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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65298
Posted: December 14 2016 at 16:09
Trolls huh. Ugly and nasty huh.
Wake up and smell the coffee. You started a thread with nothing other than a sample of music and a proclamation and then get pissed off when some here have something to say about it. That's what this friggin' forum is for, that's what it's about. Music discussion, and yes, argument, debate, maybe even just conversation. You think one disagrees just to aggravate you? Guess again.
But you didn't want a real conversation. No, you wanted to make some statement, leave it at that, and then get pissy when the very statement you made gets responses. I imagine you thought the posts would along the lines of "Yeah man, great, 'The Original Proto Electronic Prog', right on, keep it up!". It don't work that way: this is a premier music appreciation site that draws listeners and experts from around the globe of all ages and backgrounds, making it among the most comprehensive depositories of music analysis and appreciation in the world. This could have been a constructive (and probably needed) talk about origins of electronic progressive music. But you wouldn't have that. No, the moment someone had a different position, you began with the attacks.
And another thing: Most of us here have learned to not accept what some book, site, source, magazine, interview, person, or any other source has to say about anything. It's called independent judgement, and it comes after a lifetime of careful listening, not reading some page on Wiki-bloody-Pedia.
Yeah, I'm a troll. A prog rock troll who enjoys talking about things I love and understand. We're all trolls according to you, so get used to it.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
Posted: December 14 2016 at 13:44
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Some people have very bad taste and no no sense of what is good music...............
Some people can't catch the irony in their own words.
Some people have more well developed musical tastes than others who are satisfied with plan Jane music
And some people have no idea of what other members of this site listen to. If you feel that you have more developed musical tastes than a majority of the this site's members, then you are sadly mistaken. Perhaps it's time you closed your ears to your self obsessed music listening and take a serious look at what other PA members listen to. Btw, your "I know and appreciate better music than thou" stance is a real turnoff.
I tend to differentiate between appreciating something and actually liking it. I can appreciate Stockhausen and his music without liking it, and I can make the same observation of Roine Stolt and Miles Davis. This is why I tend to avoid making negative judgemental criticism of any piece of music - however, even if I like something I'll often only say so if it adds something to the conversation or is in response to a specific question.
This is also why I'll never state a preference between vinyl and CD - that I buy both formats regularly is all the information anyone really needs to know. Same is true it I own more than one album by an artist as I'm not quite dumb enough (yet) to buy a second album if I didn't like the first (though it is perfectly possible that I subsequently disliked the second).
Whether I like or dislike this particular piece of music is somewhat immaterial if we are simply talking about whether it is an example of proto-electronic prog or not... that it is an example of 1950s experimental music is beyond doubt and its use of electronics is important to the development electronic music in general even though it wasn't entirely composed using electronic sounds nor was it the first or most ground-breaking. Many other pieces from the that era are just as important.
To be regarded as Proto Electronic Prog then we have to view that in context of what Progressive Electronic music is and how that differs from all other forms of Electronic Music (including that composed by Cage, Riley, Ligetti and a whole raft of others such as Wendy Carlos and the all folks who worked at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop), and while this may not at first appear obvious, the key element there is the very close association with Progressive Rock, and here I would stress the Rock element of that, if it ain't Rock then it cannot be Prog Rock. Similar things happen in Jazz Rock/Fusion (some people forget the Fusion bit must include some Rock element to be regarded as Progressive Rock) and Avant-Prog (Avant Garde without the Rock element cannot seriously be considered as fitting Avant-Prog, it's just Avant Garde). For Poème électronique to be some kind of precursor to the Progressive Electronic subgenre then there has to be a rock association, as opposed to an experimental or electronic(ish) association otherwise Stravinsky and Bach would be regarded as Proto Prog (which they aren't and never can be).
So to be on this site everyone must listen to the same music - that seems to be what your are saying, don't think that is what this site is about.
My comment is a response to the previous comments, which I believe are in rather poor taste, I started this thread and expressed an opinion on Varese's work Poeme Electronic (Varese was the major influence to Zappa's work if you didn't know) and then get all the trolls coming out of the wood work stating that this is mot music, yeah so of course I going to react and I can tell you I'm significantly older the 30 - as alluded to by another poster. I thought this was a relatively free thinking site but this thread has shown un ugly nasty side to PA which I find repulsive.
"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits!
Joined: August 08 2016
Location: Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
Posted: December 14 2016 at 08:07
zravkapt wrote:
I find it weird and interesting that some (presumably under 30) try to make the earliest example of electronic music=proto-PE. Also, the earliest example of metal=proto-PM. Archaeologists just discovered a 3000 year old lute in Greece....BAM! proto-Prog Folk.
If you want to look at the origins of what is considered "Progressive Electronic" on PA, you look at developments in rock music of the 1960s, not academic avant-garde stuff from earlier. First, you have the Pink Floyd-inspired space rock which included sound effects and trippy guitar/organ sounds. That was a huge influence on early Krautrock and Berlin School. Then, you had people like Carlos, etc. who were non-rock musicians working with synths; once people like the members of Tangerine Dream (who started out as a rock band) starting using synths, they used them in a different way. At first simple, cheaper synths were used for spacey sound effects; later Moogs were used for repetitive and rhythmic sequences. In the meantime, all those synth solos people like Emerson and Wakeman were doing had nothing to do with PE.
PE (as defined by PA) also has nothing to do with any experimental electronic music post-1970s (unless it is directly influenced by the '70s stuff).
I'm not sure I agree, much of Krautrock and PE seem to stem pretty directly from the academic experimentalists. For instance, I'd consider this track to precede a lot of spacey electronic acts, especially Cluster:
The first two Kraftwerk albums clearly drew from Stockhausen, among other artists. The opening of KlingKlang resembles some of the abrupt musique concrete of the 60's, and naturally Kraftwerk would be hugely influential electronic artists
Joined: October 12 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6446
Posted: December 14 2016 at 07:04
I find it weird and interesting that some (presumably under 30) try to make the earliest example of electronic music=proto-PE. Also, the earliest example of metal=proto-PM. Archaeologists just discovered a 3000 year old lute in Greece....BAM! proto-Prog Folk.
If you want to look at the origins of what is considered "Progressive Electronic" on PA, you look at developments in rock music of the 1960s, not academic avant-garde stuff from earlier. First, you have the Pink Floyd-inspired space rock which included sound effects and trippy guitar/organ sounds. That was a huge influence on early Krautrock and Berlin School. Then, you had people like Carlos, etc. who were non-rock musicians working with synths; once people like the members of Tangerine Dream (who started out as a rock band) starting using synths, they used them in a different way. At first simple, cheaper synths were used for spacey sound effects; later Moogs were used for repetitive and rhythmic sequences. In the meantime, all those synth solos people like Emerson and Wakeman were doing had nothing to do with PE.
PE (as defined by PA) also has nothing to do with any experimental electronic music post-1970s (unless it is directly influenced by the '70s stuff).
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: December 14 2016 at 06:00
SteveG wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Some people have very bad taste and no no sense of what is good music...............
Some people can't catch the irony in their own words.
Some people have more well developed musical tastes than others who are satisfied with plan Jane music
And some people have no idea of what other members of this site listen to. If you feel that you have more developed musical tastes than a majority of the this site's members, then you are sadly mistaken. Perhaps it's time you closed your ears to your self obsessed music listening and take a serious look at what other PA members listen to. Btw, your "I know and appreciate better music than thou" stance is a real turnoff.
I tend to differentiate between appreciating something and actually liking it. I can appreciate Stockhausen and his music without liking it, and I can make the same observation of Roine Stolt and Miles Davis. This is why I tend to avoid making negative judgemental criticism of any piece of music - however, even if I like something I'll often only say so if it adds something to the conversation or is in response to a specific question.
This is also why I'll never state a preference between vinyl and CD - that I buy both formats regularly is all the information anyone really needs to know. Same is true it I own more than one album by an artist as I'm not quite dumb enough (yet) to buy a second album if I didn't like the first (though it is perfectly possible that I subsequently disliked the second).
Whether I like or dislike this particular piece of music is somewhat immaterial if we are simply talking about whether it is an example of proto-electronic prog or not... that it is an example of 1950s experimental music is beyond doubt and its use of electronics is important to the development electronic music in general even though it wasn't entirely composed using electronic sounds nor was it the first or most ground-breaking. Many other pieces from the that era are just as important.
To be regarded as Proto Electronic Prog then we have to view that in context of what Progressive Electronic music is and how that differs from all other forms of Electronic Music (including that composed by Cage, Riley, Ligetti and a whole raft of others such as Wendy Carlos and the all folks who worked at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop), and while this may not at first appear obvious, the key element there is the very close association with Progressive Rock, and here I would stress the Rock element of that, if it ain't Rock then it cannot be Prog Rock. Similar things happen in Jazz Rock/Fusion (some people forget the Fusion bit must include some Rock element to be regarded as Progressive Rock) and Avant-Prog (Avant Garde without the Rock element cannot seriously be considered as fitting Avant-Prog, it's just Avant Garde). For Poème électronique to be some kind of precursor to the Progressive Electronic subgenre then there has to be a rock association, as opposed to an experimental or electronic(ish) association otherwise Stravinsky and Bach would be regarded as Proto Prog (which they aren't and never can be).
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
Posted: December 14 2016 at 04:13
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Some people have very bad taste and no no sense of what is good music...............
Some people can't catch the irony in their own words.
Some people have more well developed musical tastes than others who are satisfied with plan Jane music
And some people have no idea of what other members of this site listen to. If you feel that you have more developed musical tastes than a majority of the this site's members, then you are sadly mistaken. Perhaps it's time you closed your ears to your self obsessed music listening and take a serious look at what other PA members listen to. Btw, your "I know and appreciate better music than thou" stance is a real turnoff.
Hmm...Wiki is no expert on all things but they consider it a piece of electronic music...
Yup - and Wikipedia, the fount of all knowledge, also lists Edgard Varèse's Poème électronique under "Examples of notable electroacoustic works" on their Electroacoustic Music page I linked earlier.
This kind of experimental music comes in various flavours that can be crudely summed-up thusly:
Musique concrète - found sounds
Tape music - found sounds recorded on tape
Electroacoustic music - found sounds recorded on tape and manipulated
Electromechanical music - synthetic sounds created mechanically
Electronic music - synthetic sounds created electronically
Poème électronique is composed of found and synthetic sounds recorded on tape and manipulated, which makes it a kinda crossover so the Wikipedia author can call it Electronic music because some of the tones are generated using standard Philips test oscillators but that 'overlooks' the manipulated tape recordings of all the found sounds that feature on the piece. For me, to be called "Electronic Music" the generated sounds have to be wholly synthetic.
dr wu23 wrote:
......but to my poor ears and sense of music only a few parts in it qualify as 'music' and most doesn't.
Music is many things just as Art is many things, but what separates it from random noise is contrived intent. Varèse's composed this piece by assembling sounds with deliberate intent so therefore it is music. You may not find it musical in the same way I don't find Jackson Pollack's paintings to be artistic, but both are Art.
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
Posted: December 13 2016 at 14:19
Some people have very bad taste and no no sense of what is good music...............
I've seen all good people turn their heads each day So satisfied I'm on my way I've seen all good people turn their heads each day So satisfied I'm on my way
Don't surround yourself with yourself Move on back two squares Send an instant karma to me
Initial it with loving care (Don't surround yourself)
"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits!
Hmm...Wiki is no expert on all things but they consider it a piece of electronic music.........but to my poor ears and sense of music only a few parts in it qualify as 'music' and most doesn't.
Yeah, Doc. I listened to this after smoking my "water pipe" and it still sounded bad.
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Hmm...Wiki is no expert on all things but they consider it a piece of electronic music.........but to my poor ears and sense of music only a few parts in it qualify as 'music' and most doesn't.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Most of the sounds are not made using electronic means (oscillators), only some are and those are predominately in the second section. Pure electronic music was not unknown in the 1950s but this isn't an example of it.
Yes, Poème électronique is very beautiful in its fresh experimental approach. I've just been revisiting Stockhausen's early electronic works yesterday and, although a bit different, I feel they have that similar vibe to Poème électronique.
Categories strain, crack and sometimes break, under their burden - step out of the space provided.
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
Posted: December 13 2016 at 08:10
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
SteveG wrote:
The question of what is Proto Electronic Prog is as subjective as the often asked, but never completely answered, question of "What is Prog?" Both Dean and David (Atavactron) are entitled to their views regarding this proto genre, as are you. Especially in regard to opinions concerning electronic sounds vs. music.
Every one is entitled to their view and as OP for this thread that is what I am also stating but to state something is not music a definitely a personal choice and not quantitative assessment of fact.
Listening to someone strum an out of tune guitar is also a personal choice as well as a quantitate assessment of fact. It may technically be music, but it's still lousy music.
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The Original Proto Electronic Prog
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Dean wrote:
The pavillion's architecture is also remarkable 