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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 19:09
 ^ love you too.. now:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


The purpose of friends, family and community is to help each other through hard times. Now that the government provides everything, there's less incentive for people to get to know each other and play nice. That's why we've become so isolated and antisocial.


And what of the people - who you evidently haven't met yet - whose families have rejected them (yes it does happen)..  it sounds as if you simply haven't been exposed to enough different realities "The purpose of friends, family and community is to help each other through hard times".   I agree in principle, but principles aren't good enough, they aren't real.    That's coming from a place of ideas - which is to say idealism - but ideas don't exist, people do.  What conservatives are really  saying is "We don't think people should be helped in more than the most basic way--  their church, family and community should do it", which is a perfectly fine philosophy. 

What progressives are saying is "Bullsh*t, that's not reality and does not help those who don't have a strong family, who don't go to church (surprise surprise), and whose "community" cannot help. 

Just be honest:  you don't want to help those who can't help themselves.  Fine.  But the Dems are in charge and, yes, they're going to force an agenda they believe is necessary into the American system.  It's called political courage.  Screw whether or not it will 'hurt' the Dems or Obama.. is that really important?  Isn't what helps to improve a failing system what's important, and not the chances of being re-elected?  Of course it is.

The underlying issue here, which I've heard no one discuss on the news shows, is this:  The real fear of Republicans is not just a new Health Care system (which I do believe, to an extent, they oppose for real philosophical  reasons), it's Barrack Obama being successful and his changes being increasingly appreciated as the years and decades pass.  They don't like him or his point of view.

Heck you should be happy when Health Care passes, it means the Dems will be responsible and voted out and Obama only a 1-termer.

And of course another looming issue is Social Security which I believe should be changed, at least the age it kicks-in should be pushed back to 70 or 75, and that's just for starters





Edited by Atavachron - March 19 2010 at 19:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:57
By the way, I just want to say... I love you guys.HeartBig smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:56
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

In a free democratic society like we have in the US, the government is us. We are the government, we are a self-governing nation. The government is not the enemy, it is us, It is made up of people we freely elected. The laws we have were arrived at democratically as well, nobody forced anything on us, we decided our own laws and leaders.
This is true, but we are not now, nor have we ever been a true democracy. The founding fathers were against democracy because it results in a tyranny of the majority, where 51% of the people can take away the rights of the other 49%. That's why we have the constitution, to prevent certain bad things from happening.Incidentally, your point might just as well have been directed at The T, since he is the one who started this thread to complain about the current laws that "we decided."



Call it what you want, republic or democracy, it's still us, we decide, we vote for our leaders and our laws, the government is you and me and all who vote. As for T's OP, looks like the American people have changed their mind, we had the old system and now we are switching to something else.

Edited by Easy Money - March 19 2010 at 18:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:53
"On the surface, the Parasite expects the doctor to heal them for free, the farmer to feed them out of charity. How little they differ from the pervert who prowls the streets, looking for a victim he can ravish for his grotesque amusement." Andrew Ryan.

Seriously, some of you sound like caricatures.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:48
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Few people will put, in honest terms, what government health care really means, so here it is: It means that men with guns are going to take money by force from those that have earned it and give it to those that haven't. If they protest, they go to jail. If they resist going to jail strongly enough, they will be killed. Many people are okay with this plan and think it is fair. I don't. That's just where we disagree. I only wish people would express their views in concrete terms instead of in vague generalities like "the government should take care of poor people." If you believe that, fine, but say what you really mean. The government has no money of its own. Every dime they spend has to be forcibly taken from U.S. citizens (or borrowed, but that's a separate issue.)
 
I assume you are joking. If not you are a sorry excuse for a human being.

I always laugh when people say this to others as if it's an insult. People against Universal Healthcare are "sorry excuses for human beings", but the uneducated, moronic, idiots of the world who work at Mc.Donalds and collect welfare are model citizens. Go to school, get a decent job, don't have 50 children out of wedlock, and try and make something out of your f**king worthless life.  

Inb4: Stop watching Limbaugh and Beck filthy republican! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:47
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed? 

Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands.... 


I think it's interesting that you think me selfish, when I'm not the one who wants to confiscate other people's property and distribute it as I see fit. Wink

It is a very easy thing to be generous with other people's money. I want people to be generous with their own money.
 
jajaaja... so you think this is socialism... it's really funny... so tell us, please, what is the solution for people who are older and don't have money? or children that are too young to work and they have no covering and their parents are poor or unemployed? please, tell me, if your answer is accurate... there will be no injustice anymore in the world...


Well, since you asked: It's your responsibility to earn money. No one owes it to you. If you're old and you haven't saved, then I hope you have at least been nice to people. Back in the day, before social security, most old people moved in with their kids. I think that's a good thing. Now, the family structure is falling apart and I think that is the cause of many evils in the world. Additionally, America has an astounding amount of private charity. If people were not taxed through the noses, it would be even more astounding. I think you'll find that we're a pretty compassionate people on an individual level.
The purpose of friends, family and community is to help each other through hard times. Now that the government provides everything, there's less incentive for people to get to know each other and play nice. That's why we've become so isolated and antisocial.
The main point where we disagree is that you should money is a right, and I think it has to be earned. There are obviously cases where it's impossible for someone to earn a living for reasons beyond their control, and it's very sad, but we Americans have always been great about helping these people out of the kindness of our hearts and not because Uncle Sam forces us to.
 
I hardly see you doing that if you think that this is a perfect world in which everybody will succeed to save money... you know there's people who is unemployed because many reasons, and there's people who loose it all in catastrophies or just bad luck... you can't demand THEM to save if they don't have the chance... especially in a society as this, in which all that matters is that I can pass you over and have personal success while people is left broke. That's the system and you are expecting to that work...? I'm sure you won't be able or willing to help any unlucky guy who loosed it all... don't know man... but your arguments are really sad and somewhat evil... again you are just seeing your own nose... and I never said that somebody has to force you to do anything... it's just that is not as that simple... Thumbs Down
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:47
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

In a free democratic society like we have in the US, the government is us. We are the government, we are a self-governing nation. The government is not the enemy, it is us, It is made up of people we freely elected. The laws we have were arrived at democratically as well, nobody forced anything on us, we decided our own laws and leaders.

Thank you for pointing that out.  Whenever I hear people in this country trashing government I have to think "What the hell are you thinking?"  Are we a government of by and for the people or not?  Are we not capable of forming a more perfect union?

I believe health care should be a right in this country in this day and age.  The only reason it wasn't was likely due to health care being non existent or blood lettings and other practices we regard barbaric.  I also think that with that right should also come some responsibilities.  To penalize or privilege people based on their ability to pay is ridiculous and I believe we as a society should recognize the need to take care of one another.  It makes us a better people.


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 19 2010 at 18:58
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:46
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

In a free democratic society like we have in the US, the government is us. We are the government, we are a self-governing nation. The government is not the enemy, it is us, It is made up of people we freely elected. The laws we have were arrived at democratically as well, nobody forced anything on us, we decided our own laws and leaders.


This is true, but we are not now, nor have we ever been a true democracy. The founding fathers were against democracy because it results in a tyranny of the majority, where 51% of the people can take away the rights of the other 49%. That's why we have the constitution, to prevent certain bad things from happening.

Incidentally, your point might just as well have been directed at The T, since he is the one who started this thread to complain about the current laws that "we decided."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:42
In a free democratic society like we have in the US, the government is us. We are the government, we are a self-governing nation. The government is not the enemy, it is us, It is made up of people we freely elected. The laws we have were arrived at democratically as well, nobody forced anything on us, we decided our own laws and leaders.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:36
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Of course he doesn't care if people are sick... If they are, it's their fault - or so another one of his ilk wrote on a forum I used to visit. Yes, it was my mom's fault if she got cancer - a woman who never smoked, never drank, ate very little, and led a generally sensible life. When I read that post, I literally saw red - if I had had that guy before me, I would've strangled him with my bare hands. Calling this stance evil is an understatement.


I never said people getting sick is their own fault, nor do I hold that view. Please don't misquote me and fall into a straw man fallacy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:33
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed? 

Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands.... 


I think it's interesting that you think me selfish, when I'm not the one who wants to confiscate other people's property and distribute it as I see fit. Wink

It is a very easy thing to be generous with other people's money. I want people to be generous with their own money.
 
jajaaja... so you think this is socialism... it's really funny... so tell us, please, what is the solution for people who are older and don't have money? or children that are too young to work and they have no covering and their parents are poor or unemployed? please, tell me, if your answer is accurate... there will be no injustice anymore in the world...


Well, since you asked: It's your responsibility to earn money. No one owes it to you. If you're old and you haven't saved, then I hope you have at least been nice to people. Back in the day, before social security, most old people moved in with their kids. I think that's a good thing. Now, the family structure is falling apart and I think that is the cause of many evils in the world. Additionally, America has an astounding amount of private charity. If people were not taxed through the noses, it would be even more astounding. I think you'll find that we're a pretty compassionate people on an individual level.
The purpose of friends, family and community is to help each other through hard times. Now that the government provides everything, there's less incentive for people to get to know each other and play nice. That's why we've become so isolated and antisocial.
The main point where we disagree is that you should money is a right, and I think it has to be earned. There are obviously cases where it's impossible for someone to earn a living for reasons beyond their control, and it's very sad, but we Americans have always been great about helping these people out of the kindness of our hearts and not because Uncle Sam forces us to.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:29
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed? 

Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands.... 


I think it's interesting that you think me selfish, when I'm not the one who wants to confiscate other people's property and distribute it as I see fit. Wink

It is a very easy thing to be generous with other people's money. I want people to be generous with their own money.
 
jajaaja... so you think this is socialism... it's really funny... so tell us, please, what is the solution for people who are older and don't have money? or children that are too young to work and they have no covering and their parents are poor or unemployed? please, tell me, if your answer is accurate... there will be no injustice anymore in the world...

You (Llama73) probably love charity... where you sit on your high horse and give some crumbs to those in need... instead of making things easier for them to get up on their own. Usually, right-wingers say that too much government assistance does actually the opposite, "create a nation of lazy people", but when your free-market dream of a world owned by corporations and dog-eats-dog is a reality, there is no way to go up in the ladder by your own because it's just impossible to even enter this market when education is also extremely difficult to access and when you HAVE to keep working low-wage jobs only to get some kind of health care..... 

Yes, charity, the answer to the world problems... But it leaves more money in your pocket anyway! And that's what we want! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:29
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed? 

Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands.... 


I think it's interesting that you think me selfish, when I'm not the one who wants to confiscate other people's property and distribute it as I see fit. Wink

It is a very easy thing to be generous with other people's money. I want people to be generous with their own money.
 
jajaaja... so you think this is socialism... it's really funny... so tell us, please, what is the solution for people who are older and don't have money? or children that are too young to work and they have no covering and their parents are poor or unemployed? please, tell me, if your answer is accurate... there will be no injustice anymore in the world...

 

Oh I think you missed the point of his posts.  He doesn't care if people are sick and can't get the care they require as long as the wealthy get to keep all of "their" money.  Dead
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:21
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed? 

Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands.... 


I think it's interesting that you think me selfish, when I'm not the one who wants to confiscate other people's property and distribute it as I see fit. Wink

It is a very easy thing to be generous with other people's money. I want people to be generous with their own money.
 
jajaaja... so you think this is socialism... it's really funny... so tell us, please, what is the solution for people who are older and don't have money? or children that are too young to work and they have no covering and their parents are poor or unemployed? please, tell me, if your answer is accurate... there will be no injustice anymore in the world...
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:16
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

 
ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed? 

Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands.... 


I think it's interesting that you think me selfish, when I'm not the one who wants to confiscate other people's property and distribute it as I see fit. Wink

It is a very easy thing to be generous with other people's money. I want people to be generous with their own money.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 18:13
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Few people will put, in honest terms, what government health care really means, so here it is: It means that men with guns are going to take money by force from those that have earned it and give it to those that haven't. If they protest, they go to jail. If they resist going to jail strongly enough, they will be killed. Many people are okay with this plan and think it is fair. I don't. That's just where we disagree. I only wish people would express their views in concrete terms instead of in vague generalities like "the government should take care of poor people." If you believe that, fine, but say what you really mean. The government has no money of its own. Every dime they spend has to be forcibly taken from U.S. citizens (or borrowed, but that's a separate issue.)
 
I assume you are joking. If not you are a sorry excuse for a human being.


I guess I am a sorry excuse for a human being then... Thanks for keeping the debate civil.

Man, it's because, outside of a Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh opiate dream, I don't know where you could have read that men with guns force money off people who have earned it.... Please READ about other places. The world is much bigger than just this country and one tv channel! 


Because that's what taxes are! I don't know how anyone can not understand that. One more time: income tax is money collected by force (if necessary) from citizens based on how much they earn.

ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed? 

Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands.... 
 
You were tough Teo but it's painfully true... That's the teaching of the individualism and selfishness of the US system... if you got money, you are covered, if you don't, well, see what you can get because we need you to work (no matter you have 80 years old) and we need to take money away from you to have the doctors happy...
 
It's tough because, every country is trying to get an American system, which is good, but with all it's flaws... which are many and that can't be addapted to different countries, in which selfishness is not the main idea....
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 17:26
It's uncanny how the fiscal cost of health care in the US invariably results in a thread where many of the posters strike we outsiders as resembling the troubled offspring of King Canute and Ayn Rand.

I do admit that I have very little knowledge of how the american system functions but in Australia BOTH the public AND private health systems are government owned. The public version ensures free access to hospital treatment and subsidised access to visits to your Doctor. This is paid for by a 1.5 tax levy on all taxpayers plus an extra 1% on top for high income earners.(>AU$70k per annum)

The private system might be similar to the US as it is funded by private health insurance organisations (the largest of which is government owned) but by way of contrast, these operate under the regulations applicable to registered private health funds e.g. private medical insurance premiums attract a government rebate of circa 35% (dependant on age)

Although it's certainly far from perfect, the private and public sectors appear to work quite well together and like the UK, the former relieves much of the strain on resources from the latter. Australia is of course not immune to the tides of change (like Canute) and there is an ongoing and systematic pressure being applied to its citizens to encourage same to take out private health and employment insurance (by way of fiscal incentives e.g. tax sweeteners)

Let's face it, the State is steadily shrinking and will ultimately disappear in the west, leaving us with the prospect of having to privately fund our employment insurance and subsequent future dotage. For the sake of clarity, I am not an advocate of free handouts, but having paid income tax all my working life, there are many of us who feel with some justification that we are entitled to unemployment benefits and a state pension. (but then I might be either old fashioned or just a King Canute wannabe ?)

So to sum up, the sorry state of affairs you currently have in the US is simply where the rest of us are heading in the years to come. (if our political leaders continue to be in thrall of the sovereignty of 'market forces')
Forgive the 'sick' humour, but can't the rest of the 1st world learn from your mistakes and put into practice 'prevention is better than cure' ?


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 19 2010 at 17:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 15:53
Well played sir.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 15:46
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

 
What you said is actually quite evil. It's beyond uncivil. It is truly evil.

And then there's civilized evil:


Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2010 at 13:47
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

The answer to the initial question: the health care system long ago outgrew the institutions that were developed to support it. Unfortunately, institutions are like living things and don't like to die.
 


This is what I've been thinking about lately.  It's one thing to claim we should go single-payer, but our country has been operating in the insurance paradigm for so long that it's a highly non-trivial task to re-make the entire method by which health care is delivered.  I'm not using this to argue against going that route, merely that single-payer national health systems in Europe and elsewhere were set up long ago when there wasn't a competing massive infrastructure to tear down and remake.

Perhaps that's why we have the current reform bill that is hated by the far left and far right alike (for different reasons, of course).
 
Exactly. There are massive industries that would be destroyed by an effective health care system. Some of those are traditionally Republican interests and some Democrat. But even that is regional. Doctors are as guilty as any of the other players, but there are many.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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