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Peter 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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 Posted: March 02 2006 at 16:17 |
Short answer? 
Because we expect them to, and because moral standards are declining, IMO.
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 16:12 |
 Blacksword wrote:
I'm aware that anti war feeling in the US is rife at the moment. You
have lost over 2000 servicemen in Iraq, and I'm sure that
must have some baring on that. Anti war feeling has always been
high here, but that seems to be more to do with the percieved
illegality of the conflict.
Do you think, when Bush finishes this term, the Republicans will get in again?? |
There were plenty of people here (myself included) who were against the
Iraq war the moment it became clear that the "WMD immanent threat"
premise was a smokescreen.
I don't think the Republicans will retain the executive office come
2008. The pendulum seems to be firmly swinging in the opposite
direction, as it tends to do here. Our (Massachussetts) "beloved"
Mormon, anti-gay rights Governor, Mitt Romney appears to be gearing up
for a 2008 Presidential bid. Frankly, I hope he does, because there's
no way the midwest and the south will vote for a "city slicker" like
him. 
So, I predict a Democrat in office come '08. But please, anyone but Hillary Clinton! 
Then the pendulum will start swinging the opposite direction, and
everyone will be aggravated by the "wishy-washy" Democrats. Especially
since it's more than likely the Republicans will retain control of the
Legislative branch. Then nothing will get done! Isn't democracy
wonderful? 
That's why I'm a card-carrying Libertarian.
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Pure Brilliance:
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 15:59 |
I agree with that!
I'm aware that anti war feeling in the US is rife at the moment. You have lost over 2000 servicemen in Iraq, and I'm sure that must have some baring on that. Anti war feeling has always been high here, but that seems to be more to do with the percieved illegality of the conflict.
Do you think, when Bush finishes this term, the Republicans will get in again??
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 15:43 |
Blacksword wrote:
Syzygy wrote:
The question isn't so much why do we let them lie to us, but why are we surprised when it happens? |
I think we Europeans are naturally more sceptical of those in power, than Americans. Thats my perception anyway. Any thoughts on that from our US contributors? Bearing in mind that was not intended as a dig at America..
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No misconstued dig at America taken. Not that I haven't made my fair share of them myself
I do think that's a bit of a misconception, however. There's plenty of
regions in the U.S. in whch a majority of the public has a healthy
skepticism of government. I firmly believe it's directly proportional
to education. Those that are naturally curious about how things got
"the way they are", pursue education, whether formalized or
self-administered. They also tend to listen to Prog.
The more informed you are, the more you can recognize when you're being manipulated.
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Pure Brilliance:
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 15:10 |
Syzygy wrote:
The question isn't so much why do we let them lie to us, but why are we surprised when it happens? |
I think we Europeans are naturally more sceptical of those in power, than Americans. Thats my perception anyway. Any thoughts on that from our US contributors? Bearing in mind that was not intended as a dig at America..
The only surprise for me, is as you suggest Chris, when others are surprised by it! 
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 15:04 |
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The question isn't so much why do we let them lie to us, but why are we surprised when it happens?
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 14:27 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
How many pessimistic people!!
And how many commonplaces!!
Ahhh, do is this the destiny of western countries?
C'mon
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I see Mr Burlesconi has been bribing the husband of one of our senior ministers. How naughty of him..
Still, I guess crooks of a feather flock together.
There is a lot of pessimism, you're right of course, but in terms of our leaders what is there specifically to be optimistic about? World peace? No. The environment? No. Civil liberties? No, at least not here. Help me out!...
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 14:12 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
How many pessimistic people!! |
Unfortunately, when I look at history, I find little reason to be
optimistic, at least for the short term. There are a few blips of hope
here and there. The Renaissance is a good example. Another
example: the _real_ message of Jesus Christ (if he existed) was a
glimmer of hope for humankind.
But we all know how THAT story ended.
All that said, I do have some hopes for the future. I think the human
race has some very hard choices ahead of it... let's hope we make more
right decisions than wrong ones!
And hey, if not, maybe it's time the dolphins or the roaches got a shot at things.
Wow, could I have possibly digressed more off-topic?
Edited by Empathy
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Pure Brilliance:
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 13:56 |
How many pessimistic people!!
And how many commonplaces!!
Ahhh, do is this the destiny of western countries?
C'mon
Edited by Andrea Cortese
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 13:53 |
When was this pic taken then?
To think that the former scourge of PA looked like such a nice boy!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 13:26 |
^ I wouldn't dare..
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 13:20 |
Did someone just mention the name Jeb?
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 13:16 |
Democracy wins out over dictatorship for one reason alone. If you dont like the crooks who are in government you can vote another bunch in.
Unless of course the job of government is handed to an individual by a court in a state where a relation happens to be the governour. But hey I'm probably just being cynical. That would never happen....
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 13:12 |
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At the bottom of everything is the lie: george Bush was elected. Many don`t believe he ever was. Hanging chads. deceit.
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Pablo_P
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 20 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 1028
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 13:05 |
I saw the news about Bush two minutes ago in TV news... 
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Pablo P.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 13:02 |
Yet Empathy is correct when he says that people only voice outrage when they are directly affected.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 12:59 |
Tony R wrote:
Empathy wrote:
The truth is the blame for the
tragedy of errors that was Katrina lies on many people. Ray Nagin
absolutely dropped the ball evacuating the city, for one. Everyone's
angry that the Army Corps of Engineers didn't build a levee system that
could withstand a hurricane of that intensity. I don't recall anyone
pointing fingers that the World Trade Center wasn't rebuilt to
withstand an impact from a more modern airplane than a 707.
There is blame to be shared, for sure. I think a better question is are we actually learning
anything from the experience? Finger-pointing is the easy part. These
days, it seems to be rare that we actually move past that phase.
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I'm not on about blaming people for the tragedy,I am concerned with the fact that we have definite proof that he has lied. |
I
agree. Disaster happens. George bush is a disaster. Many in America
want to see his fall. It amazes me he can still hold his head high. I
really enjoyed seeing him slammed at the Coretta King funeral.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 12:58 |
Power corrupts..
We let our leaders lie to us for two reasons:
1) Enough people have faith in their leaders to vote them into power and give them a mandate to lie further. For some the idea of their president lying is so unpallatable that they live in denial of any wrong doing on his part.
2) WTF are we going to do about it anyway??
Basically I believe the true agendas of our leaders are not even known to us. Some weeks ago evidence was leaked to Channel 4 news in the UK that Bush and Blair had already agreed a date for war with Iraq, regardless of any UN decision. Blair had previously said that no such agreement had taken place. He lied to us. That was a BIG lie, and since that news report there has been no mention of it.
I used to be amember of the Labour party. Now I will not vote as I do not support organised crime. Thats what our leaders are. Criminals.
IMO..
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 12:54 |
Tony R wrote:
Empathy wrote:
The truth is the blame for the
tragedy of errors that was Katrina lies on many people. Ray Nagin
absolutely dropped the ball evacuating the city, for one. Everyone's
angry that the Army Corps of Engineers didn't build a levee system that
could withstand a hurricane of that intensity. I don't recall anyone
pointing fingers that the World Trade Center wasn't rebuilt to
withstand an impact from a more modern airplane than a 707.
There is blame to be shared, for sure. I think a better question is are we actually learning
anything from the experience? Finger-pointing is the easy part. These
days, it seems to be rare that we actually move past that phase.
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I'm not on about blaming people for the tragedy,I am concerned with the fact that we have definite proof that he has lied. |
Ah, right. Sorry to digress. I suppose Dubya's lies are old hat to me
at this point. What's infuriating to me isn't so much the lies
themselves but the arrogance and brazen defiance when confronted with
them. It's like he no longer feels he even has to make an effort to
disguise his agenda anymore.
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Pure Brilliance:
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21193
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Posted: March 02 2006 at 12:50 |
Politicians lie. Get used to it.
To quote KC: "That is a fact - of life."
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Why do we let our leaders lie to us?
