For my Libertarian friends

StyLaZyn wrote: 3. If immigrants come here illegally, they place a burden on society yet do not have to do anything to shoulder that burden (pay federal, state, and municipal taxes, have jury duty, etc). they pay sales taxes. And they work for longer hours for miserable wages so that somebody can get richer and fatter. Those under-the-table wages do not pay into the social security they will later collect when they become a citizen. Not to mention, they will get the same amount of SS pay for working fewer years than someone who has worked their entire life and paid into it.  I consider it stealing.

Epignosis wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: 3. If immigrants come here illegally, they place a burden on society yet do not have to do anything to shoulder that burden (pay federal, state, and municipal taxes, have jury duty, etc). they pay sales taxes. And they work for longer hours for miserable wages so that somebody can get richer and fatter. Those under-the-table wages do not pay into the social security they will later collect when they become a citizen. Not to mention, they will get the same amount of SS pay for working fewer years than someone who has worked their entire life and paid into it.  I consider it stealing. I consider abortion murder.  No one listens to me.

3. If immigrants come here illegally, they place a burden on society yet do not have to do anything to shoulder that burden (pay federal, state, and municipal taxes, have jury duty, etc). they pay sales taxes. And they work for longer hours for miserable wages so that somebody can get richer and fatter.

Edited by The T - July 17 2009 at 12:11

JJLehto wrote:   It's true. People can come up with ALL the justification they need....but it really is bigotry. I mean let's take the most current example...mexicans. The whole "taking jobs" thing is unfair because as we've said it's the employers fault....no one can fault the immigrant, if I had to support my family I would do the same. So I could UNDERSTAND a gripe if you lost a job to an immigrant, but outside that....it is xenophobia. Don't give me the "degradation of our culture" bullsh*t. What is our "culture" I know our culture is one of immigrants... I also love the "we need to wall off the border for security reasons! Stop terrorists from entering!" Even though the terrorists entered through Canada.... And I won't say who, you can look it up, but earlier I saw the comment "the founding fathers didn't expect us to be over run by immigrants" OVER RUN BY IMMIGRANTS!? We are all immigrants, unless you are a full blooded native americans. So yea, we are over run by immigrants....starting with the first few from England. I'm f*cking done with this. I can not believe some things I've read in this thread. I'll leave with this: Anyone who wants to round up and deport all the illegal mexicans and build a wall...you better volunteer to build the f*cking thing. Especially considering the main labor force for it will be in Mexico....

I'll sum up my view:

1. I like immigrants. Just please come here legally (if the system needs to be fixed to facilitate that, then that's a separate issue). 

2. If I break a law, I go to jail or pay a fine.  Illegals shouldn't get a pass just because they are so woebegone.

3. If immigrants come here illegally, they place a burden on society yet do not have to do anything to shoulder that burden (pay federal, state, and municipal taxes, have jury duty, etc).

4. I am white (by color anyway), but that doesn't make me privileged, and I find it racist to say whites are bigoted and privileged.  That's a stereotype.

5. Thieves want a better life for themselves, but that doesn't mean we tolerate them.  Why is an illegal immigrant okay with everyone?  If an immigrant wants to come over and do better, great!  But to not do so legally is to spit in the face of the country and basically say, "Yeah, I want the benefits of living here, but none of the responsibility."  That, my friends, is called a parasite.

But if liberals want to believe every sob story should get a pass, fine...oh, unless your white, right?



Edited by Epignosis - July 17 2009 at 07:19

Those Native Americans crossed that land bridge and sure raped this continent 25,000 years ago!

JJLehto wrote: micky wrote: are you seriously even confusing the immoral nature of slavery... with illegal immigration. sorry man....  not in the same boat... not in the same ocean.. not in the sphere of logic. you want to bring illegal immigration and slavery into the same conversation. why is immigration restricted..... fear... by bigots.  Spare me the f**king economics.. if immigration wasn't made so difficult.. those people would now be citizens.. and paying taxes. It's true. People can come up with ALL the justification they need....but it really is bigotry. I mean let's take the most current example...mexicans. The whole "taking jobs" thing is unfair because as we've said it's the employers fault....no one can fault the immigrant, if I had to support my family I would do the same. So I could UNDERSTAND a gripe if you lost a job to an immigrant, but outside that....it is xenophobia. Don't give me the "degradation of our culture" bullsh*t. What is our "culture" I know our culture is one of immigrants... I also love the "we need to wall off the border for security reasons! Stop terrorists from entering!" Even though the terrorists entered through Canada.... And I won't say who, you can look it up, but earlier I saw the comment "the founding fathers didn't expect us to be over run by immigrants" OVER RUN BY IMMIGRANTS!? We are all immigrants, unless you are a full blooded native americans. So yea, we are over run by immigrants....starting with the first few from England. I'm f*cking done with this. I can not believe some things I've read in this thread. I'll leave with this: Anyone who wants to round up and deport all the illegal mexicans and build a wall...you better volunteer to build the f*cking thing. Especially considering the main labor force for it will be in Mexico....

hahahha.. nice post Brian. I am done in this thread.. but wanted to respond to your post.  I do tend to stay out of political discussions here. I don't suffer fools well... and I agree..some of the things I read didn't exactly bring out my warm and fuzzy side.  I could respect opinions more if they came from some rational basis.. such as life experience.. but usually it comes from people who simply don't know what the f**k they are talking about.  How many of anti-illegals here actually taken the time the get to know some of these people.  If they did... they might see they are not the demons that the GOP propaganda machine paints them to be.. they are people.. like you.. like me... who want the same as you or me... just an opportunity to have a better life.

on that note...

this whole taking jobs thing..... 


any forum members here lost a job to an illegal immigrant?...  didn't think so.   They generally work the bottom dregs of jobs in this country.  They are the ones working the agriculture fields... slaughter houses... trade jobs... or minimum wage service industry jobs... that many americans simply feel are below them. That is why so many things are so cheap in this country.... especially food.  There would be no work force Brian to build that wall if they deported illegals.. they'd all be needed to pick the fruits and vegetables in the fields... or carve up Charlotte in the slaughterhouses so you can slap some BBQ sause on her dear remains for your party on the 4th of July. with commensurat pay of course... which drives prices UP. 

Psstt...  Merril Lynch doesn't lay off white employees to hire a cheaper Latino illegal.  If you've lost a job to an illegal... it was probably time to find another job... and in those jobs... you can always find another. That is the nature of those jobs... very transcient. Job losses haven't been in that sector of the economy... we are recession proof hahaha.  People can do without the fancy sh*t... but people still have to live with basic services.

nothing to add to your excellent thoughts Brian about the culture.. in fact... I get a chuckle about the stupidity of those who argue that.  What cultural values does the hispanic population bring... strong work ethic.. strong religious and social values.  Things that align strongly with what used to be core values of the right.So why do they fear them... we've shot the economic theory to hell, they'd pay.. if they were citizens.  I'll say what I have said in real life.. to many a face..... that party has become the party of 'fear'... yes... of bigotry.

micky wrote: are you seriously even confusing the immoral nature of slavery... with illegal immigration. sorry man....  not in the same boat... not in the same ocean.. not in the sphere of logic. you want to bring illegal immigration and slavery into the same conversation. why is immigration restricted..... fear... by bigots.  Spare me the f**king economics.. if immigration wasn't made so difficult.. those people would now be citizens.. and paying taxes.

It's true. People can come up with ALL the justification they need....but it really is bigotry.
I mean let's take the most current example...mexicans.
The whole "taking jobs" thing is unfair because as we've said it's the employers fault....no one can fault the immigrant, if I had to support my family I would do the same.
So I could UNDERSTAND a gripe if you lost a job to an immigrant, but outside that....it is xenophobia.

Don't give me the "degradation of our culture" bullsh*t. What is our "culture" I know our culture is one of immigrants...
I also love the "we need to wall off the border for security reasons! Stop terrorists from entering!"
Even though the terrorists entered through Canada....
And I won't say who, you can look it up, but earlier I saw the comment "the founding fathers didn't expect us to be over run by immigrants"

OVER RUN BY IMMIGRANTS!? We are all immigrants, unless you are a full blooded native americans. So yea, we are over run by immigrants....starting with the first few from England.
I'm f*cking done with this. I can not believe some things I've read in this thread.

I'll leave with this:
Anyone who wants to round up and deport all the illegal mexicans and build a wall...you better volunteer to build the f*cking thing. Especially considering the main labor force for it will be in Mexico....

micky wrote: hahahhaha... oh brother...  think for a minute Robert..  just think what you WOULD pay if they were all just tossed out of the country.  You are from SE SC...   how much would they have to pay you to work in that Smithfield plant in Tar Heel. Want to see how much your pork will cost when you have to pay lazy self-intitled white guy $25 an hour to slaughter hogs and work in the conditions of that plant.

You mean NC, right?

I don't know where you get off talking about "lazy self-intitled (sic) white guys."  Everybody in my family (and 98% of my family is in Fayetteville) are blue collar workers or LESS.  Mechanics, machinists, welders, carpenters, electricians, thirft-store cashiers and everybody who never really had anything in their lives.  They work their balls off no matter what they do, and most get by paycheck to paycheck. 

I'm sure you and Raff would have my ass reported in a heartbeat if I said sh*t about "lazy immigrants." 

You wanna see the cost of pork and everything else increase? Let Democrats keep raising minimum wage...which has companies increase the price of their goods and services in turn.



Edited by Epignosis - July 16 2009 at 19:58