For my Libertarian friends

Yes  ProgressiveAttic, thank you for sharing this.  The media here in America likes Hugo too much for us to hear this side of the Venezuela story.

JJLehto wrote: We're lucky that we can be so worldly here, llama. In terms of real life application, as harsh as it may sound (coming from a liberal I know!) can one really think about foreign countries and the good it will produce for them?If I was elected into office tomorrow, am I representing India? Am I representing a state in China? No. So, I guess the simple answer is, "It sucks, but that's how it goes"Fine, I can live with it....however, I want to see things recover in a few years. We've seen jobless recovers, job LOSS recoveries. And now the recession is over but unemployment still near 10%. I HOPE the recovery will trickle to the main street soon from wall street and if so then all is good for another 10-20 years, but if there are no job to return to, how will we recover? What jobs will their be in 10 years? Are we all supposed to work sh*t jobs/ start our own business/ become engineers?

I am a bit late for the discussion .... but I'll join nonetheless!

I agree with your first paragraph: no country should be worrying about people in other country that's that country's responsibility.

Now, outsourcing helps your country. How? By providing cheaper goods...

I'll tell you the experience of my country Venezuela. Here democracy started about 50 years ago after a series of military dictatorships (and some sort of anarchy before that)and the people that fought for its establishment were former communists and started to develop "social-democratic" ideas... now their justification for democratic legitimacy was that the dictators and other countries (particularly the US) were keeping all the rent product of the oil industry for themselves without giving anything to the "starving people".

Then the state started to apply policies based in new ideas to incentive education, national production and 100% employment.. among this policies are:
*Lots of public spending (including literally giving away money)
*Complete nationalization of the oil industry
*Nationalization of public services: phone, electricity, water, etc.
*Exchange control
*Enormous taxes and lots of prohibitions towards importing goods and outsourcing

This was, of course, unsustainable in any way... but meanwhile the price of oil was raising enormously (due to wars on the middle east), Venezuela seemed like a paradise: people payed no taxes, gas was cheaper than water and there were lots of money in the streets... this because, the country started to contract an enormous debt to be able to maintain the currency overvalued and people employed... eventually the debt became so big and the economic issues so incontrollable that:
*The oil industry became less efficient every day (even though it had ever increasing number of employees)
*Phone and electricity started to fail in a daily basis
*Concerning this particular subject: the supermarkets were empty (true there was no outsourcing and no foreign country stealing jobs... but nobody was producing in the country either because it was too expensive!)
* Unemployment reached 60%!!!

During the 80s politicians started to realize that you cannot run or control an economy: you can either obstruct it or let it flow... so they started to decrease regulations and public spending, in that moment people started to get angry because they stopped getting their "free lunch", revolts started and there were two failed coup d'etat (one of them headed by our current president Hugo Chavez).

People then voted for Chavez in 1998 so he could reverse the liberalization of the economy and start to wildly spend again. And so he did: now 90% of industry belongs to the state, it is almost illegal to outsource and the crazy spending and giving away money made us the 3rd country with the highest inflation. Now we are worst than before!
*Now if you find milk, flour, eggs, etc. in the supermarket you are lucky.
*Businesses are closing (+transnationals leaving), this means more unemployment.
*More than 80% of unemployment.
*And trying to start business is almost impossible for one reasons: too expensive (product of the enormous taxes for that and the almost impossible task of trying to outsource or import goods).

Please don't make the same mistakes!

stonebeard wrote: Maybe I'm callous, but I seriously care for the well-being of my family more than others. My emotions can not afford to be spread so thin over hypothetical suffering in places around the world. Excuse my lack of a bleeding heart, but if my family was put in a hard place because of outsourcing, you bet your ass I wouldn't write it off because someone some where else got a job. Family matters more than others--maybe not in an objective sense, but in a "me-giving-a-sh*t-about-the-issue" sense.

That is an entirely healthy attitude and I completely approve of it. You should care more about your family than the families of others, but lobbying for government bans for things you personally don't like, regardless of the consequences is, I believe, very foolish.

FWIW, JJ, I'm really sorry to hear about your Dad's job... that blows.  I'm no fan of globalization personally, though I realize the genie is out of the bottle and there's no going back.   But the issues aside, I hope your Dad finds something better soon and wish him luck, I know so many people hurting in this economy. 
Help him keep his spirits up. 

I guess which matters more? The livelihood of someone in China or someone here?
We can talk about it all we want but as a leader, I'd think your focus is limited by it.

As for being personal, my situation is not the only, many others in this country are in the same boat, you seem to have alluded that you were also in that boat. It's not that I want to help ME, want to help us..but c'mon, its easier to use my persona example.
Fine, I guess things will somehow be righted, and everything will be good for another 10 to 20 years until the next recession comes, then repeat.

We're lucky that we can be so worldly here, llama. In terms of real life application, as harsh as it may sound (coming from a liberal I know!) can one really think about foreign countries and the good it will produce for them?
If I was elected into office tomorrow, am I representing India? Am I representing a state in China? No.

So, I guess the simple answer is, "It sucks, but that's how it goes"
Fine, I can live with it....however, I want to see things recover in a few years. We've seen jobless recovers, job LOSS recoveries. And now the recession is over but unemployment still near 10%. I HOPE the recovery will trickle to the main street soon from wall street and if so then all is good for another 10-20 years, but if there are no job to return to, how will we recover? What jobs will their be in 10 years? Are we all supposed to work sh*t jobs/ start our own business/ become engineers?


Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2010 at 20:47

And Anton, that is an interesting article, and like I said I've heard it before in classes...but how do we get to that true free market state you like to mention?
By keeping hands completely off? Or will that simply lead to the abuse we've seen? I mean, how can we get to that true capitalist society?

JJLehto wrote: Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: Here's what I think part of the problem is...paranoia. I do understand where it is coming from, but I don't want some dictatorship, or even government run companies, just some rules/regulations whatever needs to be done to stop the from acting irresponsibly. I assume the response would be "its a slippery road to communism" or "once their is power they will become a dictatorship" all that fun stuff. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if murdering people makes me happy? Can I do that? Less extreme, if someone is made happy be stealing, can they just rob anyone because it's their right? If a CEO finds happiness in making ever cent he can, should he be allowed to?  Sure. What  if it means screwing people? I don't want to limit profits, take money, run the company...just stop abuse. Isn't that why there are laws prohibiting murder/theft and punishments for those who break them? Or, is this just the price we have to pay for freedom? "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" aren't "inalienable rights" despite what numerous documents state.  We execute felons, imprison criminals, and...well, you are free to pursue happiness all you like.  No guarantees you shall find it. I do not oppose any and all governmental restrictions on business, particularly when public safety is at risk.  But that comes with the territory of national security and public health, not making sure everybody has a job or money in his pocket. Why is it liberals are content to demand strict governmental regulations on producers?  Why not control the economy by imposing strict regulations on consumers?  Think of it:  You get a list from the government telling you what brand of waffles you must buy.  What brand of razors.  What brand of beer.  What make of car.  What brand of tampons.  What brand of computer.  What websites you can visit and when.  Surely that would do it and keep people employed!  Because Rob, and don't play these silly games that so many people like to, you know when it comes to government regulation personal lives is where it's kept out. Again, I am not a communist here...obviously there's a difference between regulating producers/businesses and stepping in and saying "Rob you are going to buy X,Y,Z, this amount, and these specific brands". Like I said, liberalism does not equate to communism...and you know that man, cmon.

You cut a nice arbitrary line between private lives and private business.  Yet you don't show why one should be affected and the other left alone.

"Obviously there's a difference?"  Nonsense.  If I start a business and the government tells me I have to keep your dad on for the rest of his life as an employee...how is that different?

Epignosis wrote: JJLehto wrote: Here's what I think part of the problem is...paranoia. I do understand where it is coming from, but I don't want some dictatorship, or even government run companies, just some rules/regulations whatever needs to be done to stop the from acting irresponsibly. I assume the response would be "its a slippery road to communism" or "once their is power they will become a dictatorship" all that fun stuff. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if murdering people makes me happy? Can I do that? Less extreme, if someone is made happy be stealing, can they just rob anyone because it's their right? If a CEO finds happiness in making ever cent he can, should he be allowed to?  Sure. What  if it means screwing people? I don't want to limit profits, take money, run the company...just stop abuse. Isn't that why there are laws prohibiting murder/theft and punishments for those who break them? Or, is this just the price we have to pay for freedom? "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" aren't "inalienable rights" despite what numerous documents state.  We execute felons, imprison criminals, and...well, you are free to pursue happiness all you like.  No guarantees you shall find it. I do not oppose any and all governmental restrictions on business, particularly when public safety is at risk.  But that comes with the territory of national security and public health, not making sure everybody has a job or money in his pocket. Why is it liberals are content to demand strict governmental regulations on producers?  Why not control the economy by imposing strict regulations on consumers?  Think of it:  You get a list from the government telling you what brand of waffles you must buy.  What brand of razors.  What brand of beer.  What make of car.  What brand of tampons.  What brand of computer.  What websites you can visit and when.  Surely that would do it and keep people employed!

Because Rob, and don't play these silly games that so many people like to, you know when it comes to government regulation personal lives is where it's kept out. Again, I am not a communist here...obviously there's a difference between regulating producers/businesses and stepping in and saying "Rob you are going to buy X,Y,Z, this amount, and these specific brands". Like I said, liberalism does not equate to communism...and you know that man, cmon.

This is nonsense. Outlawing outsourcing would result in higher prices for everything, a lower GDP and a lower standard of living for everyone in the country. Is that what you want? No one owes your father a job. He voluntarily agreed to provide a service for a specified wage and they voluntarily agreed to his conditions. When it became unprofitable for them to continue employing him, they stopped. Do you also think it should be illegal for your father to quit his job when it becomes unprofitable to keep it? How is that fair to the employer? They lost a valuable employee and now have to spend time and resources finding a new one. Or is it only thing that negatively affect you personally that you want to ban?

Everyone knows it is a bad business strategy to stay with the same firm for thirty years anyway.