Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Why is Anglo-American prog so white?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedWhy is Anglo-American prog so white?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 17:36
^I never heard this Israel thing. Do  you have any info?
Back to Top
eldridge View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 15:50
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by eldridge eldridge wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Hey, it is your topic and you can name it whatever you want. I certainly do not side with Eldridge's views but I am old enough to know the more you respond to him the more opportunity he has to deliver his warped message. Sometimes we write words and they are misunderstood. For instance, when i wrote the blues grew up alongside country music I started getting feedback about how people did not like country music. I was not referring to this modern country western drivel which we have today. I should have been more specific, of course they might not like old country music either. Both the blues and old country music came out of poverty. Old country music was the music of sharecroppers and Appalachian hillbillies, not what it has become today in country western music. Eldridge has never learned that "union differentiates".
 
What have I said that is "warped"? Can someone refute one thing that I've said. All people have done is call me names, "racist", "supremacist". Calling someone names is a graceless way of admitting you have lost the argument.
 
I haven't "lost" the argument. It's just not one I want to engage in, actually.

Then why have you responded at all? I ask you, or anyone else, to refute anything that I've said.
Back to Top
Hercules View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 15:34
Originally posted by eldridge eldridge wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Hey, it is your topic and you can name it whatever you want. I certainly do not side with Eldridge's views but I am old enough to know the more you respond to him the more opportunity he has to deliver his warped message. Sometimes we write words and they are misunderstood. For instance, when i wrote the blues grew up alongside country music I started getting feedback about how people did not like country music. I was not referring to this modern country western drivel which we have today. I should have been more specific, of course they might not like old country music either. Both the blues and old country music came out of poverty. Old country music was the music of sharecroppers and Appalachian hillbillies, not what it has become today in country western music. Eldridge has never learned that "union differentiates".
 
What have I said that is "warped"? Can someone refute one thing that I've said. All people have done is call me names, "racist", "supremacist". Calling someone names is a graceless way of admitting you have lost the argument.
 
I haven't "lost" the argument. It's just not one I want to engage in, actually.
A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
Back to Top
eldridge View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 14:21
@Timothy Leary, I just checked the racial demographics for Lilliwaup, WA. It is 85.10% white, 0.21% black, 7.30% American Indian, 0.62% Asian, and 6.37% Hispanic. This proves the hypocrisy of white liberals. It diverstiy is so wonderful, why do you live in a lily-white community? You experience virtually no diversity at all. Why not buy a house in the black community? Detroit has really cheap real estate nowadays.
Back to Top
eldridge View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 14:12
For anyone who is interested in what I have to say, I invite you here, www.amren.com
Back to Top
eldridge View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 14:08
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Hey, it is your topic and you can name it whatever you want. I certainly do not side with Eldridge's views but I am old enough to know the more you respond to him the more opportunity he has to deliver his warped message. Sometimes we write words and they are misunderstood. For instance, when i wrote the blues grew up alongside country music I started getting feedback about how people did not like country music. I was not referring to this modern country western drivel which we have today. I should have been more specific, of course they might not like old country music either. Both the blues and old country music came out of poverty. Old country music was the music of sharecroppers and Appalachian hillbillies, not what it has become today in country western music. Eldridge has never learned that "union differentiates".
 
What have I said that is "warped"? Can someone refute one thing that I've said. All people have done is call me names, "racist", "supremacist". Calling someone names is a graceless way of admitting you have lost the argument.
 
Why do you use racial epithets like "hillbillies" in describing the Appalachian people?
 
 
Back to Top
timothy leary View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 14:01
Hey, it is your topic and you can name it whatever you want. I certainly do not side with Eldridge's views but I am old enough to know the more you respond to him the more opportunity he has to deliver his warped message. Sometimes we write words and they are misunderstood. For instance, when i wrote the blues grew up alongside country music I started getting feedback about how people did not like country music. I was not referring to this modern country western drivel which we have today. I should have been more specific, of course they might not like old country music either. Both the blues and old country music came out of poverty. Old country music was the music of sharecroppers and Appalachian hillbillies, not what it has become today in country western music. Eldridge has never learned that "union differentiates".
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 13:57
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

People should say what they mean. It came as no surprise to me when a racist chimed right in on the thread.
Yeah ... because the world is so easy that we can change it ... . People will keep making mistakes and learn from them, and there's nothing we can do about it. We'll just have to get used to it.
Back to Top
eldridge View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 13:53
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

People should say what they mean. It came as no surprise to me when a racist chimed right in on the thread. 
 
Would that be me by any chance?Tongue Can you name one thing I've said that was "racist"?
Back to Top
jude111 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 20 2009
Location: Not Here
Status: Offline
Points: 1754
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 13:47
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

I just wondered why it was Anglo American as opposed to Anglo in general. Americans are not the only 'Anglos" playing prog music.

Yes, there's a lot of misunderstanding here about why I named the topic "Anglo-American prog." Sorry for the confusion, perhaps I should've worded it better. The reason I named it thusly: I wanted to concentrate on prog coming from the USA and England. I *know* that prog is international, and there are many great prog bands all over Europe, South America, and Asia. What I found curious, however, was the lack of black involvement in prog music **IN THE USA and (to a lesser extent) the UK**, given how ubiquitous blacks were in popular music during prog's heyday in the 60s and 70s in every other conceivable genre, including funk, r&b, soul, jazz, blues, pop, disco, and even rock (e.g. Hendrix, Sly & Family Stone, Love, Thin Lizzy, etc.).


Edited by jude111 - January 09 2013 at 13:50
Back to Top
timothy leary View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 13:38
People should say what they mean. It came as no surprise to me when a racist chimed right in on the thread. 
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 13:30
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

I just wondered why it was Anglo American as opposed to Anglo in general. Americans are not the only 'Anglos" playing prog music.
I think he meant both Anglo and American.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 09 2013 at 13:32
Back to Top
timothy leary View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 13:27
I just wondered why it was Anglo American as opposed to Anglo in general. Americans are not the only 'Anglos" playing prog music.
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 12:57
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

And to name it Anglo American prog is very narrow to begin with.

And down right xenophobic and ethnocentric!

As I say ... the yanks and brits invented the world ... and the rest? ... no one noticed because they had no media or tv's or radio's ... !!!

Confused

Embarrassed
I did not see a single hint of xenophobia.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 09 2013 at 12:59
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17513
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 10:58
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

In the midst of his rambling through tangents, Pedro has done justice to the topic.   In the 60s and 70s, blacks in America had a distinct music culture and one that couldn't be sold effectively to white audiences unless they crossed over.  Jimi Hendrix was not the first blues guitarist by any stretch of imagination but he rocked the blues and thereby became acceptable to listeners who expected to hear a 'white' sound.   For a long time, actually even today, commercial success of black musicians was reflected in the R&B charts, not the Billboard.   A genius like Wonder crossed over because his music absorbed eclectic influences and, even while retaining its black identity, appealed to those outside the community.   It backfired for Minnie Riperton - not R&B enough for blacks and not rock enough for whites, and such. 
...
 
And one other person had an even bigger impact on this ... and he was far more progressive in his area than most ... but we would never consider him there, for those two albums, at least!
 
Goes like this in my early days of seeing black artists:
 
Chuck Berry -- (DJ's Madison) 95% black audience
Little Richard -- (DJ's Madison) 95% black audience
Earth Wind and Fire -- Santa Monica Civic -- 90% black audience
Blue Note All Stars -- in LA -- 100% black audience
Oscar Peterson -- in LA -- 100% black audience
Charles Musselwhite -- in SF -- 90% black audience
Mississipi Charles Bevel -- in Santa Barbara -- 90% black audience
Stevie Wonder -- Santa Monica Civic -- 95% black audience (like 72 or 73)
James Brown -- Santa Barbara -- 95% black audience
Michael Jackson (Bad Tour) - LA - 50% black audience
 
When it came to the "mixing" and getting people together, there is one person mentioned here that is never given that credit or appreciated for some of his work. Stevie Wonder, for some reason, was not as strong in the audience department as Michael was ... but it shows you ... that even without advertising ... some of these folks went to see their artists ... but it also showed a separation that is ... still visible.
 
It bothers me that when I went to see YES, the audience was 99% white. And when I saw Pink Floyd in 1972, it was 95% white. And when I saw it last year ... it was 90% white ... which is an improvement from 30 years ago ... I guess.
 
All in all, the day that ALL MUSIC BECOMES IMPORTANT, AND NOT THE RACE OR COLOR, is the day that we will ALL OF US, be color blind.
 
Sadly, when you look at the world and even some religious groups wanting to go their own separatist way ... I am not feeling too positive that the integration will happen ... and that we will hear some more mixes and far out music.
 
Which is really sad ... because a label like ECM has so many "blacks" ... but no one in America enjoys listening to them ... it's much easier to listen to the much more traditional "Blue Note" stuff and not anything else. And "Blue Note" has not, and probably never will, release the stuff that is not "traditional" that they think will confuse the fans about the artistry involved. A lot of it was experimental, free form and played far longer than 5 minutes -- which we are not hearing ... thus, we will not have a better, and more comprehensive, sense of history of music in America.
 
Again, America is about 4 or 5 countries, and some of them do not have the respect of others and vice versa ... and that means that it is really hard to have one area appreciate another, unless the media can get a top ten out of it ... so everyone thinks it's good!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Kati View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 10:30
Cooee!!!! All of you Back to topic maybe it's because African-American's are smarter and make a whole lot of money with rap/ RnB etc, meanwhile skilled musicians specifically in the prog industry can't even afford to fund their own cd's, they hold a daytime job to support their families, while often getting a lot of critique from reviewers philosophizing how the artist should play their own music and above all also having a hard time to break into this industry just to be heard because many progfans only take notice of big name bands.  Big smile
 


Edited by Kati - January 09 2013 at 11:37
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17513
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 10:15
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

And to name it Anglo American prog is very narrow to begin with.
 
And down right xenophobic and ethnocentric!
 
As I say ... the yanks and brits invented the world ... and the rest? ... no one noticed because they had no media or tv's or radio's ... !!!
 
Confused
 
Embarrassed
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
eldridge View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: January 08 2013
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 09:06
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by eldridge eldridge wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by eldridge eldridge wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Black? White? Any other colour in between?
 
What does it matter?
 
My ancestors went for a walk about 70000 years ago and turned left when they left Africa. My friend Vijay's ancestors turned right instead. Some people's ancestors didn't feel the need to go for a walk because they liked it in Africa.
 
I really don't see the need to get hung up on race when we all came from the same ancestors and we're all really the same except for varying amounts of skin pigment. Maybe where we ended up affected us more from a cultural standpoint; perhaps African Americans got exposed to Country music which is possibly why they invented the blues to express their dissatisfaction and I totally understand!
 
I'd ask a different question - why are so few women involved in prog except as singers???

So we're all essentially identical twins with just a different paint job? There's absolutely no difference between an Australian Aboriginal and a Japanese? 

Not absolutely identical, but the variation is less than 0.25% of our genome. That's why all humans can interbreed successfully as we're genetically so similar. Those of us whose ancestors migrated to Northern Europe evolved slightly differently, losing our skin pigmentation (all our ancient ancestors had dark skin) so that we could synthesise vitamin D better in the relatively weak sunlight. Those who migrated to the East and settled in the Indian subcontinent kept it to protect them against UV.
 
Most differences between us are essentially cultural and it's cultural issues that seems to provoke racial friction in Britain. I don't get it; I don't like it. I prefer to celebrate the rich, varied culture that people from all backgrounds have brought to my country, not just the indigenous white traditions.
Hercules, thanks for responding in a civil manner. Yes, the differences are small but they are substantial. Take dogs, for example. What is the genetic variation between say, a cocker spaniel and a German shepherd? I don't know actually but I'm sure it's slight. They're both dogs, but clearly they're different in temperament and behavior. I dont believe we all came from the same place, if that's what you're saying. The Japanese are clearly distinct from the African.
 
Do you really celebrate diversity though? Maybe you do. What is the racial makeup of your community, neighborhood? I've found that diversity creates tension and hostility. Japan is an example of a racially homogeneous country which is quite harmonious.
 
No - it's racism that causes tension and hostility. Racial diversity can happen quite happily so long as people accept everyone as a human being and forget where they came from.
 
And I'm afraid some of your comments suggest that you have white supremacist views which I wholly disassociate myself from.
When most people are free to choose who they associate with, they choose people like themselves. If diversity were a source of strength, people would seek it out naturally. They don't. It is only within the past 50 years or so that diversity, all of a sudden, became a great source of strength.

The Japanese don't like diversity and have an immigration policy which reflects that. I don't here anybody seeing Japan needs to import more Sikhs, Guatamalans etc.

Israel kicked out hundreds of blacks a few months ago with nary a peep from anyone. "Israel is for the white man" said a high Israeli official. Why is it okay for Israel to do that?

A few months, Mexico kicked out a number of illegal Central Americans, saying "Mexico is for Mexicans". 
So the Japanese are yellow supremacists, The Israelis are Jewish supremacists and Mexicans are brown supremacists. You say I am a white supremacist. What's the difference between my views and the above examples?

It is white countries, and only white countries, which are forced to accept diversity, and ultimately the displacement of white people themselves.

Back to Top
Pietro Otello Romano View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 22 2011
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 112
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 08:25
Frankly I haven't red all the post of this topic, and maybe I am writing nothing new about the topicEmbarrassed, but I am living in London, in a multiethnical society; several blacks are among my friends and/or aquaintances, and none of them like prog music, and by the way I dislike most of the black music too. Maybe is just the way that the two ethnic group approach music. I quote in advance that I have totally not clues to how to play an instrument at all, and so I am not fashinated by incredible skills and virtuosism. I think that the way a black compose is basically more focussed on the instruments, and on the contrary a white composer is more focussed on the composition, that have its roots in the idea, in other words, a black works in order to get a song from something he/she got playng with the instruments, while a white, must works on the idea he got on his mind in order to arrange the instruments for the song.

Probably is more a feeling than even an opinion, but is just the feeling I got... Big smile
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful

what we pretend to be."



Mother Night - Kurt Vonnegut
Back to Top
Hercules View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 07:39
Originally posted by eldridge eldridge wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by eldridge eldridge wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Black? White? Any other colour in between?
 
What does it matter?
 
My ancestors went for a walk about 70000 years ago and turned left when they left Africa. My friend Vijay's ancestors turned right instead. Some people's ancestors didn't feel the need to go for a walk because they liked it in Africa.
 
I really don't see the need to get hung up on race when we all came from the same ancestors and we're all really the same except for varying amounts of skin pigment. Maybe where we ended up affected us more from a cultural standpoint; perhaps African Americans got exposed to Country music which is possibly why they invented the blues to express their dissatisfaction and I totally understand!
 
I'd ask a different question - why are so few women involved in prog except as singers???

So we're all essentially identical twins with just a different paint job? There's absolutely no difference between an Australian Aboriginal and a Japanese? 

Not absolutely identical, but the variation is less than 0.25% of our genome. That's why all humans can interbreed successfully as we're genetically so similar. Those of us whose ancestors migrated to Northern Europe evolved slightly differently, losing our skin pigmentation (all our ancient ancestors had dark skin) so that we could synthesise vitamin D better in the relatively weak sunlight. Those who migrated to the East and settled in the Indian subcontinent kept it to protect them against UV.
 
Most differences between us are essentially cultural and it's cultural issues that seems to provoke racial friction in Britain. I don't get it; I don't like it. I prefer to celebrate the rich, varied culture that people from all backgrounds have brought to my country, not just the indigenous white traditions.
Hercules, thanks for responding in a civil manner. Yes, the differences are small but they are substantial. Take dogs, for example. What is the genetic variation between say, a cocker spaniel and a German shepherd? I don't know actually but I'm sure it's slight. They're both dogs, but clearly they're different in temperament and behavior. I dont believe we all came from the same place, if that's what you're saying. The Japanese are clearly distinct from the African.
 
Do you really celebrate diversity though? Maybe you do. What is the racial makeup of your community, neighborhood? I've found that diversity creates tension and hostility. Japan is an example of a racially homogeneous country which is quite harmonious.
 
No - it's racism that causes tension and hostility. Racial diversity can happen quite happily so long as people accept everyone as a human being and forget where they came from.
 
And I'm afraid some of your comments suggest that you have white supremacist views which I wholly disassociate myself from.
A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.211 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.