John Coltrane to be added to PA

darkshade wrote: a No for me, in terms of Coltrane being added to the site. Herbie Hancock is more likely to be added. However, i saw this thread coming, and kind of knew most people would be against it. I'm not going to repeat what everyone else has already said as to why he wont make it. Jazz Archives should be an extension of Prog Archives, almost a sibling website. haha. I would help in its creation if anyone want to help take up the task!

Rocktopus wrote: Duke Ellington has been a huge influence on Robert Wyatt, too.

Yep. And Charles Mingus on entire Canterbury scene

Rocktopus wrote: Another suggestion: moog pioneer Walter/Wendy Carlos?

Rejected for Prog Electronic.

Another suggestion: moog pioneer Walter/Wendy Carlos?

Rocktopus wrote: micky wrote: again...  the rock part of this is nothing more than a rock to hide under...  jazz, rock, electronic, folk, and pop fit under prog. I thought those genres atleast to some extent had to be fused with rock, to be prog(rock).

sure .... in texts written by half-wits who think prog was English.. .symphonic.. based in rock.. and died at the birth of the age of punk.  No.. rock was the starting point.. being the predominant music of the day. .and was a rebellion of sort TO it..... but because it is prog it has never had to have beenBASED on rock to BE prog... it shot into a 1000 glorious directions .. .isn't that why we love prog man.

as far as Varese and Stockhausen.... again... that is another subject... a different discussion.  We are talking the roots of prog here.. 'proto prog'... taking pop music... and rebelling against it.. and making art of it.  THAT.. that .. in a nutshell is exactly what prog is.. and is about.  Brubeck may not have been 'prog-rock' ... which is why I'm not calling for him to be in ISP/RPI or eclectic.. J-R ...or whatever pigeon-hole we can dream up for him .....but I think it is safe to call him the first to be ... prog. 

Easy Money wrote: micky wrote: Easy Money wrote: micky wrote: who here has said that Brubeck played 'progressive rock'... not I kind sir...I am talking about an important .. missing link.. in the proto prog category here.  I guess it depends on how far you want to stretch the definition of proto-prog. My attention span for these kind of arguments is very short so I'll just let my first post stand on it's own. You can tell it's important because I used all caps for a change, ha ha ha. ..  and I guess I have an iron gut for these kind of things.and yes... proto needs to be be stretched out IMO... TO this point and time... 1959... when popular  music.. met complexity and exotic influences and odd meters and reached the general public. The expansion of what was possible in music.. and pushing the boundries of popular music.  If that isn't prog in a nutshell what it.  There were artist who MADE prog possible.. gave them their divine spark of inspiration to throw out the rules. The Beatles were a step in this with their addition in proto...  Brubeck is the next one. What I fine pyramid she is ... you should definitley check out Don Ellis for the odd time meter thing, he's much more rockin than Brubeck, but Brubeck probably came first. Ellis is an obvious influence on Soft Machine, Zappa, Ozric Tentacles and many many more. Probably the first people to combine things and stretch genres were Les Baxter and Sun Ra. Personally I think Les Baxter may be the roots of prog-rock, I think guys like Fred Frith and Robert Wyatt would agree. Let's not forget those 'hippie' bands who 'invented' jazz rock. ...Where is that soapbox.    Anyway I have work to do (real work), but I'll be back, you'll play nice now.

good suggestions... .obviously... I have thrown my hat in with Brubeck.. because he was the first.. and is the logical beginning point if Proto is to be expanded a bit.. which I think is a wonderful idea.  Wouldn't it be nice to have people here discover Sun Ra and Les Baxter.

1959.. that is where Proto should begin... the birth of prog... where the expansion of pop music into art. began.. and it did with Brubeck.  Not just the first.. .but he brought it to the masses .. not some obscure record. That album touched all kinds of people.. from Donald Fagen to Emerson.

yes someone mentioned Sun Ra earlier....  agree with that completely btw


Edited by micky - August 16 2008 at 09:23

Duke Ellington has been a huge influence on Robert Wyatt, too.

I knew you didn't support Coltrane being added, Micky. I just started my post saying no to both. I can see I wasn't clear, but I did read your post.

I know early early on many progbands were probably inspired by Dave Brubeck Quartet's use of complex time signatures, especially the albums Time Out and Time Further Out. But unlike Mile, they/he never released anything remotely close to what I associate with progressive rock, or rock.

Eric Dolphy's avantgardejazz-classic Out to Lunch, like Time Out is often mentioned as a huge influence  on prog. And its probably true. But none of them (or Bartok) really had a chance to fuse rock and jazz like Miles did a few years later, because that kind of rock hadn't been made yet.

Edit: I noticed a couple of posts that sneaked inbetween. Ok I'm fine with including Brubeck and plenty more jazzartists, but  then we need to open up for Stockhausen, Bartok, Varese, Orff etc too. And then selected works/recordings, not full discographies would be a really good idea.


Edited by Rocktopus - August 16 2008 at 09:11

micky wrote: who here has said that Brubeck played 'progressive rock'... not I kind sir...I am talking about an important .. missing link.. in the proto prog category here.

I guess it depends on how far you want to stretch the definition of proto-prog. My attention span for these kind of arguments is very short so I'll just let my first post stand on it's own.

You can tell it's important because I used all caps for a change, ha ha ha.

A lot of this has already been said, but it won't stop me from repeating it:

MILES DAVIS PLAYED PROGRESSIVE ROCK. Coltrane and Brubeck did not.
It's really that simple.

Listen to Miles' albums like Agharta, Dark Magus, Pangea, Big Fun or Get Up With It, those are rock/RnB/avant-garde/futuristic African albums, not jazz albums.

Edited by Easy Money - August 16 2008 at 08:46