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Certif1ed 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
 Posted: July 09 2009 at 02:28 |
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^I'm not expecting any nice reviews by anybody of anything between the black album (didn't they nick that idea from Spinal Tap?) and Death Magnetic - but both of those are good albums, even if the former isn't proggy and the latter is only proggy in style.
The albums in between are pretty awful - but not as nasty as "Love Beach" by ELP
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 23:49 |
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Just to show the collabs I really have put the Metallica thing behind me I shall write some reviews!
But don't expect any nice ones from the Black Album on  |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 23:19 |
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 Iván
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 23:13 |
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I just come from a 3-day trip and I find this fantastic change in developments on this thread... I have a lot to read tomorrow...
 I'm so dead and tired right now... 
Just a word: I think that the problem regarding Metallica's addition has been solved, people have said what they thought but in the end we all understand nobody wanted to offend nobody. I don't have any problems with nobody. Whatever caused the short-lived problems, poor choice of words, overreaction, the need to voice an opinion, whatever, we're still here and I'm happy we were able to do that and come back to a point where a great real discussion is having place.
Now to sleep...
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65306 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 21:48 |
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good post, I would say however that progressive metal, at least as it was emerging in the San Francisco scene, was not prog elements pasted on metal - or a fusion of the two - as much as an urge to progress heavy metal itself. The similarities between prog rock and prog metal lie in this creative urge, and less between a musical lineage between the two [though as Certified correctly points out metal was in many ways a product of the progression of rock].. the British and European contributions to the progressing of metal - Priest, Scorpions, Maiden, Ozzy's first two, Angel Witch, etc. - may be more influenced by the prog artists but that is not necessarily clear either, as we see what appears to be independent progression in the material of, say, Uli Roth or Michael Schenker stemming from their own classical backgrounds rather than influence from ELP or Jethro Tull. If anything we hear influence in Schenker's playing from fellow rocker Tony Iommi more than any prog bands. Edited by Atavachron - July 08 2009 at 21:51 |
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Conor Fynes
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 11 2009 Location: Vancouver, CA Status: Offline Points: 3196 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 21:31 |
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Let me quote Mike Portnoy of Dream Theater:
"Metallica are the world's first true progressive metal band. People just don't know it yet."
I'm not a big fan of them, but they definately belong on this site. They have DEFINATELY influenced prog metal.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 21:25 |
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I am not an old timer but since I do like the old prog more, I can safely say that based on the one album of theirs, I heard, I did not like them at all and after two albums, my impression of TFK isn't much better. I'd rather listen to stuff like Dream Theater even if it doesn't really follow the template of the old masters. AND...you are not spelling it out in as many words, but aren't you basically saying that prog metal is prog elements pasted on metal? Nothing wrong with that, that's what at least I have always understood prog metal to be. I don't like much prog metal but I don't really have any problems with the word prog prefixed to it because I can see that the word prog is used here in an entirely different context from the way it was in relation to 70s prog. It might seem bizarre that both kinds of music are lumped under the same umbrella term but then I guess you can also conceivably call The Who and Europe both rock bands and they don't sound a whole lot like each other, not where I am hearing anyway. The problem is really with both groups - fans of the old prog and fans of prog metal - expecting one to emulate the approach of the other. There's no need. And yes, it means the genre is not very scientifically defined but that seems to be the case with a lot of rock-based genres. The new (or is it nu) breed of metalheads can't see eye to eye with each other on what is metal, for instance and neither is able to satisfactorily define what metal really is.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 14:55 |
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^^ I know that you don't think that I'm much of an expert ... in the past I used to write angry responses to such clandestine attacks, but I won't bother anymore.
Well, have it your way ... the only valid Prog Metal bands are Metallica and Spastik Inc, and that's that.  I'm kind of surprised though that you would have something positive to say about Spock's Beard ... since they've always been heavily influenced by Genesis and Gentle Giant. It's also not very consistent with your theory from a couple of posts ago, where you said that typical fans of 70s prog would not enjoy modern prog because it's lacking the element of surprise and ingenuity ... Spock's Beard are typically one of the bands those old timers can't stand at all. Edited by Mr ProgFreak - July 09 2009 at 01:13 |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10669 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 14:50 |
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The only album I've heard in recent years that sounds like Progressive Rock (early 70s Yes, Crimson etc) and is at the same time progressive is Shining's Grindstone.
This has been kicked around on this site a million times, but after the mid-70s it is really hard for a band to play Progressive Rock (what many on this site call 'prog') and still be progressive. I think most of the time we have to think in terms of both (Progressive Rock and progressive rock) and try to abstractly juggle the two while deciding if a band fits PA. I think a lot of us have a feel for where those two merge (and don't merge), but it is probably hard to get on paper. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 14:15 |
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My understanding of Prog goes up to roughly the mid 1980s.
After that, I'm baffled really, as I simply cannot accept most of what's called Prog now as being fundamentally the same music. I cannot imagine where the "experts" get their information from - it's just not the same (note that I am not saying it is worse or better or anything like that). There are flashes, in bands like Spock's Beard, and interesting innovations in the music of bands like Spastic Ink, and amazing musicians like John Zorn - but these are rare.These latter have the gift of being able to come up with something musically surprising - even if sporadically, in the case of Neil Morse... I've asked many times for a bit of assistance from the mid 1980s to the present day, but no-one seems to have any usable suggestions. Or do they...?  Anyone up for writing an essay entitled "Prog - The vacuum years, 1986-1996" or similar? And another one "Prog - the reboot, 1996 - present"?
Heh - if it was hard to convince the Prog Metallers that Metallica are related, it's near impossible to convice Classic Proggers - even though the music does bear a close resemblance to some of it. As I see it, Metallica are the bridge between the two genres - they have much in common with both. Not surprisingly, then, they are widely rejected by both who cannot or will not hear it.
Edited by Certif1ed - July 08 2009 at 14:17 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 13:11 |
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^^ nice post, Certif1ed! We'll probably never reach an agreement, but I respect your opinion. You have to admit though that your position regarding Prog is really not compatible with that of most experts of the genre. If you now think "where does he get that idea from" ... have a look at this list:
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 08:07 |
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This thread takes some digesting.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 07:39 |
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Nor do I - but it's a very common aspect of the music that defined what "Prog" is in the first place.
The list is endless, but defining album include;
King Crimson - everything on ITCOTCK - possibly Poseidon too, but I haven't analysed that yet.
Genesis - everything on Trespass (and Nursery Cryme).
Gentle Giant - say no more.
ELP - ELP
Standard song form is notable in its absence from these albums
Try also Gong's Radio Gnome trilogy, Hatfield and the North, Can, much Krautrock, Magma, Zappa - the list is almost endless. I do not make these things up to suit myself!
Underlines my point that people get the two confused, don't you think?
I could get very technical about music if I wanted - and people sometimes accuse me of over-complicating or over-analysing. In this case, I was over-simplifying to illustrate the difference, not trying to claim that these are the only ways of breaking it down. I thought this was obvious.
You mean AC/DC are prog, in your view???
At a fundamental level they are - it doesn't matter if people agree or not.
If people can't hear that, then that's probably down to their lack of musical appreciation.
Well the Prog experts here and at Wikipedia seem to think it has a fair bit of relevance.
I don't claim to have found the perfect way of defining it - but you have to admit, it's a lot better than any of the other definitions that currently exist.
Write a better one instead of complaining about mine!
While mine has weaknesses, I don't believe you've truly hit on any yet.
No - as soon as you pull it to pieces and look at the individual elements, there's not much there - just like much pop music.
The point here is that you can take almost any Prog band you like from the 1970s, and pull the music apart and find surprises, which is one of the joys of analysis.
With Dream Theater, you will find unusual time signature riffs and modal scales or arpeggios played very quickly and precisely - but it seems that this is the end, ie the reason is to use these techniques.
In 1970s Prog, bands had to resort to these sort of techniques because that was the only way to express the music - this is a very fine line and I can see the arguments looking, but I'm not going to get into this one; To my ears (ie, in my opinion), this is how it is.
Actually...
This is not true. What evidence do you have of this?
I arrived at my conclusions by listening to the music and discussing it with people who like it - and most of my conclusions have been agreed with, and mesh well with every available definition of Prog on the Internet, even if it's not a perfect match.
Let's face it, most definitions that exist are very vague, romanticised interpretations full of extreme generailsations - and often provably inaccurate about almost any given Prog band.
On the contrary, I reinforce them - I am not attempting to "undo" anything, but to get closer to a decent and reasonably accurate definition.
On second thoughts, you don't even mention which definitions these are that I'm "undoing". Please quote these definitions so that I can see how I am undoing them - and please indicate the ways in which I am "undoing them".
Well, there probably are cultural aspects too - I'm not interested enough in sociology to consider these though. If you'd care to write something up about this, I'll gladly discuss it and add something to Wikipedia.
"Movements" in music rarely actually exist - artists decide they want to play in a certain style (most commonly a fashionable one) or with a particular approach.
For example, while the "Classical" movement is commonly cited to have been some kind of movement between given dates, sandwiched between the "Baroque" and "Romantic" movements, there was never any kind of co-ordinated mass shift to these styles - hence the dates commonly reported in history books are almost always different to each other - in other words, wrong. Most decent musical history books own up to this, so it's not controversial.
Approach before style is rare - the late 1960s was about the only time that approach became more widespread than general style in popular music (of course, "Classical" or, more accurately, non-popular / formally educated music went through this phase in the early part of the 20th Century), hence popular music almost suddenly stopped being reasonably clear-cut into jazz, soul, rock and roll, country and western, ballad, merseybeat or whatever, and went into complete meltdown.
In the late 1960s, bands were playing Progressive Rock, Heavy Metal, Electro-pop, funk, reggae, punk, Trip-hop, Psychedelic - and much of it fell into more than one of those categories!
There was an identifiable "Progressive Music" scene, as we have documented reports of it, and the music that came out of that scene was generally held to be "intelligent" and somehow above ordinary pop music.
From this scene, both Heavy Metal and Progressive Rock arose.
One could argue that therefore, they are the same thing - except that Heavy Metal went into the direction of repetitive riffing and regular (though extended) songs, and Progressive Rock went in whatever direction it chose, as long as it was not standard pop / rock music.
You could safely argue that Prog Rock music brought new and interesting things to the party, with a focus on creating new music while this was not really the requirement of Heavy Metal, unless it was one louder, a bit faster or a bit more flash - but essentially the same old heavy metal beloved of the fans.
Really, all Prog Rock did was to bring together lots of diverse ideas that had already been thrown into the cauldron by the Progressive Music "scene" (I know, "scene" is just as bad as "movement", but there were identifiable "scenes" in London particularly, at the Marquee and UFO clubs, and Ladbroke Grove, among other places).
So when Metallica came along in 1982 (I know, 1981 really - but '82 is the first recorded release), bringing together diverse elements of heavy metal - and turning it up to 11 at the same time, we knew we were listening to something altogether different to the heavy metal we were used to. Check out the very first Metal Massacre LP and compare all the music on there. Do Metallica stand out like a sore thumb or what?
In 1984, they did it again - their covers of Blitzkrieg's "Blitzkrieg" and especially Diamond Head's "Am I Evil" showed the world again that Metallica were something very different - check out the first Speed Kills compilation LP on Music For Nations (1985). Again, "Fight Fire With Fire" shows a band very much ahead of the pack - both Megadeth and Slayer are represented on this album, as are Exodus (Kirk's old band), Celtic Frost, Possessed and Venom, kick-starters of the whole thrash thing. Movement, if you really want.
The music of "FFWF" alone is so outstandingly advanced, precise and innovative over all their contemporaries that it cannot be wondered at that, with hindsight, we can easily consider Metallica a Progressive Metal band in both a musical and a very literal sense. They weren't the only ones, they were not the best musicians - but neither Pink Floyd nor King Crimson were alone in their radical approaches, which translated to unique sounds and styles - and few would argue that Floyd are the greatest musicians ever - but at what they did, they were most assuredly the best.
Hmm.
Just felt like writing that because it felt good to write - it kinda flowed out, like a piece of music does - I haven't even proof-read it for errors, so there are probably loads.
It probably belongs somewhere else, but if anyone actually reads it, I'd be interested in the comments.
 Edited by Certif1ed - July 08 2009 at 07:40 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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akin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2004 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 976 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 05:46 |
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And don't ever forget that Prog is a musical genre, part of a movement, so it includes cultural aspects as well.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 03:58 |
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I don't mind you talking about or exploring musical form at all ... I just don't think that it's the governing criterium for defining what's prog and what isn't.
It may be more more difficult than you think ... you simply went back to a binary division (truly complex vs complicated), when clearly it is not as simple as that.
Sure. But the word "wide" is relative ... IMO your definition is much too theoretical. When typical people (that is: without the capability to analyse form like you can) listen to Dream Theater, I'm sure they think "complex". Play someone Pull Me Under and then Let There Be Rock ... do you *really* believe that they would say that both songs are equally complex? I welcome your efforts of analyzing the music the way you do ... but the result - while interesting - has IMO little relevance for a general definition of "Prog".
Well, I think that this may also have a lot to do with the general style of the music ... many simply don't like metal, or LaBrie's voice. In a way I guess it's also similar to what ELP faced in the 70s ... some people don't like "flashy" playing.
It "crumbles" only by your standard.
Like I said: Defining "Prog" is not about one or two single criteria. Porcupine Tree are Prog ... that's a given. It's not up for debate. What you are doing - with Metallica, or any other band - is to narrow the definition artificially, so that it doesn't include the bands that, in your opinion, aren't truly progressive. Still nothing wrong with that, but I don't think that you'll manage to undo definitions that have been used for decades. But you're always welcome to submit some ratings/tags at PF ... participate in defining what's prog and what isn't. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 08 2009 at 02:05 |
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^It's not a debate any more, it's just a discussion. If people want to continue it, then that's fine, isn't it? Why should we stop discussing it any more than any other band in this archive?
Better to keep all the discussion in one single thread than have loads of new ones about the same subject I think.
Anyway, it's not all about Metallica these days...
Not really - it is an important aspect, but one that gets overlooked because it's the least understood.
Hence it seems to you that I'm "obsessesd" with it, because I'm one of the very few who actually talks about it - and I enjoy exploring musical form, so why not.
Possibly more - but there is a difference between truly complex, where the various bits and pieces are different yet interlock (which is a hard compositional process), and complicated, where simple stuff is decorated with technical twiddly bits, which might be hard to play, but do not make the music intrinsically complex.
It's not really a hard distinction to make.
Actually, the form of Dream Theater's songs tends not to get that much more complex than the average AC/DC song, once you take away the "twiddly bits". Essentially, they're all standard songs (Intro/Verse/Chorus etc) with extended intros, instrumental bridges and codas. Even AC/DC wrote songs like this - "Let There Be Rock" is probably the best example.
How do you know this?
I think "Prog" encompasses a wide variety of music!
It doesn't really exclude Dream Theater - it's an inclusive, not an exclusive definition.
However, Dream Theater are quite clearly at the weaker end of the scale, when you get down to it and analyse the music - which is why you don't see many rave reviews of them from fans of 1970s Prog.
Besides, few people review from a technical analysis point of view - that is a gap in the market that I like to fill because I enjoy it and no other reason. It's not my intention to "bash" Dream Theater because I don't like them, it's my intention to rip the music apart and analyse it. If it crumbles, then that's not my doing.
I dislike ELP's music probably as much as I dislike Dream Theater's, yet, when I analyse ELP's music, it's chock full of interesting compositional things - even though the technical proficiency in performance is not as high as DTs.
Most people review purely from their own tastes - and that's fine - but when analytical people like me come along and ask why something is so proggy when it's blatantly not, the bottom line is usually that it simply isn't. It just sounds like it could be. Best example, Porcupine Tree. No offense to their fans, but this is not complex music by any stretch of anyone's imagination.
Anyway.
Stop changing the subject - this thread is about Metallica, not my personal definition of Prog or Dream Theater.  Edited by Certif1ed - July 08 2009 at 02:07 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 20:03 |
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Yeah, I didn't realize it was that old.
So this is pretty much now a debate for debate's sake. Jeez people let it go, I have.....and it didn't take months |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10669 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 19:44 |
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Yeah, it's been dormant for a while, like a stubborn campfire it flares up again occaisonally. I'm glad Tony put a lock on the Hendrix thread.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 19:38 |
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Yikes, just realized this thread was created in October??
Edited by JJLehto - July 07 2009 at 19:39 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 07 2009 at 18:45 |
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Uh Oh. Now we have three intelligent posters for this thread - Transgressor, Certif1ed, and Progfreak.
T, we gotta shape up & suit up and show 'em how we can match them. I haven't seen this much thought put into a thread in a while  (once you get past some of the crap) |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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The T wrote: