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Points: 20239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 15:04
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

What is good writing?   I'm currently reading Georges Simenon's first Maigret story and in addition to Simenon's clean, direct style, his knowledge of criminology and detection is evident.   But his is just one example of many approaches that can pull a reader in.

So seriously, what is good writing, and how is it that simple and linear may be as compelling as layered and complex?




Simenon actually used to come in into my great-grandfather's Comissaire office in Ličge ( yes, I know, I'm ashamed >> I got cops in my ancestors EmbarrassedLOL) and ask him about criminal cases that were over  and dealt with and trialed, so he could find material for his police novels


personally I prefer Simenon's non-Maigret books, because they're a lot less formulaic.


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Points: 166178 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2016 at 18:18
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

What is good writing?   I'm currently reading Georges Simenon's first Maigret story and in addition to Simenon's clean, direct style, his knowledge of criminology and detection is evident.   But his is just one example of many approaches that can pull a reader in.

So seriously, what is good writing, and how is it that simple and linear may be as compelling as layered and complex?



To define good writing I would think you would have to use the most objective method of qualifying 'good'...ie proper grammar/syntax/etc, coherence, knowledge of writing topic (esp for non fiction sources), ability to articulate, correct word choices...things along these lines. Obviously, you can enjoy the results or not. As for compelling...well...that would tap into popularity and mass appeal much more (which I don't think we've have the ability to detect), and probably has some sort of psychological element to it.
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2016 at 20:13
On a lighter note :) I found this quite interesting in terms of a sales perspective.
Not much use here to any of you, however considering you all excel in writing this might be fun for you to watch.  Big smileBig smile
 
N.B. I  am not posting this for any political purpose. 
 
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Points: 65248 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 23:58
What is good writing?   I'm currently reading Georges Simenon's first Maigret story and in addition to Simenon's clean, direct style, his knowledge of criminology and detection is evident.   But his is just one example of many approaches that can pull a reader in.

So seriously, what is good writing, and how is it that simple and linear may be as compelling as layered and complex?
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:39
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I have found editing to be an integral part of finished work;  when writing my book, it was when I'd change or, more often, remove whole sentences or paragraphs that the manuscript would tighten-up and come together, focusing the text, staying on topic and eliminating extraneous material.  

On the other hand, during the initial act of writing I do enjoy letting go and seeing what happens.  

How much do you value editing?--  especially the serious kind where you remove or alter whole passages that simply don't work or don't relate to the thesis?
Because everything I've written so far has been published on the internet in serial form pretty much as soon as I've finished writing each episode I don't have the luxury of being able to go back to older chapters to edit and revise them so all my editing is done within the confines of the current chapter. Mostly it's the normal stuff like spelling and grammar corrections, then it's fixing plot-holes, ensuring the characters have remained in character, checking continuity with previous scenes and the like. This is where I find 'story boarding' the entire story at the beginning to be of most use, so if I find that I've wandered off-script I can then decide whether the new direction is a keeper and needs to be worked into the story-line, or is extraneous to the plot and needs to be removed. Therefore culling of extraneous material is the next thing, however, if I really like the content of that and don't want to lose it I may try and work it into a later chapter or simply add it as a footnoteš or addendum, which I guess comes under the next category of 'failure to edit'. 

My editing failings are (and I suspect this happens with a lot of self-editors), the reluctance to remove any material; the addition of extra material; and (more often) the complete rewrite of whole chunks of text during the editing stage. I think this is the major difference between a writer who has a publisher and editor working for them and someone who does all of that themselves. I touched on this in my 2-star rated 'Please Self-Release Me' self-release blog - it's having the discipline to be honest with yourself over the quality of what you are producing. You frequently hear people say "Oh, I'm my harshest critic", but when that self-deprecation isn't false modesty it is often used as an excuse for not judiciously editing stuff they know doesn't pass muster.

šI do like sparse use of footnotes in novels.

I get what you mean about being married to a good bit of writing even if it's not fitting the rest of the piece, I had to become much more disciplined about removal.   One does become attached;  your words are like children.

But the level of improvement I found through elimination of passages not directly pertinent to the thesis was a revelation.   It wasn't just about being a disciplined editor, the whole piece would suddenly become much cleaner and readable.   And when finished, if I couldn't find a place for the extra material I'd removed, I left it out.   And am I glad I can do that now without much regret.
It depends on what you are writing...

I was reading a composer's blog where the writer made this comment that caused me to raise a smile:

Quote I know a very talented pianist who writes incredible melodies, but his songs are way too long. It drives me crazy, because if he'd just simplify his arrangements, his CD would be a thing of beauty. I won't name him, of course, but just look at this song arrangement:
    • A) Melody (Intro)
    • A) Melody (Repeated)
    • B) Chorus (simple version)
    • C) Bridge
    • A) Melody
    • B) Chorus (simple version)
    • C) Bridge
    • A) Melody
    • D) Change Up
    • B) Chorus (complex version)
    • C) Bridge (with embellishment)
    • D) Change Up (with much embellishment, turns into a vamp)
    • B) Chorus (with much embellishment)
    • A) Melody
    • B) Chorus (simple version)
    • C) Bridge
    • A) Melody (to end)

The song runs at six and a half minutes. While the song has one of the most beautiful melodies I've ever heard, the artist plays it into the ground. By the time you're five minutes into the song, you're really wishing it was over.

Keep it simple.
For that blogger, the ideal song-structure would be:
Quote  Here's the pattern:
    • A) Melody established (Intro)
    • B) Chorus
    • C) Bridge
    • A) Melody (Octave lower with embellishment)
    • B) Chorus
    • C) Bridge
    • D) Change Up
    • B) Chorus to End
and there you have a 3 minute song. Notice how simple the structure is?

Of course that advice is the antithesis of Progressive Rock and advice that I would summarily ignore when composing a piece of music, however that's not to say I wouldn't edit-out a section that I felt caused the piece to drag, or add in a second melody, chorus or bridge to add divergent interest. To me a song is finished when it is as long as it needs to be, whether that is 3 minutes, 6˝ minutes or 60 minutes. 

When composing music I spend more time listening back to what I've composed to ensure it keeps my attention than I ever spent composing it and I apply that same approach to writing, I read and re-read each chapter before calling it "finished".

In writing, my fiction errs towards "progressive rock" in structure and format, whereas if I am writing a technical paper, users manual or operating procedure I'll strive to make it concise and to the point like a 3 minute pop song. I guess this is why I don't enjoy writing reviews.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:05
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Edit: Also, maybe this is total stupidity, but I had this idea of not reading any other fiction when attempting to write. I know this may be antithetical to the standard of "read read read, write, read read read" but I kind of wanted to craft something as much my own as possible, have a "sterile" process, untainted by outside influences. 
Within realistic limitsLOL of course there's the years of stuff in my brain already and natural life influences. 

I tend to follow this too if I am working on something.  Not to avoid being influenced but it can be distracting.  You may see a good idea in a book you are reading and want to incorporate it.  And then another, and so on, until you lose direction.  It's important to stay the course.  

Another thing:  when writing a novel or anything fictional of that length (60000 plus words), writing an hour everyday is indispensable.  My previous attempts revolved around writing a lot in the weekend and almost nothing on weekdays.  Didn't work.  You never get the flow that you do if you write day in day out.  Target at least a 1000 words everyday, 10000 a week.  Bonus is you also get through the first draft of the novel quickly this way.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:00
Interesting...I have wanted to write fiction and struggled when I set down to it....whenever I attempted long form that is.  I could write short stories of anywhere between 2 to 6 pages easily but a novel seemed a fraught affair.  There were novels I never completed and some only in a half baked way for the sake of getting rid of the book! :D  

There's one finally that I am giving finishing touches to and hopefully can publish, let's see.  So what I have learnt from my educative misadventures is that it is better to wait until you actually have a story that feels worth writing about.  Forcing it never works.  Another thing is wait until you form the protagonist fully in your head.  Now, the writer Amit Chaudhari has it that writing novels around characters is so 19th century and why not have a city as the protagonist as the novel.  Fair enough, but imo that's too advanced and 19th century is still a good place to start as it gave us so many memorable characters that still live on through numerous TV/movie adaptations.  So chart out what kind of a person the protagonist is and what kind of arc his/her life is going to follow, all the ups and downs.  

As for detailing, each one may have their own methods.  I like to leave it a bit loose so there is room to improvise on the spot as I write instead of planning everything.  For others, planning every detail may work.  I cannot imagine, say, Agatha Christie would have been able to concoct so many mysteries using the same small set of poisons without having extraordinary patience with detail.  But if you at least chart out the life or slice of life of the protagonist that you are going to capture in your novel, you at least have a framework to improvise around.  
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2015 at 02:55
Writer's block is my lifeLOL
Reviews and blog posts are easy, but for ages I've tried to write serious fiction and damn it's hard. 


This has been my idea on how to get over my hurdle, anyone tell me if they think there's validity/their thoughts. 

I over plan, think too far ahead and try to come up with all this stuff in my head. For me, it hasn't worked. I'm thinking of just word vomiting. Spewing whatever I have out there. Do it every day. Later I can comb over it and sort things out, tidy it up, edit, repeat repeat repeat and hopefully it'll naturally pull together, instead of trying to plan every bit out in advance. 

Edit: Also, maybe this is total stupidity, but I had this idea of not reading any other fiction when attempting to write. I know this may be antithetical to the standard of "read read read, write, read read read" but I kind of wanted to craft something as much my own as possible, have a "sterile" process, untainted by outside influences. 
Within realistic limitsLOL of course there's the years of stuff in my brain already and natural life influences. 


Edited by JJLehto - December 20 2015 at 03:25
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Points: 65248 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2015 at 21:45
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I have found editing to be an integral part of finished work;  when writing my book, it was when I'd change or, more often, remove whole sentences or paragraphs that the manuscript would tighten-up and come together, focusing the text, staying on topic and eliminating extraneous material.  

On the other hand, during the initial act of writing I do enjoy letting go and seeing what happens.  

How much do you value editing?--  especially the serious kind where you remove or alter whole passages that simply don't work or don't relate to the thesis?
Because everything I've written so far has been published on the internet in serial form pretty much as soon as I've finished writing each episode I don't have the luxury of being able to go back to older chapters to edit and revise them so all my editing is done within the confines of the current chapter. Mostly it's the normal stuff like spelling and grammar corrections, then it's fixing plot-holes, ensuring the characters have remained in character, checking continuity with previous scenes and the like. This is where I find 'story boarding' the entire story at the beginning to be of most use, so if I find that I've wandered off-script I can then decide whether the new direction is a keeper and needs to be worked into the story-line, or is extraneous to the plot and needs to be removed. Therefore culling of extraneous material is the next thing, however, if I really like the content of that and don't want to lose it I may try and work it into a later chapter or simply add it as a footnoteš or addendum, which I guess comes under the next category of 'failure to edit'. 

My editing failings are (and I suspect this happens with a lot of self-editors), the reluctance to remove any material; the addition of extra material; and (more often) the complete rewrite of whole chunks of text during the editing stage. I think this is the major difference between a writer who has a publisher and editor working for them and someone who does all of that themselves. I touched on this in my 2-star rated 'Please Self-Release Me' self-release blog - it's having the discipline to be honest with yourself over the quality of what you are producing. You frequently hear people say "Oh, I'm my harshest critic", but when that self-deprecation isn't false modesty it is often used as an excuse for not judiciously editing stuff they know doesn't pass muster.

šI do like sparse use of footnotes in novels.

I get what you mean about being married to a good bit of writing even if it's not fitting the rest of the piece, I had to become much more disciplined about removal.   One does become attached;  your words are like children.

But the level of improvement I found through elimination of passages not directly pertinent to the thesis was a revelation.   It wasn't just about being a disciplined editor, the whole piece would suddenly become much cleaner and readable.   And when finished, if I couldn't find a place for the extra material I'd removed, I left it out.   And am I glad I can do that now without much regret.




Edited by Atavachron - December 19 2015 at 21:48
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 8856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2015 at 14:41
I normally do some editing while I write. Something like a rough mix. If I don't, I lose faith in what I'm doing easily. It can also lead to writer's block, but the opposite can too.

I would say I am my harshest critic, but only when I submit something for critique. I realize a lot of flaws in my work then and the critiques normally confirm them.


Edited by Polymorphia - December 18 2015 at 14:41
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Points: 166178 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2015 at 14:26
Editing is very important for me. The main issues I have with writing are focus and the occasional inability to get what is in my brain to the paper/keyboard fast enough. Both result in botched sentences, incomplete thoughts, unintended gobblygook, and general flotsam in my work. Thus, I usually have 'holes' in my work that I need to go back and fill in with words that fit better/couldn't think of at the time and make sure the sentences work as sentences. I also tend to write best between 12AM and 3AM so sometimes things come out incoherently when read outside of that netherzone region.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2015 at 02:23
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I have found editing to be an integral part of finished work;  when writing my book, it was when I'd change or, more often, remove whole sentences or paragraphs that the manuscript would tighten-up and come together, focusing the text, staying on topic and eliminating extraneous material.  

On the other hand, during the initial act of writing I do enjoy letting go and seeing what happens.  

How much do you value editing?--  especially the serious kind where you remove or alter whole passages that simply don't work or don't relate to the thesis?



 
Because everything I've written so far has been published on the internet in serial form pretty much as soon as I've finished writing each episode I don't have the luxury of being able to go back to older chapters to edit and revise them so all my editing is done within the confines of the current chapter. Mostly it's the normal stuff like spelling and grammar corrections, then it's fixing plot-holes, ensuring the characters have remained in character, checking continuity with previous scenes and the like. This is where I find 'story boarding' the entire story at the beginning to be of most use, so if I find that I've wandered off-script I can then decide whether the new direction is a keeper and needs to be worked into the story-line, or is extraneous to the plot and needs to be removed. Therefore culling of extraneous material is the next thing, however, if I really like the content of that and don't want to lose it I may try and work it into a later chapter or simply add it as a footnoteš or addendum, which I guess comes under the next category of 'failure to edit'. 

My editing failings are (and I suspect this happens with a lot of self-editors), the reluctance to remove any material; the addition of extra material; and (more often) the complete rewrite of whole chunks of text during the editing stage. I think this is the major difference between a writer who has a publisher and editor working for them and someone who does all of that themselves. I touched on this in my 2-star rated 'Please Self-Release Me' self-release blog - it's having the discipline to be honest with yourself over the quality of what you are producing. You frequently hear people say "Oh, I'm my harshest critic", but when that self-deprecation isn't false modesty it is often used as an excuse for not judiciously editing stuff they know doesn't pass muster.







šI do like sparse use of footnotes in novels.


Edited by Dean - December 18 2015 at 02:40
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Points: 65248 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2015 at 22:32
I have found editing to be an integral part of finished work;  when writing my book, it was when I'd change or, more often, remove whole sentences or paragraphs that the manuscript would tighten-up and come together, focusing the text, staying on topic and eliminating extraneous material.  

On the other hand, during the initial act of writing I do enjoy letting go and seeing what happens.  

How much do you value editing?--  especially the serious kind where you remove or alter whole passages that simply don't work or don't relate to the thesis?
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 65248 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2015 at 21:25
^ True, or maybe motivated to write it.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2015 at 03:39
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Charles Bukowski said "No one who could write worth a damn could ever write in peace."

I have found a good deal of truth to that, and though the act of writing in peace is nice the background and experience required for interesting writing will not likely be found in a mountain retreat or lakeside cabin.   It was a difficult and ironic but important lesson for me.  

Thoughts?   Do you believe the living of a challenging, varied and even difficult life is crucial for good writes (fiction or nonfiction), or is that romantic folly?

I don't believe that. what you need is some kind of trauma, but it may very well be in the past. and everyone has had some kind of trauma, so we all are potential writers.

but the trauma only gives you something to write about. you still have to learn how to write


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Points: 65248 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2015 at 21:55
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

It's somewhere in the middle for me.  I can write just fine in a noisy, crowded environment but only as long as there isn't somebody constantly interrupting me and demanding my attention.  It is easier to write in my home with somebody watching TV or some conversations going on in which I am not involved than to focus on execution at the workplace where somebody or the other turns up either with some requirements or just to chat up and thus there is a lot of distraction even though the environment overall is much more peaceful and quiet. So to me, the ability to write uninterrupted and with my undivided attention in that environment is most important.  


Interesting, I know what you mean.
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Points: 65248 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2015 at 21:54
Dickens certainly had a fascinating and difficult life, his family's troubles clearly serving as inspiration for the Marley/Cratchit/Scrooge dynamic, among his many other stories drawn from life in a dense and septic London.




Edited by Atavachron - December 11 2015 at 23:06
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2015 at 09:54
It's somewhere in the middle for me.  I can write just fine in a noisy, crowded environment but only as long as there isn't somebody constantly interrupting me and demanding my attention.  It is easier to write in my home with somebody watching TV or some conversations going on in which I am not involved than to focus on execution at the workplace where somebody or the other turns up either with some requirements or just to chat up and thus there is a lot of distraction even though the environment overall is much more peaceful and quiet. So to me, the ability to write uninterrupted and with my undivided attention in that environment is most important.  
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2015 at 09:42
Having peace to be able to write is not the same as having a peaceful life with no challenging or difficult experiences to draw upon. Unless of course you are writing about the difficulties of writing in a crowded bar, but even there a little imagination can go a long way Wink
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2015 at 08:02
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Charles Bukowski said "No one who could write worth a damn could ever write in peace."

I have found a good deal of truth to that, and though the act of writing in peace is nice the background and experience required for interesting writing will not likely be found in a mountain retreat or lakeside cabin.   It was a difficult and ironic but important lesson for me.  

Thoughts?   Do you believe the living of a challenging, varied and even difficult life is crucial for good writes (fiction or nonfiction), or is that romantic folly?



I don't know if it is crucial but it certainly helps in so far as good writing often draws on one's authentic experiences (rather than bookish knowledge).
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