For my Libertarian friends

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavism

alot of interesting posts here, i don't want to be all to political on PA but i like everything that are not showed down your throte, i like the ideas form the Age of Enlightment and that knowledge should not be underestimated. an Enlighted Mind is more imune to threats like National Socialisme, Neo-conservativism, extreme religios groups and totalitarian left.

It did, Anton and as I said it really didn't say too much I havn't learned in Econ classes, though it was a nice article.
I don't know if you caught earlier talks with me and Rob, at the time I was talking more out of frustration.
I know the theories and all that, but when you can actually see some of the negative results... Even if you disagree, I'm sure you can understand the frustrations and worry. Read some of the talk with Rob to see some points I brought up, too lazy right now Anyway, I do understand it...but do you understand my frustration and fear?

As for Social Democracy, I am a huge fan. Look at the Nordic Countries. Proof that a socialistic system can exist in a democratic, capitalist society. However, I realized a year or 2 ago what the video said...it would not work in America. The Nordic countries have small populations, and are generally more wealthy. Adopting their system, as is, into America would be near impossible, especially politically. As that video mentioned, the Nordic countries have more or less been in agreement about Social Democracy since WWII. Its a mindset, one that deff does not exist in America. But it is intriguing prospect to me. The best of both worlds! Maybe I'll be the one to find the Social Democratic policy that fits America






Edited by JJLehto - June 24 2010 at 05:07

It's funny, in my own econ class the book was actually talking about the Puritan work ethic, and us Americans are stubborn in our "by the boot straps" and "Do it yourself" Mentality.
You truly espouse it man.

And for the record...as for my old man. A liberal, (or at least socially libertarian ) guy, always democratic down the line voting, (voted for Obama) and wanna know how he feels about filing for unemployment? Wanna know how he feels about being home all day during the week...I can tell you, he's not taking it easy.


Maybe it's fear Rob. I'm 21, about to graduate from college with no idea what to do, and I have no skill. Really, what the f*ck can I do? Nothing. What is out there for a career?
Maybe some friends and I can get in on the internet business world. We were just dreaming of opening a music store . I just hope you are right man. It just pains me to think that this country of ours will live with 10% unemployment, and all our top technology and minds being used to shipping jobs outside the country. I sure do hope you are right Rob

 

thellama73 wrote: JJLehto wrote: Captain Clutch wrote: this whole thread is just Americans proving the "paranoid conservative" American stereotype Thank You.  I may not have satisfied people's questions to their liking, and I'll admit that. But  no one here owned up to what I said either...Earlier I said this stems from paranoia, and it was either missed or ignored. I know it's rooted in us Americans to fear the government, but the closest anyone came to just admitting it was Rob. And Rob's debating about freedom and its limitations was nice compared to every answer I always get, "JUST KEEP THE EVIL GOVERNMENT HANDS OUT OF IT! AH!" I don't deny that I fear the government. I think you'd be a fool not to fear the government in the same way that you'd be a fool not to fear a grizzly bear. They are both incredibly powerful and can easily do you great harm if you're not careful. This is not paranoia, but prudence. As for the cyclical markets, what worries me Rob is that what jobs will their be? Our manufacturing days our long behind us. Some of that has been made up by tech jobs/white collar/science all those. But alot of that is being outsourced. I know jobs will alays be created but it seems to me more are being lost than made. Will 4% average unemployment be a thing of that past? Will we have no choice but to become engineers in the future and work to build robots that will be doing our physical jobs? It's just frightening man. I see an economic recovery with 10% unemployment still and just think, is this the norm now? I understand your concerns, but history has shown that new technologies create more jobs than they cost. When the automobile was invented, people in the horse and buggy industry fought it tooth and nail, but more jobs were created than were lost. Same thing with computers, mass production and just about any other technology you can name. I think your fears for the future are misplaced. What you should really be worried about is the government's smothering of our economy which has resulted in a very slow recovery from this recession.

I like your candor, but the government and a bear? I mean, I do understand your fear... I do, maybe I'm just blissfully naive and optimistic but I just don't have this fear of the government becoming an authoritarian beast. Look at Europe, and look at the Nordic countries. Social Democracy....as in Socialist aspects in a Democratic, Capitalist system.

If you really want I'll fetch numbers, but the Nordic countries are always ranked high in terms of freedom, personal AND economic, business does well, yet income inequality is much lower than most countries. Not saying what Sweden does is exactly right for the US, something unique would have to be figured out, but do you at least see that the government will not become an intrusive monster? And look at the US government from 1789 to now. Probably the founding fathers would be horrified, but we've not become an authoritarian regime, much as we'd like to think so....

As for technology I do hope you're right. I guess it's MY irrational fear, but I just feel like we're at the point were technology is replacing jobs, not creating. And whatever is created can be shipped elsewhere, ad when THEY start saying what I am....it'll be shipped elsewhere...

That's another point. Want me to be less self focused and more concerned about ALL, how about this? The real big cats can simply shift to anywhere. We lose jobs to China? When they get to big, it can all be shifted to Indonesia, then to Vietnam etc etc etc. Those on top get richer while ALL workers, in the world, are pushed down.
These MNC owners are their own entity. They live and operate outside all boundaries. THAT scares the hell out of me!



Edited by JJLehto - June 24 2010 at 00:03

^"The government is a grizzly bear"?  I think this only proves Brian's point.

Captain Clutch wrote: this whole thread is just Americans proving the "paranoid conservative" American stereotype

Thank You.
 I may not have satisfied people's questions to their liking, and I'll admit that. But  no one here owned up to what I said either...Earlier I said this stems from paranoia, and it was either missed or ignored. I know it's rooted in us Americans to fear the government, but the closest anyone came to just admitting it was Rob. And Rob's debating about freedom and its limitations was nice compared to every answer I always get, "JUST KEEP THE EVIL GOVERNMENT HANDS OUT OF IT! AH!"

stonebeard wrote: Maybe I'm callous, but I seriously care for the well-being of my family more than others. My emotions can not afford to be spread so thin over hypothetical suffering in places around the world. Excuse my lack of a bleeding heart, but if my family was put in a hard place because of outsourcing, you bet your ass I wouldn't write it off because someone some where else got a job. Family matters more than others--maybe not in an objective sense, but in a "me-giving-a-sh*t-about-the-issue" sense.

Thank you as well Stoney.
 When I was asked about "Is my father better than one in China" and how outsourcing helps thousands around the world... I didnt want to sound cold, but no, I dont' care about them. I mean, it is good that someone more needy will get a way to help their family, but hey, it was taken from mine...

Epignosis wrote: Economies tend to be cyclic.  The irony is that people start to demand governmental intervention, and that serves to make things worse, not better.  That's all. I hope your father finds suitable and profitable employment soon, and that your mother maintains hers.

And thank you as well.
I do apologize for being a little more hot headed than I usually am, but I really am frustrated.
I know theory and all, but you have to admit it's tough to hear "it better for the country/for the business" or "the free market does its things" when I see a man I admire greatly sitting around all day doing things to occupy himself/going on unemployment, and my brothers education being postponed when he finally gets to do what he's been wanting to do.  And I don't want to be a selfish b*****d, MANY families are in my place and worse off, and that's why I get riled up.

As for the cyclical markets, what worries me Rob is that what jobs will their be? Our manufacturing days our long behind us. Some of that has been made up by tech jobs/white collar/science all those. But alot of that is being outsourced. I know jobs will alays be created but it seems to me more are being lost than made. Will 4% average unemployment be a thing of that past? Will we have no choice but to become engineers in the future and work to build robots that will be doing our physical jobs? It's just frightening man. I see an economic recovery with 10% unemployment still and just think, is this the norm now?



Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2010 at 23:34

Epignosis wrote: Interesting that I'm lower middle class (and probably always will be) and I support conservative libertarianism.

Don't you realize that you've just been brainwashed by the corporations into conservative philosophy so that they can keep you down and hoard all the money for themselves?

Oh wait, I meant to say "You're right!"

Epignosis wrote: Interesting that I'm lower middle class (and probably always will be) and I support libertarianism.

Edited by ProgressiveAttic - June 23 2010 at 23:42

I like oligarchies

Captain Clutch wrote: y'all should give Sweden a visit, see how they're doing

LOL Social Democracy for the win!

Tired of arguing....reduced to trolling



Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2010 at 23:09