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Topic ClosedMagma´s ideology controversy. Read this!
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Paravion View Drop Down
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Points: 470 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 04:46
Here is an extract of an interview with Blasquiz and Vander done in 1977.

http://www.danbbs.dk/~m-bohn/magma/interview.htm

"Quite often you change the members of Magma, is it difficult to make them stay?

Vander: It is wrong to say that we shift our members. They leave the group. We would like to keep our musicians, but we cannot avoid the frequent changes. It has something to do with, that many of the musicians have other goals than Klaus and I. The music is the most important. In that moment a new member is being part of the group, he should be prepared to go in the service of the music. We are a group, not an assembly of single individuals. One is supposed to deliver a united effort. This is something the blacks understand. In the USA they understand this feeling. Booker T & the MG’s understood it. They accompanied Otis Redding. They were really in the service of the music. We have the same goal in Magma. Actually Magma plays black music. Black music is devotional music. It is a spiritual music. The white peoples music, is music of the intelligens. Mostly."

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Edited by Paravion - September 10 2010 at 04:51
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harmonium.ro View Drop Down
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 04:32
I follow the blog too and I didn't read anything like that. If you let yourself manipulated by anonymous comments on the internet than I can do nothing for you LOL BTW the Triton 2009 shows were recorded, you can search them up. As someone who's been there (and other concerts too) I can testify it's all bullsh*t. 
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uduwudu View Drop Down
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Points: 2601 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 04:27
Read it on the kohnkartosz blog last night. The castle thing was there as well which arose among the fee Magma chages - 10,000 Euros per night.

Not to mention the Daevid Allen (Gong) interview where he described first meeting CV when Giorgio Gomelsky was in charge of both bands. Apparently CV had a whole lot of Nazi flags etc hanging on his walls.

Fascinating stuff.
 
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harmonium.ro View Drop Down
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 04:19
Also, a BIG L.O.L. at the Vander living in a castle thing, that made my day LOL
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harmonium.ro View Drop Down
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 04:10
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:



CV undertook racist tirades at the 2009 le Triton concerts (would love to have a copy of one or those if they exist.)



LOL, where did you read that? I was there in one of the nights and nothing like that happened, and I didn't read anything about something like that about the other nights other. And in general he doesn't talk at concerts (though he did that in the 70s from what I read).
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toroddfuglesteg View Drop Down
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Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 03:55

Sorry, but I have to clear up a misunderstanding.

As I said, I am refusing to purchase any pop albums based on the music and that is my consumer choice. Refusing to buy Magma albums based on dislikes is also consumer choice.

Spreading unsubstantiated rumors about other human beings is not consumer choice. It is malicious behavior, it is a criminal offense in many countries and it is the origin of Holocaust (who was the final product of 1500 years of unsubstantiated rumors). It is also double standards where basic human rights is denied the victim of these unsubstantiated rumors. It is the fascism the victim is accused for promoting. Hence double standards. Hence the lack of respect for other human beings by the one who spread unsubstantiated rumors and his/her cries about "you know nothing about fascism" as a mean of getting the attention away from the facts in this matter. And I am not referring to ExittheLemming.  

You simply does not go around and spread unsubstantiated rumors about other human  beings (and animals) in a forum like ProgArchives. What you are doing in this thread is comparable with this. That is the fact of the matter. 

But feel free to boycott French cheese, Magma albums and Levis jeans as much as you want for whatever reason as long as you don't spread unsubstantiated rumors in public and you therefore act within the moral standards and laws of democratic civilized countries. 

End of the matter.   



Edited by toroddfuglesteg - September 10 2010 at 04:10
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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 03:38
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

40footwolf.

Being selective with the truth and spreading untrue rumors about other human beings is not only morally repugnant, it is also in a moral sense, fascism. It is also illegal and may land you in the dock in most civilized countries.

Why does this sound uncannily like a potted description of practically every election campaign waged in every multi party democracy in the last 100 years ? You've also just described the tabloid sector of the fourth estate. All morally repugnant scumbags with a crass and venal agenda to be sure but fascists?, No. Slander and defamation can land you in the dock irrespective of what political beliefs you hold. BTW Denial of the Holocaust is punishable by law in Germany.

I repeat myself from above: Acting on rumors and then distributing them is fascism in the sense that you are not giving the accused any level of doubts, reason and human rights. You are repeating what the fascists did to the Jews leading up to the WW2. And you have the nerve to repeat what they did in the name of anti-fascism. That is double standards.

Not buying a Magma album based on your objection to one of the band member's (alleged) political beliefs is the same as planned genocide ? No it ain't and you're a lot smarter than that. It's called consumer choice.

Fascism is both a moral thing, like you do, and a type of running a country, like Mussolini, Franco and Hitler did. It is still the same moral thing though.

In any totalitarian regime the idea of pluralism is rejected and if Magma do have a covert fascist agenda (unproven) it is certainly ironic that it is our tolerant democratic climate that protects and allows them to articulate their beliefs unhindered by persecution. (So I agree with you up to a point hereWink)

Do whatever you want to do as long as you don't disrespect and persecute others based on unsubstantiated rumors like you are doing here. Please don't buy any Magma albums and leave them in the shelves for those of us who respect basic human rights.  

And as you say: Fascists should be boycotted. Hence, I am now moving onto some less odious tasks in life. Smile




Edited by ExittheLemming - September 10 2010 at 04:26
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 03:33
No, I know what Fascism means.

Just had to make my obligatory smart ass comment and just make sure you know, even if correct, well....I would get a 0 if I cited wiki in a college paper Wink
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Points: 651 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 03:28
I made sure to check the sources. They're legit. 

But if you want I can actually quote a historian on the defintion of Fascism. 

["Fascism is] a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti-conservative nationalism. As such it is an ideology deeply bound up with modernization and modernity, one which has assumed a considerable variety of external forms to adapt itself to the particular historical and national context in which it appears, and has drawn a wide range of cultural and intellectual currents, both left and right, anti-modern and pro-modern, to articulate itself as a body of ideas, slogans, and doctrine. In the inter-war period it manifested itself primarily in the form of an elite-led "armed party" which attempted, mostly unsuccessfully, to generate a populist mass movement through a liturgical style of politics and a programme of radical policies which promised to overcome a threat posed by international socialism, to end the degeneration affecting the nation under liberalism, and to bring about a radical renewal of its social, political and cultural life as part of what was widely imagined to be the new era being inaugurated in Western civilization. The core mobilizing myth of fascism which conditions its ideology, propaganda, style of politics and actions is the vision of the nation's imminent rebirth from decadence."

Believe Wiki or believe the words of a qualified historian. He's wrong either way. 

I'm going to sleep. I've spent enough time on this foolishness as it is. 
Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 03:24
Wait, you were being satirical right?
Saying not to talk about what you don't know, but then cite Wiki?

I mean clever lil jab, but if you were honest...er well do you see the sticky wicket?
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 03:23
Or Vander just doesn't care enough to do so
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40footwolf View Drop Down
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Points: 651 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 03:14
Okay, cool, thanks for showing me you don't know what you're talking about. 

Jumping to Wikipedia, here is what Fascism is commonly understood to be:

"Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus they reject individualism. Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.

They advocate the creation of a single-party state Fascists reject and resist the autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated. They consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and a threat to the nation. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. They identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality."

If anything, going by your own nonsensical definition of fascism, YOU are being fascist towards ME by decrying the fact that I'm not falling in with your collectivist mentality and making my own choice about what to buy for my own reasons. Does that sound stupid? That's because it is, because your definition of fascism is completely off base. 

I'll thank you not to call me a fascist, and I'll continue to thank you to not talk about things that you know nothing about. Fascism was a very specific political movement, with very specific beliefs, which I do not hold. If you were at all educated in these terms you would understand that. 

Do you see what I just did there? I denied that I was a fascist. Very easy to do. Why hasn't Vander done it yet? 

But by all means, please keep screaming "unsubstantiated rumors!" until it completely drowns out the part of your brain that's able to reason. It seems like it already has. 
Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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Points: 2601 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 03:11
Speaking of unsubstantiated rumour I've just recalled the illustrations in P.F.M's Passpartu CD cover. Now given that this was the 1970s and terrorism (Italian Red Brigade, Baader meinhof etc) was huge then as it still is though with different lots I always wondered but found no info on whether P.F.M. did or did not support such activity .

Regrettably my  Italian is only of the phrase book variety - I don't know what the album is about. I have no wish to hold judgment on PFM (whom I like alot) but would appreciate someone shedding light on what Passpartu is about.

What is the difference between substantiated rumour and unsubstantiated rumour? How does one get to the former fromt he latter.

P.S. My understanding of fascism is an imposition of certain belief codes on others. Fascists however, will accept anyone who converts. Nazis on the other hand have less scruple and insist on holocausts and ethnic "cleansing." They have no tolerance, fascists have some.

If public artists are going to state political beliefs or present an art form based on this then a right of reply is requested. Clarification if you will. As sopposed to blind acceptance. This is serious stuff (I was unaware of the Matching Mole) but to me the P.F.M. booklet (anyone else have a copy of this sunny and delightful and underrated album?
If there's nothing in it, fine. If it's artists reflecting their environments fine.

The thing is that most of my knowledge of European art rock music began with Web data. Europe has an unbelievably convoluted and tortous political history (the last 1000 years) which undoubtedly surfaces in artisitc expression albeit the more contemporary influences being more prevalent in their work.

 I do not want to make judgments but I do rerally want to know what it's all about.
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toroddfuglesteg View Drop Down
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Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 02:59

40footwolf.

Being selective with the truth and spreading untrue rumors about other human beings is not only morally repugnant, it is also in a moral sense, fascism. It is also illegal and may land you in the dock in most civilized countries. 

I repeat myself from above: Acting on rumors and then distributing them is fascism in the sense that you are not giving the accused any level of doubts, reason and human rights. You are repeating what the fascists did to the Jews leading up to the WW2. And you have the nerve to repeat what they did in the name of anti-fascism. That is double standards. 

Fascism is both a moral thing, like you do, and a type of running a country, like Mussolini, Franco and Hitler did. It is still the same moral thing though.

Do whatever you want to do as long as you don't disrespect and persecute others based on unsubstantiated rumors like you are doing here. Please don't buy any Magma albums and leave them in the shelves for those of us who respect basic human rights.  

And as you say: Fascists should be boycotted. Hence, I am now moving onto some less odious tasks in life. Smile




Edited by toroddfuglesteg - September 10 2010 at 03:04
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 02:47
This would've been a clearer way to sum up my point:

The music is good. I can still enjoy it.
We do that with LOTS of things (not only music) enjoying while saying "yeah I hate them though"
What about a band who's communist? No objections? They just have far out beliefs? Why are they not equated with Mao or Stalin? A fascist is worse then a communist? Is it because of Hitler?

IMHO there's no proof of this, and again if so...the music is good.
Sorry but if you enjoy something, you enjoy it.
Christian Vander can believe all Brian's from NJ should be killed.
Hope to god he doesn't find me, but Magma still put out some great music!


Edited by JJLehto - September 10 2010 at 02:50
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40footwolf View Drop Down
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Points: 651 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 02:47
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

If you still insist that Vander is fascist based on unsubstantiated rumors, you are yourself holding fascist beliefs. 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Wait. 

Wait. 

...

...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You don't actually know what Fascism means, do you? 
Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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40footwolf View Drop Down
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Points: 651 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 02:46
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

Bollocks, 40footwolf. Free market is something totally different again.

Do you have any hard evidence linking Vander to fascism ? Nope. 

Acting on rumors and then distributing them is fascism in the sense that you are not giving the accused any level of doubts, reason and human rights. There is evidence which seriously doubts that Vander has anything to do with fascism. But you are totally disregarding them in your discrediting of another human being based on rumors. 

Ever heard about Holocaust, 40footwolf ? What do you think you are doing when you go public with unsubstantiated rumors ?  

Feel free not to buy any Magma albums. That is your personal preference. I don't buy any pop albums either. But I am honest enough to admit that I don't like pop, in fact can't stand pop music based on the music itself. I think that is a respectable view.   


There isn't "hard" evidence, but there is evidence. You're simply choosing to ignore it. 

Also, yes, of course I've heard of the Holocaust. I don't understand your point. Are you saying that me not choosing to buy Magma albums because their frontman most likely holds Fascist beliefs is equivalent to the propaganda that lead to the Holocaust? Because that's such a laughably over the top comparison that it doesn't even deserve a respectable answer. 
Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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toroddfuglesteg View Drop Down
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Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 02:44
If you still insist that Vander is fascist based on unsubstantiated rumors, you are yourself holding fascist beliefs. 
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40footwolf View Drop Down
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Points: 651 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 02:41
Originally posted by James James wrote:

I know that.

Bear in mind there are other people in Magma though who are trying to make a living.

Not that I am going to change your opinion and neither am I trying to.  I'm just saying that you're boycotting a band on unsubstantiated rumours.

I guess it's too bad for them that they've decided to work with a guy who seems to pretty clearly hold Fascist beliefs. They're adults, they can make their own decisions and live with them. I bear them no ill will. 
Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 10 2010 at 02:41
Wow, missed this somehow.

No way to really know

All I really can think to say is, even if this is true (as disgusting as it may be) the music is good.
Well IMO LOL

In one of my English classes we watched a nazi propaganda film (blanking on name sorry) as part of a film section. She pointed out what it was for is obviously wrong, but the film itself was very well done.

Sorry if it makes no sense but it was so in my head!


Edited by JJLehto - September 10 2010 at 02:41
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