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Topic ClosedMetallica ?
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Poll Question: how do you fel about Metallica being added ?
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2009 at 10:51
Originally posted by progrocker2244 progrocker2244 wrote:

Without Metallica prog metal would probably NOT exist. In addition to that, the founder of PA wanted them here, and if he wants it then it should be there without 20-page discussions like this.


I will assume that these sentences are both ironical.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2009 at 10:38
They're here, so deserve to be discusssed as much as any other group - the fact that general perception is that they're a bit on the controversial side for a site like this is what generates so much discussion. You should have seen the fallout from Radiohead, Queen or Iron Maiden...
 
Frankly I'd rather have one 20-page discussion (which hasn't been so much about the validity of Metallica recently, but focussed more on the discussion of other related bands) than 20 1-page discussions.
 
Besides, the NWoBHM was a progressive time for metal and is fundamental to the evolution of Prog Metal, and the music that gave rise to bands like Metallica, Dream Theater et al - so this is a good side discussion, IMO.
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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2009 at 07:25
Without Metallica prog metal would probably NOT exist. In addition to that, the founder of PA wanted them here, and if he wants it then it should be there without 20-page discussions like this.

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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 22:43
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
It's not really thrash, like Exciter is, though.

It's got that "dum-digga-dum-digga-dum" chug so beloved of Iron Maiden - I can't think of an Iron Maiden song post their 1st 2 albums (I agree, they're the best!) that doesn't use that rhythm.



True, but speed it up a hell lot and replace Halford's clean singing with gruff punk shouts and then hear the difference!  It's interesting that Metallica's debut always seems to evoke Motorhead to mind while Slayer's own does in fact bring Judas Priest to mind. I am not sure how much of a link there is though between Show No Mercy - other than the track Black Magic - and what Slayer proceeded to do on the next EP and full length respectively, they just became a different band!
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 20:45
The last album I listened to from Raven was One for All, Raven's way of saying they were back to the All for One sound. But the songwriting wasn't there, though the attitude was. 
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Points: 65306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 16:52
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

I don't really hear Schenker's Iommi influence - Schenker has a "chop-based" style, that I'd associate with modern-day technical metal bands, while Iommi's style has more bluff, but creates a pronounced melodic style overall with a relatively low density of "chops".

There is a strong Sabbath/Iommi style in some of the early Scorpions material,  but his own style quickly developed. I think the Prog link is quite clear - the solo at the end of "Into The Arena" clearly implies classical music, and tech-heads will spot how, even though he doesn't shred, he nevertheless uses a great number of techniques intentionally. This is the basis of technical metal - technique and precision, and this later style is decidedly his.



right, that's my point about progressive metal evolving independently from the prog genre, coming into its own through the use of classical and other technique rather than by a prog influence-- the fact that Prog rock and Prog metal both utilize classical music ideas does not necessarily indicate a direct lineage between the two, and though the S.F. bands were partly influnenced by Saga, Rush and Yes they were far more impacted by the dual guitar lines and arrangements of the Scorps, Priest and Maiden.. seems to me the development of a technical - or increasingly technical - approach in metal comes from its own players, each building on the last; Page, Iommi, Blackmore, Schenker, Roth, Moore, Scholz, VanHalen, Rhoads, Malmsteen, Jarzombek, etc., rather than a direct connection to any 'prog' or 'art rock' movement.  I strongly suspect progressive and tech metal would have developed much like it is now without Crimson, Yes or Genesis.





Edited by Atavachron - July 10 2009 at 17:27
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Points: 11401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 15:44
Nice to see the NWOBHM getting a mention in here. Although not as overlooked as they once were, Blitzkrieg are still worth mentioning - especially when Satan was brought into the debate. Metallixa did cover Blitzkrieg, but how many are familiar with the other tunes they had - which eventually and finally and very long overdue got issued on vinyl in 1985?

Like the title track of that same album - A Time of Changes

Nothing revolutionary in 1985, but would have been if the song had ben recorded closer to it's date of creation from what I understand :-)

I do wonder how much (or not) and act like Virgin Steele have impacted prog metal too - any notions on that one?

They were never the most proggy outfit from a technical nor compositional point of view I guess, especially after Starr left them, but they had some stuff going with atmospheric moods that wasn't exactly standard fare in the metal scene of the mid 80's - as showcased in the end of the title track off their third album  Noble Savage

And on their first two albums they did have some rather "advanced" stuff as well - in the context of being a metal band at that time.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 15:33
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 

Yeah, I am aware of that and had that in mind when I posted that, from there to RIB, sort of the logical conclusion of thrash, is a long journey traversed in less than a decade.  I consider the title track of Stained Class to be more important to thrash metal though; the riffs follow the vocal lines very closely in a way I haven't heard from on any album preceding Stained Class.  Even the bridge and short breakdown leading up to the solo, all very thrash before thrash. 

It's not really thrash, like Exciter is, though.

It's got that "dum-digga-dum-digga-dum" chug so beloved of Iron Maiden - I can't think of an Iron Maiden song post their 1st 2 albums (I agree, they're the best!) that doesn't use that rhythm.

Exciter has the continual "dugga-dugga--dugga-dugga" in the rhythm guitars combined with the snare backbeat over double bass drums that is the core of thrash. You can hear it plainly in the music of "Kill 'Em All" - especially "Whiplash" and "Metal Militia", except that Metallica extended the technique to use full chords rather than single note riffing, played a sight faster, and added really sneaky accenting - you really don't hear this in other thrash-oriented metal bands of the time or later. 

Whiplash is a prime example - it ain't just mindless thrashing like Venom - although Metal Militia might be a bit mindless (and based on "Black Metal")... I love the way the chorus riff of MM creates a kind of vortex that sucks you in. Great!


Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

Raven ! In a way, their career arc resembles Voivod's. Once both groups hit their stride, they both had opening acts that would go on to hit the big time while they never got past having a "solid" career.

A bit like Frijid Pink in the late 1960s-early 1970s - they had this new band called Led Zeppelin opening for them...

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:


Good point on Diamond Head & MCA. 

"Borrowed Time" is good - really good, in a kind of progressive blues-rock-metal kind of way, but the songs that originally appeared on "The White Album" were pale compared to the aggressive originals. 

Canterbury is a really odd album though - 50% of it seems like pop rubbish - what were they thinking?
But the other 50% is years ahead of its time - I'm not sure if the world has caught up yet or not. Tracks like "Knight of the Swords", "Ishmael" and "To The Devil His Due" are amazing interpretations of Heavy Metal and what can be done with it. 

Tell me those songs aren't Prog Metal! 

Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

That's also what seemed to happen to Raven's music after All for One. Stay Hard had two good songs, and the rest sounded stilted or forced. The Pack is Back was better, but too commercial, and they lost the crash bang wallop attitude that had earned them fans in the first place. 
And even when they went "me(n)tal" again, they never (IMO) really put out a really good album. The "Mad" EP was pretty good. But apart from Life's A Bitch, they never put out anything that cold have brought them back to the spotlight. But if you like Raven, you gotta get that one, as it matches All for One. 

I saw a fairly recent interview with them, in which they said they'd gone back to the "All for One " sound for the album they were putting out back then - can't remember when that was - but I didn't believe them, because I felt really bitten by "Stay Hard" and "Nothing Exceeds...", both lacklustre albums. AFO is fantastic, if a bit radio-oriented. Tracks like "Mind Over Metal", the title track - and the epic verging-on-Prog "Run Silent Run Deep" (which concept I always felt Maiden ripped off when they did "Rime of the Ancient Mariner"). Of particular note is the breakdown section from about 2:25 onwards, which shows just how versatile Raven were. I love Mark Gallagher's constant use of harmonics for decoration, and the wierd stop/start rhythms.

Have you heard their most recent album, "Walk Through Fire"?
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 14:11
Raven ! In a way, their career arc resembles Voivod's. Once both groups hit their stride, they both had opening acts that would go on to hit the big time while they never got past having a "solid" career.
Good point on Diamond Head & MCA. That's also what seemed to happen to Raven's music after All for One. Stay Hard had two good songs, and the rest sounded stilted or forced. The Pack is Back was better, but too commercial, and they lost the crash bang wallop attitude that had earned them fans in the first place.
And even when they went "me(n)tal" again, they never (IMO) really put out a really good album. The "Mad" EP was pretty good. But apart from Life's A Bitch, they never put out anything that cold have brought them back to the spotlight. But if you like Raven, you gotta get that one, as it matches All for One.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 12:45
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 

Interestingly, "Stained Class" is the first album I know of on which the "thrash" technique was used. "Exciter", the track in which it can be found, is also innovative in its twin guitar usage - unlike Wishbone Ash, Thin Lizzy et al before them, they attempt something that sounds vaguely classical, avoiding traditional blues structures. It's not my favourite Priest song, but it's probably their most innovative.

Yeah, I am aware of that and had that in mind when I posted that, from there to RIB, sort of the logical conclusion of thrash, is a long journey traversed in less than a decade.  I consider the title track of Stained Class to be more important to thrash metal though; the riffs follow the vocal lines very closely in a way I haven't heard from on any album preceding Stained Class.  Even the bridge and short breakdown leading up to the solo, all very thrash before thrash. 

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

 
Maiden were one of the first of the NWoBHM - I think they started around 1975 or so (just after Priest - same year as Motorhead). Their original sound was very rough - it wasn't until 1982's "Number of the Beast" that they finally got a slick modern sound.

Yeah, and I like both Di Anno albums more than the Bruce phase which has got a renewed lease of life in the last few years.  Not that I think Di Anno is a better singer, in fact Bruce was perfect for the albums they would go on to do with him, but what they did..well, it's nice but it does get boring after a while. LOL
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2009 at 08:09
I don't really hear Schenker's Iommi influence - Schenker has a "chop-based" style, that I'd associate with modern-day technical metal bands, while Iommi's style has more bluff, but creates a pronounced melodic style overall with a relatively low density of "chops".

There is a strong Sabbath/Iommi style in some of the early Scorpions material,  but his own style quickly developed. I think the Prog link is quite clear - the solo at the end of "Into The Arena" clearly implies classical music, and tech-heads will spot how, even though he doesn't shred, he nevertheless uses a great number of techniques intentionally. This is the basis of technical metal - technique and precision, and this later style is decidedly his.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 

(...)by the mid 80s, you could barely find resemblance between say Reign in Blood and Stained Class from less than a decade ago. (...)

Interestingly, "Stained Class" is the first album I know of on which the "thrash" technique was used. "Exciter", the track in which it can be found, is also innovative in its twin guitar usage - unlike Wishbone Ash, Thin Lizzy et al before them, they attempt something that sounds vaguely classical, avoiding traditional blues structures. It's not my favourite Priest song, but it's probably their most innovative.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

  The NWOBHM trail a la Angel Witch and Diamond Head  seems to have got lost somewhere in the speeding up of the thrash attack and the polishing of the sound by Iron Maiden at the other end of the spectrum.

Maiden were one of the first of the NWoBHM - I think they started around 1975 or so (just after Priest - same year as Motorhead). Their original sound was very rough - it wasn't until 1982's "Number of the Beast" that they finally got a slick modern sound.

Black Sabbath got the sound on their 1980 album, "Heaven and Hell" - which I reckon is probably the first Prog Metal album, in terms of sound and style. AC/DC had a modern sound too - compare "Highway To Hell (1979)'s" decidedly 1970s sound with "Back in Black" (1980) - they seem worlds apart, and not just because of Johnson. The other band that suddenly had a new "blinging" metal sound in 1980 was Motorhead; "Ace of Spades" (1980) is still fresh, while "Bomber" (1979) sounds decidedly dated.

Angelwitch's 1st album suffered, production-wise, but nowhere near as bad as Raven, who only got the production they deserved on "All For One" (1983). Persian Risk were another great band on the same label (Neat) that churned out innovative heavy metal acts in the North of England, including Venom and Tygers of Pan Tang - I think they're one of the great overlooked.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

 
 I can hear traces of it in what little 80s neo prog I have heard, particularly Twelfth Night but that trail is again a lost once because the neo prog of today doesn't sound a whole lot like what it did then.  

Even back then, Twelfth Night were something of a unique band - Marillion were great, but their music was decidedly easier on the ear and less surprising than TN. Even TN sleeked down their sound in the 1980s - compare the style on the early cassettes like "Smiling At Grief" and the album "Live at the Target" with the more Joy Division kind of sound they had on "Fact and Fiction". TN were a Neo-Prog band apart.

Metal had progressive acts too - I suppose I'd have to include Magnum, although I could never stand them, Praying Mantis showed potential - but for my money, Cirith Ungol, who formed in 1972, and Satan are the most criminally overlooked metal bands of that time;

Cirith Ungol - Better off Dead
Cirith Ungol - Atom Smasher

Satan - Trial By Fire (early thrash)

Diamond Head were the original Prog Metallers/Thrashers though - while their style stems from Led Zeppelin, the thrash and intricate/progressive style seems to have come from nowhere - the thrashing bears little resemblance to the steady open E that characterises "Exciter" (released the year before "Lightning to the Nations"). 

My understanding is that they had to tone their music down for MCA. Cry






Edited by Certif1ed - July 10 2009 at 08:10
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 21:12
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 
good post, I would say however that progressive metal, at least as it was emerging in the San Francisco scene, was not prog elements pasted on metal - or a fusion of the two - as much as an urge to progress heavy metal itself.  The similarities between prog rock and prog metal lie in this creative urge, and less between a musical lineage between the two [though as Certified correctly points out metal was in many ways a product of the progression of rock].. the British and European contributions to the progressing of metal - Priest, Scorpions, Maiden, Ozzy's first two, Angel Witch, etc. - may be more influenced by the prog artists but that is not necessarily clear either, as we see what appears to be independent progression in the material of, say, Uli Roth or Michael Schenker stemming from their own classical backgrounds rather than influence from ELP or Jethro Tull.  If anything we hear influence in Schenker's playing from fellow rocker Tony Iommi more than any prog bands.


Yeah, I agree with this - sorry for the late response by the way Wink - in spirit there is a similarity, because metal did explode unthinkably in the 80s and inconceivable possiblities in metal were experimented with furiously until by the mid 80s, you could barely find resemblance between say Reign in Blood and Stained Class from less than a decade ago.  And you are right about Schenker too, definitely influenced by Iommi. Likewise, I would say Roth was influenced by Hendrix and Blackmore.    The NWOBHM trail a la Angel Witch and Diamond Head  seems to have got lost somewhere in the speeding up of the thrash attack and the polishing of the sound by Iron Maiden at the other end of the spectrum.  I can hear traces of it in what little 80s neo prog I have heard, particularly Twelfth Night but that trail is again a lost once because the neo prog of today doesn't sound a whole lot like what it did then.  
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Points: 10669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 19:22
Another interesting early attempt to bring something sophisticated to thrash type music was Motorhead's Another Perfect Day. I think a lot of people missed that album, and I think Motorhead fans hate it, but it featured Robo from Thin Lizzy on guitar for just one album.

Robo brings a soaring psychedelic melodic and orchestrated guitar approach to Motorheads relentless pursuit. It's far different from the average Motorhead album, much more melodic and with a full production. As I said before, I think Motorhead fans hate that album, too sophisticated and 'pretty'.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 18:41
You bet I remember Raven!
 
What a great band - possibly the first Tech metal band - at least, the first I ever heard that put an emphasis on the technical side - I think the Crash, Bang, Wallop EP was released in 1979 - about the same time Maiden broke through with Running Free (or was it Sanctuary?).
 
IIRC, Metallica's first bigs gigs included supporting Raven - good link!
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Points: 10669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 10:15
Re Megadeth, I remember them making quite a splash at first, and their music did come across as more technical than Metallica, but not as 'proggy'. Although Megadeth was breaking new ground, they didn't invoke the spirit of prog past the way metallica was.

I'm not saying Megadeth doesn't belong on PA, maybe they do, but I'd say the difference between Megadeth and Metallica is somewhat but not exactly the difference between progressive rock and Progressive Rock.

Re early attempts at mixing hardcore and metal, besides Motorhead and Deep Purple, the first band I heard really get musical with a thrash beat was Raven. Anybody remember them?
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Points: 10669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 10:08
Well it was a nice discussion (till now, ha ha), to get things back on track. When I first heard Puppet I was interested in how American hardcore was merging with metal, interesting times musically. I hadn't listened to prog in a while and considered it to be dormant at best.

Then here comes this Master of Puppets album that I had bought because the first 2 metallica albums just kicked ass for hardcore thrash plus good guitar playing and I'm listening to this and I think damn!, these guys have brought prog-rock back and they did it through the dying emebers of the American hardcore scene, Brilliant!
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 08:46
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Alls I have to say is heh heh heh heh heh, huh huh huh huh, heh heh heh heh heh...
[Insert Beavis and Butthead rocking out image here pending approval.  No intention of insulting Metallica fans BTW.]
Bring on AC/DC.Tongue

Can you give examples - or maybe starting a new thread would be more appropriate.

Frankly, though, I don't think your suggestion stands much of a chance.

Now you do realize I was just being silly.  I know their music about as well as I do Metallica's, which is to say hardly at all. LOL




Edited by Slartibartfast - July 09 2009 at 20:09
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 08:29
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Alls I have to say is heh heh heh heh heh, huh huh huh huh, heh heh heh heh heh...

Bring on AC/DC.Tongue

Can you give examples - or maybe starting a new thread would be more appropriate.

Frankly, though, I don't think your suggestion stands much of a chance.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 06:54
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

^I'm not expecting any nice reviews by anybody of anything between the black album (didn't they nick that idea from Spinal Tap?) and Death Magnetic - but both of those are good albums, even if the former isn't proggy and the latter is only proggy in style.
 
The albums in between are pretty awful - but not as nasty as "Love Beach" by ELP Dead


Death Magnetic ... well, I would agree that it sounds a bit related to prog in terms of style, but that may be because DT ripped Metallica's style off (listen to Constant Motion). But in any case, I would never give this album more than 2 stars.Embarrassed
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2009 at 06:36
Love Beach ie pretty good .
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