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Tony R 
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 Posted: May 25 2007 at 08:13 |
Are there any zeuhl-related bands that arent on the archives or being considered for inclusion?
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Rocktopus
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 08:05 |
 Melomaniac wrote:
We should have a PROTO PROG-METAL CATEGORY, since prog metal is as valid a genre as any prog sub-genre... If we had that category, I'd be willing to include Metallica in it, and I'd transfer Iron Maiden from prog related to proto prog metal... What do you all think ? |
No! That would of course be relevant for a PM site. but not here. I want an own Zeuhl-related category!! Or proto-zeuhl, since zeuhl is as valid a prog genre as any sub-genre.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 07:52 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ by "real" prog metal bands I mean all the bands which are commonly referred to as "prog metal" ... of course that includes Dream Theater. I know that most of these bands are not prog metal by your definition. |
No - they are not Prog Rock by my (or most people's) definition 
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
But that's mainly due to your strange definition of the term ...
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It's not so strange really - it's only based on simple observations based on how things really are, rather than strange labels which appear to have a tenuous grip on reality.
Prog Metal isn't the worst - at least there is a connection 
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
for example, Images & Words is much, much more complex and demanding both to the listeners and musicians than Ride the Lightning. It constantly changes style, tempo, sound, mood, instruments etc. etc. ...
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I don't think so - I'm familiar with both - and stylistically, IAW remains more or less the same throughout - which is not a feature of "real" Prog
RTL changes style, tempo, sound and mood - although you've got me on the instruments... 
I don't hear any additional complexity in the music in IAW - only in the execution techniques in the riffs themselves, the solos and the fills.
RTL (the title track) has a more complex instrumental section than much of IAW - but I think here (ie, this thread) is not the place for a detailled comparative discussion.
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
if all that bores you or doesn't qualify as "prog", then you might have to live with the fact that in that regard you are part of a small minority. |
We're all a part of a small minority in our own ways 
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
BTW: I think this another case of "Prog" vs. "progressive" ...
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Depends on which level... I can certainly hear elements of Prog in RTL (and even KEA) - style, tempo, sound and mood changes, etc.
I still don't understand your DT -> Opeth comparison and the "real prog metal" statement though... 
Edited by Certif1ed - May 25 2007 at 08:02
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Rocktopus
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 07:07 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
TheProgtologist wrote:
Without addressing all the points that need addressing in this thread I really need to point on thing out....
You guys do realize that just because a band is in Prog Related does NOT MEAN THEY ARE PROG.
When will you guys get that through your heads?
Read the definition of the category,I get sick of saying that. |
Honestly...most people don't.Not when they are arguing about how "proggy" they are.
I think most people realize that.
Still most of us don't want Metallica here. Even if its just in the (unpopular) prog-related category. They are as I see it related to progmetal, not directly to prog.
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Why can't a band directly related to prog metal be in PR?????
That bias angers me to no end,prog metal is a valid PROG sub-genre. |
Then we gotta have: Canterbury related/jazzfusionrelated (Sun Ra, Coltrane, Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, Eric Dolphy etc) Protoprogrelated (Kinks, Hollies, Bee Gees...) progrelatedrelated (Coldplay, Keane, Green Day...) Progressive electronic related (Orb, Orbital, Prodigy, Snap) Its differnt being related to a subgenre of prog, than being directly related to prog.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 06:44 |
^ by "real" prog metal bands I mean all the bands which are commonly referred to as "prog metal" ... of course that includes Dream Theater. I know that most of these bands are not prog metal by your definition. But that's mainly due to your strange definition of the term ... for example, Images & Words is much, much more complex and demanding both to the listeners and musicians than Ride the Lightning. It constantly changes style, tempo, sound, mood, instruments etc. etc. ... if all that bores you or doesn't qualify as "prog", then you might have to live with the fact that in that regard you are part of a small minority. BTW: I think this another case of "Prog" vs. "progressive" ...
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 06:17 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
...but for a band which had its progressive phase before the "real" prog metal bands released their landmark albums, the association simply is more difficult to realize.
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To me that read like you were saying DT aren't real PM - and now you're saying you meant the opposite, I can breathe a sigh of relief...
But I'm confused...
Your earlier post states: "for a band which had its progressive phase before the "real" prog metal bands released their landmark albums"
You're clearly making a distinction - but I don't get it 
I don't really understand what you're saying about the term being occupied by DT and their ilk - the metal music press (at least, the rags I read) used it in conjunction with Queensryche, Rush and Diamond Head in the 1980s - it wasn't invented for DT & co.
I also don't hear what so progressive about I&W over RTL, except, maybe, the addition of keyboards, and the polished execution and production.
I don't want to get into the obvious arguments, I simply want to understand the criteria and how they differ from my own 
Edited by Certif1ed - May 25 2007 at 06:18
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 05:52 |
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^ Prog Metal = Dream Theater ... I thought I had said that and not the opposite. If you could only name one single band as an example for Prog Metal then it would have to be Dream Theater, it's as simple as that.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 05:42 |
OK - I had no idea that DT weren't considered "real" prog metal - I thought they epitomised it, since they brought it to popularity.
The comparisons can easily be drawn with Opeth too
Opeth use thrash techniques combined with lights and shades and elaborate instrumental sections contained in songs as the basis of their music... just like Metallica... 
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 05:33 |
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^ "To my ears, MOP and AJFA are pure Prog Metal albums -
and I have strong feelings about RTL as well, particularly the title
track, "Call of Cthulu", "Fade to Black" and the epic "Creeping Death"."
I understand what you're saying and I sympathize, but the term Prog Metal is already "occupied" by bands which sound like Dream Theater ... that's Prog Metal in a literal sense. Of course you can use it as a moniker for all bands which are both related to Prog and Metal, but since the style of Dream Theater is so closely associated with the term "Prog Metal", there will always be misunderstandings. Of course the same problem exists for newer bands like Opeth and Tool, but for a band which had its progressive phase before the "real" prog metal bands released their landmark albums, the association simply is more difficult to realize.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: May 25 2007 at 03:58 |
micky wrote:
if you want to argue the case musically... then it is either prog-metal or it doesn't belong here. Like every other group there we evaluate on the site.
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Indeed - and it is my belief that some of Metallica's albums are Prog Metal - not just related, but the real deal.
micky wrote:
if it is PR... that ..as I've tried to explain is a different case...for the simple fact that so many bands have progressive elements in their music..you have to put stipulations on it. PR status is not about the music itself. .it's about the importance of the group in prog terms... their impact on prog if you will. This of course assumes that these addtions aren't primarily to generate web hits That is much harder to argue, than meerly showing that Metallica varied compositionally from the standard metal of the day. Sounds like you made a case for them being in Prog Metal.. not Prog Related.
That they had prog elements in their music.. we know...we've heard it... however since this appears to be a PR question.. That is a tricky one for Metal groups.. did they just impact metal as a whole.. or just the Prog-Metal side. One should be here.. the other shouldn't.
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I'm also opposed to arguing for the sake of PR, as I made clear earlier.
To me, it's all about the music - but you know that
micky wrote:
you mention...
'The difference is that very few metal bands in the early 1980s constructed songs using this technique - it's all intro, V,C,V,C,SOLO,V,C,C,C...'
that is true... I notice that Dream Theater goes to great lenghs to cite YES as an influence for example. Instead of attributing the complex constructions of prog metal over standard Metal to Metallica.. isn't it fair to assume that Yes or Rush, or other classic prog bands that might have influenced PM, could have been that influence instead. You can extrapolate that Metallica is the main influence on the complex nature of prog metal quite easily just by saying they did..... however many of those bands grew up ..not listening to Metallica Mark... but Yes, Rush, and god... even Genesis.
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But who did Yes grow up listening to?
Genesis?, Rush?
DT may cite Yes as an influence - but I don't think that in itself is a criteria for a band to be considered prog - in fact, I might argue the case that to be influenced by a Prog band is not Prog.
I'll stick with gut feelings here, instead of elaborate musical arguments:
I don't hear Yes in DT's "Images and Words", or even "Metropolis" - I hear Metallica.
There's other stuff too - but early Yes is a ringer for a cross between the Beatles and Buffalo Springfield (who aren't here yet...).
Early Rush is famously Zep-like - and Zep have only recently made it in.
Don't confuse the "heavy" with the "metal" in Metallica - sure, they were a metal band when they started out, and the game plan was to become the ultimate metal band - which they arguably succeeded in doing beyond anyone's wildest dreams.
If you were a fan of metal in the early 1980s, you were in a minority that was frowned upon for listening to music that was perceived as brutish and simple.
Metallica responded by making music that was more brutal than anything before them (with the possible exception of Motorhead and Blue Cheer), darker than anything before them (with the possible exception of Black Sabbath and Necronomicon), and faster than anything before them - with no exceptions.
They responded to the jeers of "it's only thrash" that came out of the press by producing music that was more sophisticated than music that was being touted as Progressive Metal, and they followed that up with an album that had the metal world on it's knees in almost worshipful disbelief - Master of Puppets had a 2-page review in Kerrang!, with the reviewer almost gasping the lines out.
There is nothing on "Images and Words" (gut feeling alone - I won't try to prove it, but it'd be interesting to see if there's general agreement) that isn't on Master of Puppets.
"IAW" is more polished, in terms of execution and production - and I am emphatically not saying that it's just a clone, as the music is generally very different.
However, strains of "Welcome Home (Sanitarium)" do float out of the music in a familiar fashion, and the construction of, say, Orion, is evident in places - and the riffing technique, lights and shades are pure Metallica.
To my ears, MOP and AJFA are pure Prog Metal albums - and I have strong feelings about RTL as well, particularly the title track, "Call of Cthulu", "Fade to Black" and the epic "Creeping Death".
Make the comparisons yourself - I'm not, for a change, saying this is how it is and here is the proof - I'm saying that this is my instinctive, gut feeling - my opinion
Edited by Certif1ed - May 25 2007 at 03:59
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Barla
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 19:37 |
Tony R wrote:
I'll be interested to read more views about which category we should put Metallica into, no doubt others will join the discussion (and enliven it) over the next hours. |
Overall, I think Metallica is not a Progressive Metal band, so that category do not fit to them. On the other hand, it's so obvious that Metallica has influenced not only Prog Metal as a whole, but also Metal overall, without a doubt. And, as I stated before, they have evident progressive elements on their music, and even made a technical prog metal album (...And Justice For All) and a total prog metal album (Master Of Puppets). Is it enough? So my opinion is to add them to the Prog Related category.
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1800iareyay
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 19:06 |
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Hard to say whether they should be posted as Related or as full Prog-Metal. I belive that if Metallica is added as Prog-Metal then Iron Maiden should be shifted there as well. Metallica certainly has the credentials: never sticking to one formula (usually the chief criticism levelled at the band), odd-time signatures, complex riffs, and Cliff Burton's incorporation of music theory into a genre that was lacking real structure.
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Tony R
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 19:03 |
I'll be interested to read more views about which category we should put Metallica into, no doubt others will join the discussion (and enliven it ) over the next hours.
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micky
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 19:02 |
just wanted to be the first to ask that
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tony R
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 19:01 |
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micky
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 19:01 |
Tony R wrote:
What if we put them in Prog-Metal with a carefully-worded BIO? |
that is the best solution I think Tony.... IF they are to be included that is
can't resist asking though... what about Iron Maiden...more prog than Metallica.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Tony R
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 18:52 |
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What if we put them in Prog-Metal with a carefully-worded BIO?
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stonebeard
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 18:51 |
Tony R wrote:
indeed.
I think the case for Metallica's inclusion has been well made but WHERE do we put them? |
I think that, as was mentioned earlier, if we put proto-prog-metal or something, it will just open up a can of worms or divide prog metal from prog rock even further. I'd say prog metal or prog related, preferably prog related by my perspective.
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Tony R
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 18:49 |
indeed.
I think the case for Metallica's inclusion has been well made but WHERE do we put them?
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Dean
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Posted: May 24 2007 at 18:49 |
If there is a catagory called Proto-Prog-Metal then who does end up in it?
How many other bands paved the way for Prog-Metal who aren't actually Prog-Metal (either at the moment or at some point in their careers)?
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What?
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Metallica?
