Mahavishnu Orchestra

I think the most plausible answer has been given by those who have put it down to the lack of vocals.  Even with KC, the more instrument-based albums like LTIA are not what made them so renowned.  Rather, it's the, yes, symphonic ITCOTCK with Lake's standout vocals.  KC, Yes, ELP, Genesis, PF, JT all have standout vocals in at least some of their albums, whether or not in a good way.  Let me further modify that.  Distinct vocals AND lyrics in English *cue micky's favourite RPI rant* .  I think Magma has a very formidable legacy too and their musicianship is outstanding.  But singing in an imaginary language just won't do when it comes to popularity.  What moshkito calls the top 10 mentality.  But it can't be helped, really, because rock music essentially is a predominantly American and British based genre with, duh, English lyrics.  Sure there are amazing bands from other countries singing in their native language but with most of it being English, most of the fans are going to be conversant in English at the very least, even if it is not their first language.  

Edited by rogerthat - January 14 2015 at 08:29

dr prog wrote: I don't bother with Fusion these days. Prog is way better. Just click below and you will agree

Eh?

Great track. Mahavishnu, Floyd or Crimson couldn't produce these kind of melodies

^ Eh, prog's had better.

^ Listen to Spectrum yet, Skull?

Lear'sFool wrote: The only reason that they being fusion is a short answer to your question is the fact that fusion isn't symph, which is enough for some of the really close minded progheads to shun them. ...

Which is the main reason why I would like to see the rules cleaned up and updated now that we have 50 years worth of music to go with.

Sadly, we do not have the intelect to be able to put it all together and come up with something solid that makes sense, and I do not believe that enough folks that like the top ten in progressive music (at least PA), are folks that have a solid appreciation for real music all over the world, and you should have at least a sizeable portion of that.

GuruGuru never had keyboards either, and neither did Incredible String Band, and they were far more progressive in their area than anyone here is willing or capable of listening to it. Because it ain't prog and it ain't listed on PA's top list!

So, not seeing Mahavishnu, is not a surprise ... in fact it should be expected. The folks here, with their list, have locked themselves up to 3 groups and the rest is crap!

WTF are you even asking, right?       

What I often do is pick an artist and listen to their entire catalog from 1rst album to last.
It's really fascinating to do this.  It's not something that you could do back in the era the albums were created.

KC had a very interesting development from one album to the next with a lot of surprises along the way.  Same
with Mahavishnu.

jayem wrote: TODDLER wrote:  Robert Fripp was interested in John McLaughlin's writing. This became more evident when King Crimson were touring in 73'/74'. Some of the Mahavishnu style of writing turned up on Larks Tongues In Aspic, Starless and Bible Black ..and Red. Mainly the style of a chord voice or a riff played in harmony by Robert Fripp and David Cross.   In both KC and MO we find distorted guitar + violin and odd rythmics, but the very patterns that compose their lines are far from being the same. I doubt that Fripp would borrow anything from MacLaughlin. Here's why I doubt it the more...   It's quite impressionable playing the pieces off the 3 Crimson titles and the early Mahavishnu. I often hear some of the same approach in chord structure and the voicings. For example, the guitar intro to Birds Of Fire consists of some of the same concepts Fripp has applied. I can definitely hear Fripp playing the acoustic guitar improve in "Thousand Island Park" and "Hope" has a definite Crimson feel. It's very mixed and difficult to pinpoint. It may be that McLaughlin accidently wrote a thing or 2 that was reminiscent of Bella Bartok and there lies a musical connection between King Crimson and Mahavishnu, but nevertheless...if you play an instrument..you can see clearly that there is a connection somehow because of what you are playing by Fripp that is reminding you of the note patterns you played by McLaughlin. Perhaps Fripp masked any influence and it comes across not intended.

TODDLER wrote:  Robert Fripp was interested in John McLaughlin's writing. This became more evident when King Crimson were touring in 73'/74'. Some of the Mahavishnu style of writing turned up on Larks Tongues In Aspic, Starless and Bible Black ..and Red. Mainly the style of a chord voice or a riff played in harmony by Robert Fripp and David Cross.

TODDLER wrote: Skullhead wrote: I have wondered for years why MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA is not considered one of the giants of prog or spoken in the same light as YES, ELP, TULL, CRIMSON, GENTLE GIANT, PINK FLOYD. I know the quick answer is going to be "it's jazz fusion".  But isn't King Crimson the prog version of jazz or filled with jazz?   This was a different situation because King Crimson won over the Americans with poetry and themes like In The Court Of The Crimson King, Pictures Of A City, 21st Century Schizoid Man, Strange album covers, Greg Lake's voice and the subtle mixture of acoustic guitar and Folk music blended through "Cadence and Cascade" etc. There was SO much emphasis placed upon that more so than King Crimson jamming on a swing beat with schizoid guitar and Jazz sax. Most people didn't think about their Jazz aspect in 1970. A majority of people looked upon them as an "Art Rock" band with the covers to boot...just like Pink Floyd and if they did sound jazzy, shame on them. Mahavishnu, it certainly rocks.  It's totally cutting edge for the time.  Nearly every song is in an odd time signature.  Johnny Mac played a double neck guitar, so it even looks prog.  They toured extensively and sold a lot of albums.  We have extreme virtuosity on every chair, and beautiful passages of classical music influence woven into many of the pieces.  Beautiful melodic melodies that are more than memorable. They were a huge influence on certain individuals who were vital to the Prog Rock world. Robert Fripp was interested in John McLaughlin's writing. This became more evident when King Crimson were touring in 73'/74'. Some of the Mahavishnu style of writing turned up on Larks Tongues In Aspic, Starless and Bible Black ..and Red. Mainly the style of a chord voice or a riff played in harmony by Robert Fripp and David Cross. Some Prog bands relied more on the melodic side to Mahavishnu's music. For example , pieces like "Sanctuary" and "Hope" come to mind. There are several sections existing within long pieces written by Dave Stewart from the first 2 National Health albums that haunt me as they have the definite Mahavishnu style. Happy The Man wrote several pieces for their debut and the Crafty Hands album that are like a pleasant visit from Mahavishnu. One particular track is "Carousel". Brand X often get carried away with emulation and there are times when I've heard it on recordings of Goblin.  One particular emulation that is extreme is heard on Guru, Guru's Dance Of The Flames with tracks like "The Day Of Timestop" and "God's Endless Love For Men". I recall sitting around with Jazz/fusion players the first time we all heard "Sound Chaser" by Yes. We just looked at each other , questioning what was going on. Really? Yes sounding like Mahavishnu? I believe that the style of writing on Inner Mounting Flame and Birds Of Fire entered it's way into Progressive Rock in the early to mid 70's and was a fragment of Progressive Rock writing. You could easily take the ideas behind Mahavishnu's music and adapt it to Progressive Rock pieces by utilizing it for sections. I've even ran across some of the old John McLaughlin chord progressions in the music of Univers Zero. He was highly influential to people as a writer. He sometimes wrote sections of music that were not exactly fitting stylistically to Jazz. Some of his chord progressions were based off Asian music and contained a spiritual tone. Evidently much of his writing can be attributed to the composition of Progressive Rock in the 70's. It was his original ideas that appealed to Progressive Rock bands.  Birds of Fire, Inner Mounting Flame, Visions of the Emerald Beyond, Apocalypse.   Assuming you are familiar with ALL of these works... What is your take?

Very insightful post.  Thanks for taking the time to digest it.
I feel like those who write off Mahavishnu as not relevant to prog are making a mistake... or not doing their homework.

Skullhead wrote: I have wondered for years why MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA is not considered one of the giants of prog or spoken in the same light as YES, ELP, TULL, CRIMSON, GENTLE GIANT, PINK FLOYD. I know the quick answer is going to be "it's jazz fusion".  But isn't King Crimson the prog version of jazz or filled with jazz?   This was a different situation because King Crimson won over the Americans with poetry and themes like In The Court Of The Crimson King, Pictures Of A City, 21st Century Schizoid Man, Strange album covers, Greg Lake's voice and the subtle mixture of acoustic guitar and Folk music blended through "Cadence and Cascade" etc. There was SO much emphasis placed upon that more so than King Crimson jamming on a swing beat with schizoid guitar and Jazz sax. Most people didn't think about their Jazz aspect in 1970. A majority of people looked upon them as an "Art Rock" band with the covers to boot...just like Pink Floyd and if they did sound jazzy, shame on them. Mahavishnu, it certainly rocks.  It's totally cutting edge for the time.  Nearly every song is in an odd time signature.  Johnny Mac played a double neck guitar, so it even looks prog.  They toured extensively and sold a lot of albums.  We have extreme virtuosity on every chair, and beautiful passages of classical music influence woven into many of the pieces.  Beautiful melodic melodies that are more than memorable. They were a huge influence on certain individuals who were vital to the Prog Rock world. Robert Fripp was interested in John McLaughlin's writing. This became more evident when King Crimson were touring in 73'/74'. Some of the Mahavishnu style of writing turned up on Larks Tongues In Aspic, Starless and Bible Black ..and Red. Mainly the style of a chord voice or a riff played in harmony by Robert Fripp and David Cross. Some Prog bands relied more on the melodic side to Mahavishnu's music. For example , pieces like "Sanctuary" and "Hope" come to mind. There are several sections existing within long pieces written by Dave Stewart from the first 2 National Health albums that haunt me as they have the definite Mahavishnu style. Happy The Man wrote several pieces for their debut and the Crafty Hands album that are like a pleasant visit from Mahavishnu. One particular track is "Carousel". Brand X often get carried away with emulation and there are times when I've heard it on recordings of Goblin.  One particular emulation that is extreme is heard on Guru, Guru's Dance Of The Flames with tracks like "The Day Of Timestop" and "God's Endless Love For Men". I recall sitting around with Jazz/fusion players the first time we all heard "Sound Chaser" by Yes. We just looked at each other , questioning what was going on. Really? Yes sounding like Mahavishnu? I believe that the style of writing on Inner Mounting Flame and Birds Of Fire entered it's way into Progressive Rock in the early to mid 70's and was a fragment of Progressive Rock writing. You could easily take the ideas behind Mahavishnu's music and adapt it to Progressive Rock pieces by utilizing it for sections. I've even ran across some of the old John McLaughlin chord progressions in the music of Univers Zero. He was highly influential to people as a writer. He sometimes wrote sections of music that were not exactly fitting stylistically to Jazz. Some of his chord progressions were based off Asian music and contained a spiritual tone. Evidently much of his writing can be attributed to the composition of Progressive Rock in the 70's. It was his original ideas that appealed to Progressive Rock bands.  Birds of Fire, Inner Mounting Flame, Visions of the Emerald Beyond, Apocalypse.   Assuming you are familiar with ALL of these works... What is your take?