Dream Theater - Prog or not?

Camel666 wrote: ... sterile speculations...

But that's exactly what this thread is for

Dream Theater has in most of their songs at least some progressive elements. The complex time signatures and time changes alone I would consider enough to qualify them as progressive. They have well developed musical themes throughout the majority of their songs that are anything but repetitive as far as repeating of musical ideas(especially compared to the majority of non-prog genres). They even have some mildly art rock and psychadelic influences at points of certain songs( misunderstood(the end of it),disappear, octavarium). I don't think any of their music doesn't have progressive elements,at the very least, except possibly some of the ballads. Even the heavy metal sounding songs do have a great deal of complexity.

Zargus wrote: Well if its yust half metal and half prog, what is prog rock then its the same thing half rock half prog, i gues there never was any real 100% prog band then,  that anyone can have doubts about em being prog, thats yust rediculus... i culd say the same thing about marillion its yust pop with some prog elements.

Oh yes there is! Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream
No rock and all progressive!

Well if its yust half metal and half prog, what is prog rock then its the same thing half rock half prog, i gues there never was any real 100% prog band then,  that anyone can have doubts about em being prog, thats yust rediculus... i culd say the same thing about marillion its yust pop with some prog elements.

Dean wrote: What do you mean by "themed development" Karl?

First of all that I can't type. I meant to write theme development or musical progression as I've called it earlier on in this thread.
In fact what I try to say has been explained much better by Certif1ed in many of his reviews:

If I may quote from his Prog vs progressive thread.
That the music itself contains progressions, the word here being used to mean passages of music that segue into another, standing in contrast to simple constructions such as a verse/chorus based song.

Obviously there's no consensus whether that defines prog or not. But for me it's a big argument to call something "true Prog". 

It's not something that will improve or decrease my listening pleasure but well yeah, I was trying to explain why I chose option 5 here. Nothing more.



Edited by Bonnek - February 21 2010 at 10:01

Prog or not?  Who cares?  If you like the music that's all that matters.  

Edited by Slartibartfast - February 21 2010 at 09:50

Camel666 wrote: Bonnek wrote: It's not just the "riffs verses theme" development, there's also the use of keyboards, complex time signatures, non-verse-chorus song structures that make something Prog from a formal perspective. Most of all that theme development is essential to call something "true prog rock" and it's something that Metal will always have trouble with because of it's riff-based structure. In some cases, as with Opeth, the riffs span multiple bars and (usually 4) and have almost become progressive by themselves! As to Marillion, that's easy, just listen again to the Script For a Jester's Tear track, it has a clear thematic and scenic development. I am sorry, you still don't sound really convincing. You listen again to, I don't know, Misplaced Childhood, Clutching at straws, Brave, Marbles and you will find plenty of songs based on riffs. Most of them. You might also want to listen to South side of the sky or Long distance runaround, if Marillion are too neo-prog to be considered truly "progressive", and you tell me if there is no extensive use of riffs in these two. Lastly, you find me some diffrerences between, I don't know, XYZ or Red Barchetta and any DT song and I'll buy you a beer. What the hell, I'll buy you a slab.

Oh, did I say I would call Rush true Prog? 
A few songs aside, I don't think they are for the same reasons as I listed for DT.
Basically it's all in the name. The name Prog Metal says it already. Half Prog, half Metal. A few exception aside, Prog Metal will never be 100% Prog to me, but always be Metal with progressive elements.
And in case there's any remaining doubt about this, I generally prefer Prog Metal to true Prog.

And I never said Prog can't or doesn't have riffs. The addition of the thematic development makes something Prog, but besides that they can add whatever they want. Riffs, metal, even a dance beat for all I care.



Edited by Bonnek - February 21 2010 at 05:50

I think it can be noted Dream Theater is not exactly avant garde. Let's not kid ourselves folks, the aim of the DT game is not to write the most out there, crazy sh*t ever.
I hear a lot of complain about this aspect of their sound, that they aren't out there enough, not full blown intense.
But again, they never set out to be, and arguably neither did many of those symphonic prog bands that Ivan will argue are far more prog than DT.
So really, are they so prog if they are just following the same formula again and again? Some would say many symph prog or pysch prog would not qualify for prog rock.
Personally I don't listen to DT much anymore as my taste has moved onto my groove oriented metal bands that are much more riff based (Gojira, Meshuggah, Periphery, Chimaira, 1980 etc) but Images and Words and Awake are undeniably complex records in the metal realm. Hell SFAM contains enough non metal rock parts that I consider it to be prog rock as well (although I don't find SFAM to be a particularly great album anymore musically)
Personally I don't see a lot of prog in their recent albums. They sound more like random mish-mashes of riffs that don't fit coherently to me which makes me question their recent progressive qualities, which is why I stick to Awake being my favorite of theirs (and indeed, one of the best of the prog metal genre) because it sounds coherent to me

I voted I'm unsure about their progressive credentials in the end since though I believe they compose "Prog" (noun) music, I don't know how progressive (adjective) the band's music/ approach really is.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: jampa17 wrote: Well Ivan, the answer 2 to 5 has no even the half of the votes of the first one... I know we both do not believe too much in democracy (Who said 50+1 is always right and the rest is wrong?) but is evident that the majority of the active members are voting for the one with more logic... DT is both prog and prog metal... so... no matter if 3 of every 10 members think they are not... accept it Ivan... at least in this poll... you are not with the winners...   From the start I said a high percentage of members disagree with the Prog status opf DT and 36% is a huge percentage.   And remember, most of non DT fans will never visit a thread of them,   Iván