tour. ELP in particular were a bourgeoisie band. But remember Sex Pistols also sold out and in a way betrayed ideas that they were fighting for. From as far as I know, </span>Johnny Rotten admitted that Aqualung was one of his favorite albums, while many years later Paul Cook came up to Phil Collins at an airport and said he had secretly been a great influence of his. It was not "hate", it was part of their image. They wanted people to think it was all about "hate". But indeed, prog became regarded as unfashionable and too escapist, if you will.

People are talking about Jello Biafra (whom I love BTW), but actually American punk was a much different thing than English punk originally. American punk in its spirit was much closer to prog, as it was music that wanted to be regarded as art. I'm talking about Dead Kennedys in particular here.




Think that may have been Rat Scabies not Paul Cook...

Some punk musicians may have grown up with prog in one shape or form, but I suspect there were very Sex Pistols fans who also dug Close to the Edge and Songs from the wood

Dang, forgive me, of course it was Rat Scabies, not Paul Cook. Sorry. Will edit my message.


Edited by ALotOfBottle - June 02 2016 at 07:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 07:09
Originally posted by ALotOfBottle ALotOfBottle wrote:

They did not hate  prog. It was comfortable for them to say so  and  it was supposed to be a part of their image. From what I understand, English society is quite class-based and  punks, being working class were not hip with the <span ="_tgc"="">bourgeoisie music that prog appeared to be. And it was! Greg Lake, for example, carried a persian carpet on tour. ELP in particular were a bourgeoisie band. But remember Sex Pistols also sold out and in a way betrayed ideas that they were fighting for. From as far as I know, </span>Johnny Rotten admitted that Aqualung was one of his favorite albums, while many years later Paul Cook came up to Phil Collins at an airport and said he had secretly been a great influence of his. It was not "hate", it was part of their image. They wanted people to think it was all about "hate". But indeed, prog became regarded as unfashionable and too escapist, if you will.

People are talking about Jello Biafra (whom I love BTW), but actually American punk was a much different thing than English punk originally. American punk in its spirit was much closer to prog, as it was music that wanted to be regarded as art. I'm talking about Dead Kennedys in particular here.




Think that may have been Rat Scabies not Paul Cook...

Some punk musicians may have grown up with prog in one shape or form, but I suspect there were very Sex Pistols fans who also dug Close to the Edge and Songs from the wood
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 07:07
It was less to do with music and more to do with the people I guess. For many, prog rock was viewed as an elitist form of music for middle class white students.

Britain was in a terrible state in the 70's, and 25 minute songs about wizards, aliens, topographic oceans, Greek mythology or science fiction didn't resonate with people who didn't have a pot to p!ss in. Punk was an outlet although this is a very high level and generalised view. In reality some people did like both prog rock and punk, but I imagine they were relatively few in number.

John Lydon was a fan of Hawkwind and VDGG, but that was the dark and anarchic side of prog rock. Punks didn't like the frilly shirts, capes and flashing lobster stage shows of the symphonic pomp monsters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 06:05
They did not hate  prog. It was comfortable for them to say so  and  it was supposed to be a part of their image. From what I understand, English society is quite class-based and  punks, being working class were not hip with the bourgeoisie music that prog appeared to be. And it was! Greg Lake, for example, carried a persian carpet on tour. ELP in particular were a bourgeoisie band. But remember Sex Pistols also sold out and in a way betrayed ideas that they were fighting for. From as far as I know, Johnny Rotten admitted that Aqualung was one of his favorite albums, while many years later Rat Scabies came up to Phil Collins at an airport and said he had secretly been a great influence of his. It was not "hate", it was part of their image. They wanted people to think it was all about "hate". But indeed, prog became regarded as unfashionable and too escapist, if you will.

People are talking about Jello Biafra (whom I love BTW), but actually American punk was a much different thing than English punk originally. American punk in its spirit was much closer to prog, as it was music that wanted to be regarded as art. I'm talking about Dead Kennedys in particular here.


Edited by ALotOfBottle - June 02 2016 at 07:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 05:57
It's all good....to many people (like myself in this instance) Jello Biafra is someone who's music is completely irrelevant, from an artist completely worth ignoring, despite what a bunch of trendy kids like to think [/QUOTE]

I do love the Dead Kennedys and Jello Biafra as a singer, but he is a complete blow hard and very annoying to listen to talk because all he does rant non stop.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 04:41
Originally posted by ster ster wrote:

The punks hated prog (and arena rock) because of its excess and perceived elitism.
They felt that the artist's focus on technique and extravagant shows was contrary to what rock n roll was about.
Exactly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 01:42
^ Klaus Flouride is wicked bassist.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 01:10
Originally posted by Captain Beefheart Captain Beefheart wrote:

Jello Biafra lists Yes in his top 5 WORST bands of all time and has also slammed Emerson Lake and Palmer. He is also a blow hard, but I just never understood how they could hate great musicianship so much. But with the other posters showed me it seems like the style and theatrics is what they hated. I never thought of that as I never saw any of those bands live.

It's all good....to many people (like myself in this instance) Jello Biafra is someone who's music is completely irrelevant, from an artist completely worth ignoring, despite what a bunch of trendy kids like to think

Edited by Aussie-Byrd-Brother - June 02 2016 at 01:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 01:03
Punk was working class, and Progressive was middle class. The U.K. is still divided along these lines, and others, and that allows for class structures, and groups to compete for control of each music scene as it comes along. After punk, we had student culture dominate the scene. Each new generation of kids gets a shot at it. Eventually, the new music gets absorbed by the pop industry and becomes the establishment. Then a new revolt starts, and so on. I was in the very first wave of punk bands, and packed out the Camden Palace, and Marquee, playing guitar in THE RATS, David Kubinik´s band. Who dumped us and took a solo career with A&M Records which bombed. He was a real RAT, haha, and deserved to fail. But I had a brilliant time, no regrets, and took part in that fresh energy. The new music gave us so many possibilities beyond copying what went before. That was a very creative moment to experience. I mean, who the hell was going to follow Hendrix? He had already done everything that could be done on the guitar. Punk made the guitar into a hammer, a simple working tool, nothing special. You could go nuts with it in a totally new way. Now we owned the Marquee Club! What fun!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 00:39
I think Prog was/is an easy target for critics because of some of the lyrical content and also some of the album covers.

People seem to think that Punk and Hip Hop and regular Rock songs are about the 'real world' while Prog is about the 'fantasy world'. So Prog is considered 'silly'. It's similar to how fantasy novels and sci-fi novels are not considered 'real literature'.

The same thing happens to Goth bands like Bauhaus and Sisters Of Mercy. People see the clothing of the band members and the song titles and immediately dismiss it without actually listening to the music carefully.

When I was a teenager, music magazines always dismissed bands like Led Zeppelin and King Crimson as bloated pretentious hippy fantasy music. So I never bothered listening to any of their albums. When I finally heard their music properly, I was amazed at how good it is.

Personally I don't trust any music critics at all, I've read so many reviews where it's obvious that they haven't listened to the music closely and they are just following the status quo of what other 'tastemakers' are saying.

At least half of the music I love to listen to is not 'approved' of by music critics or the general public.


Edited by King Only - June 02 2016 at 00:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2016 at 00:08
Punk was as much a disaffected youth movement as much as anything else. The 1970's were pretty grim, and the major prog acts had never really appealed to the urban masses.

Punk sought to tap into that feeling, and, even though some of the protagonists were well into their adulthood, did so very well. Punk was new, and for the "kids" (man), whilst prog was elitist, middle class, and the old. Such was a highly successful media narrative which has survived to this very day, witness the OP.

As other posts have pointed out, in reality there was a respect from many of the new wave musicians for their prog counterparts, this being clear from many interviews after the day. Punks, regrettably, slip into comfortable middle age as well
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2016 at 23:08
^Very possibly, but I've encountered this hatred from people I know who are professional musicians working in fields such as big band, orchestral, and jazz.  There's a huge amount of elitism there on their parts.  And yet they still tend to have that same prog-hate.  I haven't figured that one out yet.
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