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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 15:16
And of course some just changed tack, e.g. Stewart and Coling Goldring, mainstays of Gnidrolog, who went on to form punk band The Pork Dukes - responsible for such classic ditties as Tight Pussy and Big Tits.

I suspect they might not have been taking the whole punk thing entirely seriously.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 15:05
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

So when Punk arrived in late 1975 it attracted a younger audience even though the people who actually played it were somewhat older. As an 18-yo at the time I thought myself to old to be a Punk - despite being the same age as Susan "Siouxsie" Ballion and John "Vicious" Richie, a year younger than Johnny "Rotten" Lydon and David "Vanian" Left ... and much, much younger than Joe Strummer, Hugh Cornwell and Ian Dury (hence my contention that these Punk musicians listened to the same music as I did when they were younger).


Yep. The audience of punk was younger than that of classic prog, certainly so.

Quote The other thing to remember is Prog didn't go away - it soldiered on through the 80s - Neo Prog wasn't called "Neo" back then, it was just called "Prog" - a lot less popular than it once was, it still sold albums.


Indeed, it did not go away at all! Sure, Marillion or IQ did not sell out stadiums, but at least Marillion were in the album charts, and some of their songs had airplay in Europe. Rush was quite a big thing in North America, I have been told. Then came the 90s and the Internet-connected prog scene we have today. Prog never died, it just shrunk back to more modest (and more healthy! - who really wants the stadium shows back? We can leave that to boy bands and girl bands!) proportions.

Also, while prog was a major current in the early '70s, it was not the leading current in terms of market sales, I think. Sure, it featured prominently in the album charts (the near total absence in the single charts has other reasons, of course), and there had been stadium shows, but bubblegum pop, glam rock, soul and the various kinds of bourgeois popular music (C&W, Schlager, chanson, etc. - depending on which country you lived in) were bigger (and they also were bigger than punk in the late '70s, of course). And people like Lester Bangs had been hating prog long before the first of the legendary three cords was even strummed! The "downfall" of prog in the late '70s probably was less deep than many of us now think.



Edited by WeepingElf - June 04 2016 at 15:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 14:24
Originally posted by ster ster wrote:

Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.

 
It is silly. These people have no clue and haven’t been there. Punks hated prog and especially arena rock acts like Foreigner, Boston Styx etc. Maybe not ALL of them but the general consensus did. I have read countless interviews where punk artists would scorn others if they showed any kind of skill on your instrument. They were ostracized and called a fascist or a poseur. Remember that? Everyone that wasn’t punk was a fascist! Down with elitism! Very militant. They felt that rock n roll was becoming bourgeois or upper class because of the skill that was displayed. Especially the extravagant stage shows where they felt the artists were becoming too big for the audiences. I have read an interview with Adam Clayton from U2 and he said that during his punk days they hated when guitarists were perceived as these super heroes that had to be saluted. 
Punk was a rebellion just like prog was a rebellion against sixties music. Don’t believe me? Bill Bruford had “Keith Moon Sucks" written on his sneakers. Prog rockers wanted to smash the formulaic pop music that came before them–and they did. Punk wanted to simplify rock and bring it back to the kids.


I was in the middle of the punk scene in Chicago, 1979 onwards, and saw this first hand.  There were even exchanges....I remember a fine jazz-rock band, "Apprentice," who channeled Brand X, yell "Punk SUCKS!!" during a concert. 

A friend of mine who, like me, got into both art forms just looked at each other and went "Huh??". 

There were some interesting attempts at fusion between prog and punk in Chicago....I was invited to try out for this band as bassist, and the very first song I threw out to the guitarist was "Larks Tongues In Aspic Part 2!"  He rose to the bait and we had a great jam session.  The Marquis were more of a hard-edged new wave fusion thing, with a punk attitude.  

You had to live through it!!  


< ="cosymantecnisbfw" co="cs" id="SILOBFWID" style="width: 0px; height: 0px; display: block;">

Edited by cstack3 - June 04 2016 at 14:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 07:19
Originally posted by WeepingElf WeepingElf wrote:

I don't think that "punk killed prog". Nor did "disco kill prog". Punk and disco catered to different audiences than prog, I think. I'd rather say that the demise of prog was to some degree homemade - the prog albums of the late 70s were mostly of poorer quality than those of the early 70s, and there were some outright white elephants such as Works and Love Beach by ELP. Quite a few prog fans moved on to modern jazz or classical because they were disappointed about what was going on with the great prog bands, I guess. Or just kept listening to the old albums they already had. But it was also such that the times were changing to the worse: the optimism of the early 70s faltered, and the western societies were moving to the right, as evidenced by the election victories of Thatcher, Reagan and Kohl. And most of the rock press has been stacked against prog all the time and howled in triumph at the demise of the genre.

Mostly true, however there was also a generation-change. 

While we tend to regard music in decades (the 60s, the 70s, the 80s etc.) it changes more frequently than that as illustrated by the number of different subgenres that appear within each decade that appealed to a single demographic (e.g. white teens). For example the early 60s were Beat Music (aka The British Invasion) and Rhythm & Blues followed by Psychedelic Pop and Blues Rock; the 70s had Prog Rock, Glam Rock, Blues-Rock, Heavy/Hard Rock, Pub Rock and Punk while the 80s went through New Wave, Synth-pop, New Romantic, Shoegazing/Dream Pop, Gothic Rock and many more besides (such as all the flavours of Metal that emerged in the 80s). 

The audiences for each of these came from a surprisingly narrow age-group (mainly early teens whose ages spanned roughly a 5-year period), it would be unusual for one age-group to "like" the music of the previous generation ("My brother's back at home with his Beatles and his Stones - we never got it off on that 'Revolution' stuff"). 

So when Punk arrived in late 1975 it attracted a younger audience even though the people who actually played it were somewhat older. As an 18-yo at the time I thought myself to old to be a Punk - despite being the same age as Susan "Siouxsie" Ballion and John "Vicious" Richie, a year younger than Johnny "Rotten" Lydon and David "Vanian" Left ... and much, much younger than Joe Strummer, Hugh Cornwell and Ian Dury (hence my contention that these Punk musicians listened to the same music as I did when they were younger).

The other thing to remember is Prog didn't go away - it soldiered on through the 80s - Neo Prog wasn't called "Neo" back then, it was just called "Prog" - a lot less popular than it once was, it still sold albums.


/edit: the pedant in me must comment on the "white elephant" metaphor - a white elephant is an unwanted gift that is expensive to maintain or difficult to dispose of without offending the person who gave it. Often this is confused with "the elephant in the room" which refers to a controversial subject that all can see but no one wants to mention. But that's just idle pedantry, we know what you mean ;-)


Edited by Dean - June 04 2016 at 07:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 07:12
Originally posted by ster ster wrote:

Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.

 
It is silly. These people have no clue and haven’t been there. Punks hated prog and especially arena rock acts like Foreigner, Boston Styx etc. Maybe not ALL of them but the general consensus did. I have read countless interviews where punk artists would scorn others if they showed any kind of skill on your instrument. They were ostracized and called a fascist or a poseur. Remember that? Everyone that wasn’t punk was a fascist! Down with elitism! Very militant. They felt that rock n roll was becoming bourgeois or upper class because of the skill that was displayed. Especially the extravagant stage shows where they felt the artists were becoming too big for the audiences. I have read an interview with Adam Clayton from U2 and he said that during his punk days they hated when guitarists were perceived as these super heroes that had to be saluted. 
Punk was a rebellion just like prog was a rebellion against sixties music. Don’t believe me? Bill Bruford had “Keith Moon Sucks" written on his sneakers. Prog rockers wanted to smash the formulaic pop music that came before them–and they did. Punk wanted to simplify rock and bring it back to the kids.
 
+1 on here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 07:10
Originally posted by Quinino Quinino wrote:

^
"Don't believe everything you read in the press."

Wisest thing to say, thank you Dean for putting it all in perspective with a single sentence. Thumbs Up
 
No wonder their same old rhetoric as that of the punk musicians, sorry but that's almost everything people always heard from them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 06:47
I don't think that "punk killed prog". Nor did "disco kill prog". Punk and disco catered to different audiences than prog, I think. I'd rather say that the demise of prog was to some degree homemade - the prog albums of the late 70s were mostly of poorer quality than those of the early 70s, and there were some outright white elephants such as Works and Love Beach by ELP. Quite a few prog fans moved on to modern jazz or classical because they were disappointed about what was going on with the great prog bands, I guess. Or just kept listening to the old albums they already had. But it was also such that the times were changing to the worse: the optimism of the early 70s faltered, and the western societies were moving to the right, as evidenced by the election victories of Thatcher, Reagan and Kohl. And most of the rock press has been stacked against prog all the time and howled in triumph at the demise of the genre.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 06:35
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:


That Wakeman concert is hysterical ----maybe he should do a concept album on Game of Thrones --that would be current. It does make me think that Europe and other parts of the world --other than the USA---accepted more types of music.
True, but it was also an unfortunate case of miss-booking. The Empire Pool Wembley was, as the name suggests, an arena sized swimming pool built for the 1934 Olympic games that could be converted to an ice-rink for ice shows that were popular in the 1970s. For one-off rock concerts the pool area was normally covered with boards for the audience and the stage arranged at one end (I saw Pink Floyd and Mike Oldfield concerts with this set-up). 

Unknown to Wakeman and his show organisers the date they had booked for the King Arthur live recording was in the middle of a long-running ice-show spectacular that was being staged at Empire Pool and the Wembley management refused to cover the ice or allow the audience on it. Rather than reschedule the show, (and rearranging a new date with the orchestra) instead they constructed a temporary pontoon stage in the middle, which left a huge gap between stage and the audience now seated around the arena, and as we now know, they filled that with ice-skating knights - something that probably seemed like a good idea at the time after a few beers. LOL


Edited by Dean - June 04 2016 at 07:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 06:33
LOLThumbs Up


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 05:59
^
"Don't believe everything you read in the press."

Wisest thing to say, thank you Dean for putting it all in perspective with a single sentence. Thumbs Up


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 05:53
Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.
Au contraire, it is merely common sense and would be not very bright to think otherwise. Punk (and one must assume you mean the musicians who made it) did not appear in from vacuum so would they have spent their teenage years listening to the same music as the rest of us. They would probably like you to believe that they listened exclusively to The MC5s, The Stooges and the Velvet Underground but that is a fanciful bit of elitist propaganda... (in other words, it would be a big fat lie equal only to the number of people who claimed to have been at the Sex Pistols gig at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall in 1976)... the inevitable reality is, if a band was mentioned in the pages of Sounds, The NME or Melody Maker, or featured at one of the outdoor festivals such as Reading or Glastonbury during the first half of the 1970s then it was listened to (and subsequently liked) by practically every white teenage male in the UK at that time even if they later went on to be Punk. Stern Smile
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Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

Originally posted by ster ster wrote:

Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.

 
It is silly. These people have no clue and haven’t been there. Punks hated prog and especially arena rock acts like Foreigner, Boston Styx etc. Maybe not ALL of them but the general consensus did. I have read countless interviews where punk artists would scorn others if they showed any kind of skill on your instrument. They were ostracized and called a fascist or a poseur. Remember that? Everyone that wasn’t punk was a fascist! Down with elitism! Very militant. They felt that rock n roll was becoming bourgeois or upper class because of the skill that was displayed. Especially the extravagant stage shows where they felt the artists were becoming too big for the audiences. I have read an interview with Adam Clayton from U2 and he said that during his punk days they hated when guitarists were perceived as these super heroes that had to be saluted. 
Punk was a rebellion just like prog was a rebellion against sixties music. Don’t believe me? Bill Bruford had “Keith Moon Sucks" written on his sneakers. Prog rockers wanted to smash the formulaic pop music that came before them–and they did. Punk wanted to simplify rock and bring it back to the kids.




You are correct.

That's missed the point. (btw: I was there, and hardly any one in the UK listened to Boston, Foreigner or Styx). What Punk musicians said at the time of Punk was contrived propaganda and jumping on a bandwagon steered by manipulative media people (John Savage, Julie Burchill, Tony Parsons, Gary Bushell, Caroline Coon, Charles Shar-Murray, et al ... and lamentably previous Prog supporters such as John Peel and Ann Nightingale who owe their fame and radio careers to Prog). Of course they would never admit to listening to or liking any of the music that came before the emergence of Punk because it wasn't "cool" to do that. Don't believe everything you read in the press.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 04:12
Originally posted by ster ster wrote:

Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.

 
It is silly. These people have no clue and haven’t been there. Punks hated prog and especially arena rock acts like Foreigner, Boston Styx etc. Maybe not ALL of them but the general consensus did. I have read countless interviews where punk artists would scorn others if they showed any kind of skill on your instrument. They were ostracized and called a fascist or a poseur. Remember that? Everyone that wasn’t punk was a fascist! Down with elitism! Very militant. They felt that rock n roll was becoming bourgeois or upper class because of the skill that was displayed. Especially the extravagant stage shows where they felt the artists were becoming too big for the audiences. I have read an interview with Adam Clayton from U2 and he said that during his punk days they hated when guitarists were perceived as these super heroes that had to be saluted. 
Punk was a rebellion just like prog was a rebellion against sixties music. Don’t believe me? Bill Bruford had “Keith Moon Sucks" written on his sneakers. Prog rockers wanted to smash the formulaic pop music that came before them–and they did. Punk wanted to simplify rock and bring it back to the kids.




You are correct.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 04:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.
Au contraire, it is merely common sense and would be not very bright to think otherwise. Punk (and one must assume you mean the musicians who made it) did not appear in from vacuum so would they have spent their teenage years listening to the same music as the rest of us. They would probably like you to believe that they listened exclusively to The MC5s, The Stooges and the Velvet Underground but that is a fanciful bit of elitist propaganda... (in other words, it would be a big fat lie equal only to the number of people who claimed to have been at the Sex Pistols gig at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall in 1976)... the inevitable reality is, if a band was mentioned in the pages of Sounds, The NME or Melody Maker, or featured at one of the outdoor festivals such as Reading or Glastonbury during the first half of the 1970s then it was listened to (and subsequently liked) by practically every white teenage male in the UK at that time even if they later went on to be Punk. Stern Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 02:29
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Punk as was much a product of Art School alumni as Prog ever was, if not more so... And that's a significant point - Punk was not just music - it was an art movement - the Sex Pistols were manufactured by two middle-class Art students with a "product" to sell; whereas Prog (unlike Psychedelia before it) was just music without a subculture and Art-background to support, promote and maintain it. 


This is an important point which addresses why perhaps academics struggle to understand prog and perhaps because they don't understand it, they decide to scorn it (not singling out academics there, this is the natural human tendency - to deride what you don't understand).  Academics tend to approach rock based genres through the prism of their larger cultural relevance and since prog is, often but not always, floating in the stratosphere in blissful oblivion, it is an easy target to mock as pretentious or overblown.  

In a way, metal combined prog's escapism with the sub culture trappings of punk and that may be partly why it endures long after its late 70s breakthrough (classifying metal in the 'real metal' sense used by metalheads which excludes early metal like Black Sabbath).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2016 at 00:30
Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.

 
It is silly. These people have no clue and haven’t been there. Punks hated prog and especially arena rock acts like Foreigner, Boston Styx etc. Maybe not ALL of them but the general consensus did. I have read countless interviews where punk artists would scorn others if they showed any kind of skill on your instrument. They were ostracized and called a fascist or a poseur. Remember that? Everyone that wasn’t punk was a fascist! Down with elitism! Very militant. They felt that rock n roll was becoming bourgeois or upper class because of the skill that was displayed. Especially the extravagant stage shows where they felt the artists were becoming too big for the audiences. I have read an interview with Adam Clayton from U2 and he said that during his punk days they hated when guitarists were perceived as these super heroes that had to be saluted. 
Punk was a rebellion just like prog was a rebellion against sixties music. Don’t believe me? Bill Bruford had “Keith Moon Sucks" written on his sneakers. Prog rockers wanted to smash the formulaic pop music that came before them–and they did. Punk wanted to simplify rock and bring it back to the kids.





Edited by ster - June 04 2016 at 00:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 18:29
Punk? lol
Its not even considered music
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 17:15
Originally posted by lostrom lostrom wrote:

It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.
Au contraire, it is merely common sense and would be not very bright to think otherwise. Punk (and one must assume you mean the musicians who made it) did not appear in from vacuum so would they have spent their teenage years listening to the same music as the rest of us. They would probably like you to believe that they listened exclusively to The MC5s, The Stooges and the Velvet Underground but that is a fanciful bit of elitist propaganda... (in other words, it would be a big fat lie equal only to the number of people who claimed to have been at the Sex Pistols gig at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall in 1976)... the inevitable reality is, if a band was mentioned in the pages of Sounds, The NME or Melody Maker, or featured at one of the outdoor festivals such as Reading or Glastonbury during the first half of the 1970s then it was listened to (and subsequently liked) by practically every white teenage male in the UK at that time even if they later went on to be Punk. Stern Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 16:47
It's rather silly that some try to make it that punk didn't dislike prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 14:53
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:


The thing is - what and in what form would any prog or other, heh, pop music survive the ages as Haydn, Beethoven, Chopin, Bach and all the other boys in the band have done?
 
Perhaps film music, soundtracks and all that 'filmy' stuff? Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2016 at 14:53
I'm too young to talk about the climate change in '76/77, and pretty much everything about it is already said here.
But, I have to mention that the new wave that sort of evolved from punk always seemed to me much more elitist, manufactured, synthetic and sterile, with all those stiff guys in suits with firmly combed hair. I actually like some of those artists very much (Japan, Simple Minds, China Crisis), but I always felt some distance toward that movement, as well as today's indie. Also, I always felt that David Bowie, one of the few from the old guard that most punks accepted, was much less natural in what was doing than majority of prog bands.
And, yes, there were many middle-class and even some higher class (Joe Strummer) musicians in punk bands as well as many working class musicians in prog bands, so that "class fight" manufactured mostly by media and rock critics is downright stupid.
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