The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread

After witnessing the public debates here in Norway for the last decade or so, I'm sorry to say that I have atheists up my throat. In my country they're so f**king fundamental that even conservative Muslims come across as all encompassing liberals in comparison....

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Dean wrote:     I know you said that, unlike another person who's new posts I rather ignore.

What, so the rest of us have to prove some kind of intellectual prowess to you?  Or some kind of token of being part of the "in" crowd at progarchives?   How's that superiority/god complex working out for ya?  alienate people much?   



































Funny how it always devolves into two guys who float to the top (supposedly), bashing at each other in some eternal battle of wits.... while the rest are treated as vultures to pick at the scraps.... why not validate everyone's arguments?  Either way, this is meant to be a pro-atheist/agnostic thread... or so I thought.  It's not an exclusive club, just like Christianity should not be exclusive....  but really shouldn't the Christian and Atheist threads maintain a certain bit of separation?






Edited by avalanchemaster - June 06 2009 at 21:10

Dean wrote: avalanchemaster wrote: Oh mighty internet, what would you be if not a verbal masturbation-fest and ego-struggle cage-match? f**k YOU!  I'm RIGHT!  You are the one that is wrong!   some good reading here though.... Was that directed at me?

Nope.  All of us.  If you take a step back, at times the whole online debating thing can be quite absurd. 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: stonebeard wrote: I hope you don't believe these are official in any way. An atheist has no dogma whatsoever, and in my opinion doesn't really have any basis for holding any certain beliefs, though I also believe no religious person has any valid basis for believing anything for certain either: religious beliefs are an illusion of truth, as is most everything I can think of. This is a deeply philosophical thing which I can expan upon... They are atheists and they believe in this...What makes your position correct and their's wrong? Part of the schism? Now surely you're kidding me? There is no they. There are organizations but no atheist has any creedence to speak to any other atheist about anything concerning his beliefs in regard to an "atheist dogma" or whatever, because there is no atheist dogma. It is not a religion, there is no schism, there is no secret handshake.   The only things that make Jedi different from any other long established religion is that they have thousands of years of time on their side and happened to have been formed thinking they were correct. That doesn't mean any "real" religions are any more true. Also, having years for theologians to try to justify their frankly out-of-this-world beliefs does not really add creedence to their arguments to me anyway. The amount of ink poured over trying to make sense of the Trinity is in itself ludicrous. Everybody knows Jedis a creation of Geoerge Lucas, even you.   Plus you don't need to attack, in only proves the lack of arguments, I haven't said a word that doesn't imply respect for all beliefs or disbeliefs, but you are calling our faith ludicrous, you'd better moderate yourself, you are not the same respectful Stonebeard we all knew.   Iván.   But who's to say Lucas wasn't divinely inspired...   Oh I have arguments, but I do not have much respect for theologians who make mental gymnastics to try and make sense of a fable (true or otherwise, and don't mistake my terminology for intentional depreciation to you personally), when they could take the most obvious thing to me, which seems to be naturalism.

avalanchemaster wrote: Oh mighty internet, what would you be if not a verbal masturbation-fest and ego-struggle cage-match? f**k YOU!  I'm RIGHT!  You are the one that is wrong!   some good reading here though....

Sean Trane wrote:   Stonie, although we're fighting on the same side on this issue, can I ask you to remain civil.... There are things that are difficult to comprehend for religiouss people regarding atheism.... and we ourselves have difficulty explaining precisely what we mean, preciselt because we don't have general plitical lines  and don't hold Papal concialbuls in the .Vatican......   Concialbuls is a strong word if it's the translation of "Concialibulos" (I believe the word doesn't exist in English) which is a secret and illegal reunion organized to hide something, the catholic Church doesn't have that practices any more, they did in dark ages but no longer.    Please don't be patronizing, we are not  Atheists and according to you naive people who believe in mythology, but not ignorants.   Ivàn and most religious try to tjhink via analogy and see how our completely free thinking can fit into what they know MUST be a dogma or doctrine. This is why they think atheism is a believing matter, when it's simply not   Sean, you must admit that not all the atheists are free thinkers, Atheists of America or Atheist Alliance International  for example, have an almost religious structure, surely they don't represent all Atheists, but  a good part of them yes, as a fact many of this sites clearly express they believe there is no God and some of them accept to be Positive atheists.   I believe you can't ignore them     In another debate , Ivàn cannot comprehend that free masons are not atheists (everyone in atheism knows that catholics, Jews and Muslims (even Amish if they wish it) are welcome in the temples of Free Masonry, as long as they leave their religions outside the doors.    I believe you're geting confused Sean, my grandfather was founder of the Grand Mason Temple of Iquitos and he was a Catholic, despite that according to the Church, he was excomunicated until 1974, when Pope Paul VI rescinded the prior Bulls allowing Catholics to be Masons.   So hardly i could consider tthe Masons Atheists exclusively (There are mason Atheists also Catholic)    Precisely in order not to dispute about these matters..... but that's what irritates the clergies.... This is the princile of laïcity and separation ofb the churches from power...... something rendered difficult for their believers, precisely because THE LAST THING the churches want to do is stay away from politics...... since we alll know that religion is more about politics than spriritualism   You believe Sean, many priests like Ernesto Cardenal have been at the border of excomunication for having a political positon......The last thing te Catholic Church wants is to be mixed in politics, prove of that is their resignation to be part of the UN, despite the Vatican State has the right to be a member as any soberaign state   Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Thanks Dean for a good and clean debate

"Well , where is God?", said Mrs. Coulter, "If he's alive?"  "And why doesn't he speak anymore?  At the beginning of the world, God walked in the garden and spoke with Adam and Eve.  Then he began to withdraw, and forbade Moses to look at his face.  Later, in the time of Daniel, he was aged--he was The Ancient of Days.  Where is he now?  Is he still alive, at some inconceivable age, decrepit and demented, unable to think or act or speak and unable to die, a rotten hulk?  And if that is his condition, Wouldn't it be the most merciful thing, the truest proof of our love for God, to seek him out and give him the gift of death?"

(Philip Pullman; His Dark Materials trilogy; book 3; The Amber Spyglass.... quite easily the best adolescent's reader that utilizes christian ideas to take a different look at the possibility of a different reality besides a Pro-God, Pro-Christian dogma.  Amazing read!)

I was raised Mormon- a Cult if there ever was one...and a big one at that.  I do not care about other's beliefs and these days I tend to stray far from this sort of discussion, because you get people that are far too passionate about their own SUBJECTIVE beliefs, and start debating them feverishly, as if their very salvation/soul depended on converting everyone.  Utter bullsh*t.  Leave it alone for people to discover their beliefs on their own.  If they cannot discover their own subjective truth, well then they may be candidates for the Darwin Awards, dying off and leaving the more fit to survive into the future.

But since we are asking, let me be passionate for a moment:

In the bible, we are made to think that man was created in God's image.  I think they got it backwards;  God was created in man's image.  It is the ultimate testament of existential anxiety and grief.  We need so much to not feel isolated and alienated, that we create fantasies and fairytales (whose to say that in another 1000 years, they won't be worshipping Hairy Potter?) and allegories to teach us to come together and not be so frightened of some big gaping UNIDENTIFIED hole at the end of our lives.  That's nice if you believe in heaven, but show me the proof either way;  existence/non-existence in God/Satan/Heaven/Hell...... and I will show you a man/woman who can train themselves to believe anything, so long as it ails their suffering and anxiety, ultimately pushing doubt and fear away in a huge (possibly delusional) wave.  I may be delusional too, in many of your minds, but I at least like to think that I try to face my own truth head on... without the aid of someone else's ideals.  Beliefs can be dangerous either way, because when you filter everything through a binary system of beliefs, there is no room for debate/doubt.  He who doubts is shunned.  In our pro-Christian nation of America; there is only one "Accepted" religious belief system; and that is judeo-christian/Puritanical systems.  We go to war in the name of God.(the Horror!)  We print dollar bills in the name of God.  We erect our monuments to show God what good we have done in his name.  Everything for a THEN and THERE belief system.... the afterlife, supposing one acted good in the forelife, is assumed as a reward granted upon the completion of requisite actions.  (that's not to say that morals are bad)  How sad that people focus more on death and the afterlife more than the HERE AND NOW.  Pro-war/anti-abortion seems to be the order of the day for the fundamentalist, "religious right" (the supposed "Moral Majority"- as if a majority proves righteousness- what of lynchmobs and crowds of riotous persons?   Are they "right" too?  "Insanity in individuals is rare, but in groups, epochs and nations- it is the rule"- Nietzsche)  I for one am disgusted by the tyrannical and fascistic methods that the CHURCH (as it were- all organized religion- even those that invert christianity) have committed many atrocities and will continue to, because they belief as a gestalt unit, that they are right beyond reasonable doubt---- BECAUSE GOD SAID SO.  That's f**king scary. 

In the end, I would much rather just let people believe what they want to (why not the Flying Spaghetti Monster?  Or the Church of the Subgenius?)... as long as it does not encroach on my rights and liberties to lead my life as I see fit, in turn harming nobody else, (unless of course it is a matter of life and death- kill or be killed.... we are all just supposedly aware animals anyway, right?)

I hope I have not necessarily converted people, but merely shared my experience with you guys.  I have read Dawkins' The God Delusion- and he asks the same questions;  Proof of existence or non-existence.... there is none (proof- there is only faith- which can be defined as "belief in the face of counter-evidence") either way.  That in my mind makes Agnosticism fit confortable in my mind as a very logical answer to that gnawing question of God.

Now be good little boys and girls and quit arguing over Subjective (non-factual) (personal) beliefs! 


Edited by avalanchemaster - June 06 2009 at 19:13

Finnforest wrote: Ha, we haven't agreed on much lately Hugues, but I'm with you on that.

We've only one disagreement..... albeit, it's a biggie

No problem Deathrabbit, it's a good trainning for the Court.