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Hercules 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
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Points: 7024
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 Posted: April 28 2015 at 14:34 |
 windycrawford wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department. |
And I have to agree with you.....never thought either band was 'proggy' .
But then I don't think Zep or the Who are especially prog related either yet they are listed that way here.
Both bands had some nice tracks but if you made me sit down and listen to one of these bands for any length of time I would go with Queen.
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While you can hardly find any pure prog albums/songs in LedZep catalogue, the band is certainly prog-related with its tricky arrangements, complex riffs and mystical lyricism. The Who, on the other hand, issued "Tommy" and "Quadrophenia" which are not less proggy than "The Wall" for instance. |
Sorry, but I was around in the 70s and 10CC were THE art rock band, and art rock was considered a key part of prog.
Listen to One Night in Paris: it and the whole Original Soundtrack album are both extremely progressive.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: April 28 2015 at 10:01 |
dr wu23 wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department. |
And I have to agree with you.....never thought either band was 'proggy' .
But then I don't think Zep or the Who are especially prog related either yet they are listed that way here.
Both bands had some nice tracks but if you made me sit down and listen to one of these bands for any length of time I would go with Queen.
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While you can hardly find any pure prog albums/songs in LedZep catalogue, the band is certainly prog-related with its tricky arrangements, complex riffs and mystical lyricism. The Who, on the other hand, issued "Tommy" and "Quadrophenia" which are not less proggy than "The Wall" for instance. |
And we are back to the old...what is prog discussion.  Regarding arrangements, riffs, and lyrics there are probably plenty of bands who aren't here as 'prog related' but should be based on that criteria. Zep is huge , famous, and well liked ,,,,prolly why they are here. On the Who...Tommy does have some interesting bits here and there that cross over into prog at times but I don't hear this on Quad which has some orchestration (is that prog.?) But even so does that make what The Who did on those 2 albums prog..? Floyd had many prog and of course space rock elements on many of their earlier albums and always had a history of expanding their musical ideas so I can see why The Wall is included in your comment but as you alluded there is plenty of regular rock on that one. In the end it's matter of opinion....isn't it? |
Cupla things...
Proto Prog and Prog Related are not Prog.
The Who are in Proto-Prog and not Prog Related. The distinction is key otherwise we'd not have two distinctly separate categories. I've no real intention of launching into a defence of a band I don't like very much, or of their inclusion here or of PA's decision to have PR & PP categories at all. However. The main point is they don't have to have created a whole or partial Prog album or even a Prog song to be listed there in that category.
Prog Related is a mess, it always has been and it always will be - why it is a mess is to do with PA's murky history but in recent years the various Admin teams have worked to prevent it becoming even more of a mess, and that means being selective about who else gets added to the current list. In principle they could add hundreds of artists, especially if they blindly follow an IF X THEN Y criteria based on bands who are already listed, but that would result in a bigger PR section than the rest of the PA put together ... which would make PA little better than a second-rate RYM rather than a first-rate Prog site.
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What?
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20631
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Posted: April 28 2015 at 09:07 |
windycrawford wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department. |
And I have to agree with you.....never thought either band was 'proggy' .
But then I don't think Zep or the Who are especially prog related either yet they are listed that way here.
Both bands had some nice tracks but if you made me sit down and listen to one of these bands for any length of time I would go with Queen.
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While you can hardly find any pure prog albums/songs in LedZep catalogue, the band is certainly prog-related with its tricky arrangements, complex riffs and mystical lyricism. The Who, on the other hand, issued "Tommy" and "Quadrophenia" which are not less proggy than "The Wall" for instance. |
And we are back to the old...what is prog discussion. Regarding arrangements, riffs, and lyrics there are probably plenty of bands who aren't here as 'prog related' but should be based on that criteria. Zep is huge , famous, and well liked ,,,,prolly why they are here. On the Who...Tommy does have some interesting bits here and there that cross over into prog at times but I don't hear this on Quad which has some orchestration (is that prog.?) But even so does that make what The Who did on those 2 albums prog..? Floyd had many prog and of course space rock elements on many of their earlier albums and always had a history of expanding their musical ideas so I can see why The Wall is included in your comment but as you alluded there is plenty of regular rock on that one. In the end it's matter of opinion....isn't it?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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windycrawford
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 24 2015
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: April 28 2015 at 02:40 |
dr wu23 wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department. |
And I have to agree with you.....never thought either band was 'proggy' .
But then I don't think Zep or the Who are especially prog related either yet they are listed that way here.
Both bands had some nice tracks but if you made me sit down and listen to one of these bands for any length of time I would go with Queen.
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While you can hardly find any pure prog albums/songs in LedZep catalogue, the band is certainly prog-related with its tricky arrangements, complex riffs and mystical lyricism. The Who, on the other hand, issued "Tommy" and "Quadrophenia" which are not less proggy than "The Wall" for instance.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20631
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 15:21 |
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department. |
And I have to agree with you.....never thought either band was 'proggy' .
But then I don't think Zep or the Who are especially prog related either yet they are listed that way here.
Both bands had some nice tracks but if you made me sit down and listen to one of these bands for any length of time I would go with Queen.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 12:16 |
windycrawford wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department.
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Art rock and prog rock quite close to hand-in-hand, no?
Those who doubt 10cc's "prog credentials" should check out some of the more out-there tracks from Sheet Music, The Original Soundtrack and How Dare You! Pop rock it is, straightforward it often isn't. Those who only know 'em for I'm Not in Love and The Things We Do for Love may be a bit surprised when they hear Une Nuit a Paris or Iceberg. |
Of course, it's impossible to draw a distinct border between prog- and art-rock, everyone's following his own criteria, just like in case with hard-rock and heavy-metal. To my mind, Pink Floyd is the band, standing on the very edge of this border. I hope, this statement explains to you, why I don't consider queen, 10cc, elo and such to belong to prog-related bands. If it doesn't, here are some by book criteria: no philosophical message, no virtuoso-instrumentaion, no tricky structures, almost no lenghty/multi-part compositions. Above written doesn't mean I don't like these bands(actually I do) or I don't like art-rock or I proclaim huge advantage of prog rock over art-rock.
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Ah, the old "what is prog" conversation. I was gonna go there but decided to backspace and type this instead.  |
mature decision  |
windycrawford
Your perception of prog. in my opinion is
quite distorted and MISUNDERSTOOD. No
philosophical message? What does that mean? I for one don’t think lyrics are necessary,
also in philosophical terms I DO NOT
LIKE to be preached upon or hear whatever sermons one has to say, this is just silly and redundant to me, no
virtuoso-instrumentaion how can you say this? No tricky structures, almost no
lenghty/multi-part composition. This is too silly really. Reading all this, I
lost any will to discuss this further, I am lost for words.
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windycrawford
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 24 2015
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 10:03 |
irrelevant wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department.
|
Art rock and prog rock quite close to hand-in-hand, no?
Those who doubt 10cc's "prog credentials" should check out some of the more out-there tracks from Sheet Music, The Original Soundtrack and How Dare You! Pop rock it is, straightforward it often isn't. Those who only know 'em for I'm Not in Love and The Things We Do for Love may be a bit surprised when they hear Une Nuit a Paris or Iceberg. |
Of course, it's impossible to draw a distinct border between prog- and art-rock, everyone's following his own criteria, just like in case with hard-rock and heavy-metal. To my mind, Pink Floyd is the band, standing on the very edge of this border. I hope, this statement explains to you, why I don't consider queen, 10cc, elo and such to belong to prog-related bands. If it doesn't, here are some by book criteria: no philosophical message, no virtuoso-instrumentaion, no tricky structures, almost no lenghty/multi-part compositions. Above written doesn't mean I don't like these bands(actually I do) or I don't like art-rock or I proclaim huge advantage of prog rock over art-rock.
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Ah, the old "what is prog" conversation. I was gonna go there but decided to backspace and type this instead. |
mature decision
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irrelevant
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 07 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 13382
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 09:59 |
windycrawford wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department.
|
Art rock and prog rock quite close to hand-in-hand, no?
Those who doubt 10cc's "prog credentials" should check out some of the more out-there tracks from Sheet Music, The Original Soundtrack and How Dare You! Pop rock it is, straightforward it often isn't. Those who only know 'em for I'm Not in Love and The Things We Do for Love may be a bit surprised when they hear Une Nuit a Paris or Iceberg. |
Of course, it's impossible to draw a distinct border between prog- and art-rock, everyone's following his own criteria, just like in case with hard-rock and heavy-metal. To my mind, Pink Floyd is the band, standing on the very edge of this border. I hope, this statement explains to you, why I don't consider queen, 10cc, elo and such to belong to prog-related bands. If it doesn't, here are some by book criteria: no philosophical message, no virtuoso-instrumentaion, no tricky structures, almost no lenghty/multi-part compositions. Above written doesn't mean I don't like these bands(actually I do) or I don't like art-rock or I proclaim huge advantage of prog rock over art-rock.
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Ah, the old "what is prog" conversation. I was gonna go there but decided to backspace and type this instead.
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windycrawford
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 24 2015
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 09:28 |
irrelevant wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department.
|
Art rock and prog rock quite close to hand-in-hand, no?
Those who doubt 10cc's "prog credentials" should check out some of the more out-there tracks from Sheet Music, The Original Soundtrack and How Dare You! Pop rock it is, straightforward it often isn't. Those who only know 'em for I'm Not in Love and The Things We Do for Love may be a bit surprised when they hear Une Nuit a Paris or Iceberg. |
Of course, it's impossible to draw a distinct border between prog- and art-rock, everyone's following his own criteria, just like in case with hard-rock and heavy-metal. To my mind, Pink Floyd is the band, standing on the very edge of this border. I hope, this statement explains to you, why I don't consider queen, 10cc, elo and such to belong to prog-related bands. If it doesn't, here are some by book criteria: no philosophical message, no virtuoso-instrumentaion, no tricky structures, almost no lenghty/multi-part compositions. Above written doesn't mean I don't like these bands(actually I do) or I don't like art-rock or I proclaim huge advantage of prog rock over art-rock.
Edited by windycrawford - April 27 2015 at 09:29
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irrelevant
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 07 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 13382
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 09:12 |
Kati wrote:
irrelevant wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department.
|
Art rock and prog rock quite close to hand-in-hand, no?
Those who doubt 10cc's "prog credentials" should check out some of the more out-there tracks from Sheet Music, The Original Soundtrack and How Dare You! Pop rock it is, straightforward it often isn't. Those who only know 'em for I'm Not in Love and The Things We Do for Love may be a bit surprised when they hear Une Nuit a Paris or Iceberg. |
I love what you said, Irrelevant  Indeed, even Bowie early albums are classified as art rock however they too are heave prog orientated.  A big hug to you,  |
I'm like a broken record when talking about 10cc here Thankyou
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 09:03 |
irrelevant wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department.
|
Art rock and prog rock quite close to hand-in-hand, no?
Those who doubt 10cc's "prog credentials" should check out some of the more out-there tracks from Sheet Music, The Original Soundtrack and How Dare You! Pop rock it is, straightforward it often isn't. Those who only know 'em for I'm Not in Love and The Things We Do for Love may be a bit surprised when they hear Une Nuit a Paris or Iceberg. |
I love what you said, Irrelevant Indeed, even Bowie early albums are classified as art rock however they too are heave prog orientated. A big hug to you,
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irrelevant
Collaborator
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Joined: March 07 2010
Location: Australia
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Points: 13382
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 08:32 |
windycrawford wrote:
I don't think, any of these two bands are prog-related. Queen is almost the definition of art-rock and 10cc is definitely in pop-rock department.
|
Art rock and prog rock quite close to hand-in-hand, no?
Those who doubt 10cc's "prog credentials" should check out some of the more out-there tracks from Sheet Music, The Original Soundtrack and How Dare You! Pop rock it is, straightforward it often isn't. Those who only know 'em for I'm Not in Love and The Things We Do for Love may be a bit surprised when they hear Une Nuit a Paris or Iceberg.
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 08:31 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 08:24 |
 mum diddley washing 
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What?
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 07:56 |
windycrawford wrote:
Kati wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
It's vocal gimmicks Im talking about |
Vocals gimmicks? I don't what you mean with this? |
vocal gimmicks—nonsensical vowels, syllables, and sounds—to get songs stuck in your head. uh ah yeah lalala
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Oh ha ok to me this is a plus, brilliant! The Beatles who started this too, either with vocal harmonies or just silly lyrics. Infact most memorable songs in history are like that. 
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windycrawford
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 24 2015
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 07:51 |
Kati wrote:
windycrawford wrote:
It's vocal gimmicks Im talking about |
Vocals gimmicks? I don't what you mean with this? |
vocal gimmicks—nonsensical vowels, syllables, and sounds—to get songs stuck in your head. uh ah yeah lalala
Edited by windycrawford - April 27 2015 at 07:51
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 07:47 |
windycrawford wrote:
It's vocal gimmicks Im talking about |
Vocals gimmicks? I don't what you mean with this?
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windycrawford
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 24 2015
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 07:45 |
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It's vocal gimmicks Im talking about
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 07:42 |
windycrawford wrote:
I suppose, those 'snobs' who rant against Queen don't mean band's poor musicianship, songwriting etc. The main problem with Queen actually is frequent crowd-oriented arena-rock sound and sometimes Freddy goes overboard with gimmicks, so that sincerety is questionable. But of course, overall it is unique band in it's synthesis of opera and heavy metal, tons of great melodies and erm.. The Voice |
I am confused here  . Queen had prog elements but now I quote you: "The main problem with Queen actually is frequent crowd-oriented arena-rock sound and sometimes Freddy goes overboard with gimmicks, so that sincerety is questionable. But of course, overall it is unique band in it's synthesis of opera and heavy metal, tons of great melodies and erm..." Peter Gabriel during Genesis among other performances performed wearing a red dress while wearing a fox on his head. Bowie ok nevermind he is just hot no matter what. I see nothing wrong with gimmicks inc. Rick Wakeman's red cape. 
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windycrawford
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Joined: April 24 2015
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: April 27 2015 at 07:34 |
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I suppose, those 'snobs' who rant against Queen don't mean band's poor musicianship, songwriting etc. The main problem with Queen actually is frequent crowd-oriented arena-rock sound and sometimes Freddy goes overboard with gimmicks, so that sincerety is questionable. But of course, overall it is unique band in it's synthesis of opera and heavy metal, tons of great melodies and erm.. The Voice
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10cc or Queen
