Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: ghost_of_morphy wrote: Oh my.....     3.  Howe and Wakey practically invented that tight interplay between keyboards and guitar, as careful listening of Fragile and CTTE (and GFTO) should convince you.   I don't believe so, and a good example is Close to the Edge, the solo by Wakeman is an ornate, you can add it or take it and wouldn't affect the central idea of the music, while you touch a note in Banks music and you ruin the song.   Relayer and GFTO tight?...Funny,   Relayer was almost recorded, they simply changed keyboardist, yes Moraz is a genius and did an outstanding job (nobody replaces Pinder and Emerson without being outstanding), but Genesis could never had worked like that, as a fact the famous tight interplay you mention is a lot of overdubbing according to Patrck Moraz.   When we started to record "Relayer", some of the music had already been written and rehearsed by Chris, Jon, Steve and Alan. I contributed as much as I could to the overall picture of the pieces. However, it is a fact that Steve used quite a lot of tracks for his many overdubs everywhere on the album, except when there is no guitar at all, which is a rare occasion.  http://dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html     It's clear, Relayer is a Howe album mainly, where the interplay is secondary, he is the star, and it's ok, it worked for them.   Now, the desription of GFTO is clear, an album worked originally with Moraz (Who IMO is far stronger than Wakeman), they simpy replaced one keyboardsist for another and there they went, they simply changed keyboardists in two albums with recorded material and played it all, that's not exactly tight composition and interplay.   Interview with PATRICK MORAZ   We had written, together, quite a lot of the material which ended up on "Going For The One", like "Awaken", "Wondrous Stories" or even "Parallels" which were as much part my composition as anyone else in the band at that time. I also came up, during the two previous years prior to the recording of "Going For The One", with a lot of ideas and contributions to the band and its sound. The fact that I was not credited as a writer of the songs, does not mean I did not compose for the group. As a member of the band, I composed as much as I could, as much as I was "allowed" to compose by the others.   http://dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html     Wakeman and Howe abused of the solos, something Hackett and Banks hardly ever did.

progpositivity wrote:   Here's a question for everyone  Why do you think Genesis didn't put more emphasis on flashy individual virtuoso performances?  One reason clearly could be limitations of the performers involved.  But that wouldn't be the case with Phil Collins IMO - who could play monster fusion circles around some of the drum parts he put down on Genesis songs.  To some extent, was it not that their vision for the music and their personal style dictated their approach? One could even argue that Ant Phillips' less extroverted fingerprint remained on the band quite some time a while after he left.   What are your thoughts?

Different reality:

1. Yes was a band with members in their early and  mid 20's, all of them with some well known background and ready to be idols, people wouldn't expect watching Wakeman (THe star of The Strawbs) play hiding behind his keys, he had to give solos and a show, it is the least you can expect from a musician in his peak, the guy had a parallel career as solo star, he couldn't be the sitting keyboardist allowing the rest to shine over him.
2. Howe, Squire and Anderson had a long background also, they were all capable of being frontmen without any problem, remember that in FRAGILE each one was allowed top tto s solo track, on stage there was no show without Your Move..Genesis never played a non Banks, Gabriel, Rutherfoird Hackett and Collins song...If you ask who did this or that YES song, everybody knows or at least suspects because of the style, Genesis tracks autorship is a mystery except for comments and Gallo's book
3. Genesis on the other hand was a band of TEENS, they're previous experience was The Anon and Garden Wall...Two school bands, Banks could had never used capes and make flashy solos, because would had been laughable with his mommy knitted sweaters. Not even Gabriel was a frontman, that role was taken by Ant, who got sick because the panic.
4. This guys had to rely in the music exclusively, everybody could forgive a Howe mistake, because his solos were amazing, but Genesis had to be a perfectly working machine, if their interplay didn't worked, they were dead...They couldn't take risks, and of course their music was created to be played on stage exactrly asin the album, no improvisation allowed.

Different music:.

1. Yes was a Progresssive ROCK band, their music had to be self indulgent, flashy, even hard if necessary, Genesis was a Symphonic rock Band, lets be honest, their shows sucked ubtil the Foxtrot tour, they could only rely in their music and that gave them a first place in Italy and Belgium, two countries where people cared more about the music, than the show.
2. Their approach is so different, that Yes lyrics mean nothing, they just have to sound good and be spectacular sonic poetry, Genesis lyrics were thought, people stopped to listen them and understand the lyrics, sometimes Peter had to force the words and sacrifice phonetics for sense, it was so important, that Peter had to tell stories before the tracks so people would get the idea.

In other words, Yes was a proffesional Rock band with an spectacular and flashy show, Genesis was a group of kids making excellent music.

progpositivity wrote:   Here's a question for everyone  Why do you think Genesis didn't put more emphasis on flashy individual virtuoso performances?  One reason clearly could be limitations of the performers involved.  But that wouldn't be the case with Phil Collins IMO - who could play monster fusion circles around some of the drum parts he put down on Genesis songs.  To some extent, was it not that their vision for the music and their personal style dictated their approach? One could even argue that Ant Phillips' less extroverted fingerprint remained on the band quite some time a while after he left.   What are your thoughts?

I couldn't agree more with you, Ivan, and that' coming from a guy who grew up listening to Yes rather than Genesis.

American Khatru wrote: ^  Whew.  Ghosty, I've seen people take Iván lightly before.  And it always ends this way.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 18 2010 at 18:37

ghost_of_morphy wrote: Oh my.....   So many things wrong with this post I just have to mention them.   It's your partial opinion.   1.   Wakeman's replacements.  Your points are certainly valid for Brislin (although he really shouldn't count as a hired hand) and Kaye (when he even tried to live up to Wakey's rep.)  You could throw in Downes there as well.  Moraz on the other hand, is a formidable talent in his own right who left his own stamp on the group for a shining brief moment.  I'd argue that you could say the same for Khoroshev as well.   Have I said something different?   They all repleced Wakeman in his parts and did them incredibly well THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT, I heard many Yes keybopardists and clones sounding as good as Wakeman, but I never heard a Banks impersonator sounding as him.   2.  Trevor just did guitar?  Excuse me?   Good, maybe above average IMO guitar player (Trevor Rabin of course) but not in the level of Howe remotely IMO (Still he made Howe's parts accurate), and as a singer...Well, I liked his voice more than Jon's (I like any voice better than Jon's)   3.  Howe and Wakey practically invented that tight interplay between keyboards and guitar, as careful listening of Fragile and CTTE (and GFTO) should convince you.   I don't believe so, and a good example is Close to the Edge, the solo by Wakeman is an ornate, you can add it or take it and wouldn't affect the central idea of the music, while you touch a note in Banks music and you ruin the song.   Relayer and GFTO tight?...Funny,   Relayer was almost recorded, they simply changed keyboardist, yes Moraz is a genius and did an outstanding job (nobody replaces Pinder and Emerson without being outstanding), but Genesis could never had worked like that, as a fact the famous tight interplay you mention is a lot of overdubbing according to Patrck Moraz.   When we started to record "Relayer", some of the music had already been written and rehearsed by Chris, Jon, Steve and Alan. I contributed as much as I could to the overall picture of the pieces. However, it is a fact that Steve used quite a lot of tracks for his many overdubs everywhere on the album, except when there is no guitar at all, which is a rare occasion.  http://dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html     It's clear, Relayer is a Howe album mainly, where the interplay is secondary, he is the star, and it's ok, it worked for them.   Now, the desription of GFTO is clear, an album worked originally with Moraz (Who IMO is far stronger than Wakeman), they simpy replaced one keyboardsist for another and there they went, they simply changed keyboardists in two albums with recorded material and played it all, that's not exactly tight composition and interplay.   Interview with PATRICK MORAZ   We had written, together, quite a lot of the material which ended up on "Going For The One", like "Awaken", "Wondrous Stories" or even "Parallels" which were as much part my composition as anyone else in the band at that time. I also came up, during the two previous years prior to the recording of "Going For The One", with a lot of ideas and contributions to the band and its sound. The fact that I was not credited as a writer of the songs, does not mean I did not compose for the group. As a member of the band, I composed as much as I could, as much as I was "allowed" to compose by the others.   http://dmme.net/interviews/moraz.html     Wakeman and Howe abused of the solos, something Hackett and Banks hardly ever did.     4.  On to Genesis.  Yes, Hackett and Banks were the key musical members, but it wasn't their interplay.  Banks is one of those good but not great keyboardists you were talking about earlier.  He's no Wakeman.  He does have a true genius for composition however.  On the other hand, Hackett is very nearly the complete package.   In first place...Could you please explain me the relation between the supposed lack of interplay of Genesis and your idea that Banks is  bellow the standards of Wakeman? ...I used to believe that skills have no relation with the capacity of interplaying.   What? Haven't you heard the trademark sound of the guitar that sounded like a keyboard that was created directly by the interplay between Banks and Hackett,   The central sound of Genesis was based in atmospheres, something you can only get with interplay, it was easier and catchier to make loud and fast solos to shine over the rest (Hackett and Banks could had done it), but they sacrificed their individuality for the band   5.  I suppose that you can justly say that Genesis had small egos compared to Yes.  That's like saying a Rhinocerous is smaller than an Elephant, and it kind of kills your argument.   What egos?   All the people believed Hackett was nothing special until he left, he never tried to shine, RRutherford being a competent bass player, almost was hiding always as Tony Banks, they only lost some control when Peter left and Steve wanted to write, but before ATOTT, there were only two main voices in Genesis and that was Banks + Gabriel.   Have you read something about Genesis history, they hardly were known individually.   You may disagree with my opinions, it's ok, but before you say they are wrong, mention facts not your own opinions.   Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 18 2010 at 18:39

^ 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: ... all chords seem incomplete because they add new contradictory ideas making excellent bridges with the guitar and Mellotron, before they are finishing a chord, they add a bridge and start another one, they start "in crescendo" stay freezed in some moments and use what we call an inverse chord (in Spanish) around the 4:25 just to return to the initial chord at higher speed. Iván

If you meant at the lyric "... must die", I think it's the suspended chord on the 5th (though it's not precisely and technically suspended, it ends up so due to other things going on in the production / arrangement).  That whole section leading to that point is a sort of development, through instrumentation and rate, of the songs' signature chord progression.  The cycling over and again of those chords is not only apt for a narrative tale on a story with an inevitable conclusion, but also lends to the pre-human legend, the pre-Christian allegory, that is the theme of the piece.  All this and more I'm sure is to be found through analysis of these great early Genesis songs.  But they also knew how to keep the, if you will, 'visceral' coming; as one small example, what fan doesn't still get chills from the icy opening of this song?

White Mountain. 

Edited by progpositivity - April 17 2010 at 00:23

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: American Khatru wrote: ^ Iván, I could cry,  honestly.  Very sweet, they are my favorite too.    I take it you saw them back in the day?  How many times, touring for what albums?   I had a couple of problems with the Genesis tours: Not old enough, I was was about 10 when Gabrikl left Genesis. I am Peruvian, and we are not the center of musical universe exactly My first and only (until today) Genesis concert was during the Invisible Touch Tour and left after the medley. I became a Genesis fan after watching the Peruvian band Frágil playing Watcher,I Know what I like, The Knife and Can Utility & the Coastliners as openers of a Pop band back in 1976 when my musical life changed...We went to see the Pop band "You" and nearly 70% of the audience left fter Frágil ended their show, making a scandal and asking for more Prog. Only seen Gabriel Genesis on videos. Iván

Oh I see.  We're about the same age then.  And I regret I wasn't old enough to see them too.  But, of course, nothing we could do about that.