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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:27
For respect to Dean I will reply his post before I leave.
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Well, that's the last time I try and inject some tongue in cheek humour into this particular discussion Tongue
 
LOL Don't worry about that,
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

[hahaha! not the most appropriate choice of expletive in this instance, and certainly not one that would compell me to visit those sites Wink 
 
Anyhow, I have read several sites like them and what they state is their opinion in issolation of all other athiests. They did not canvas all athiests to obtain a consensus of opinion and no athiest has to agree to those opinions in order to be an athiest.
 
That's why i said SOME in capital letters, there are SOME atheists doing evangelism as there are SOME Christian, denominations making evangelism, seems we agree in this point also.
 
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

You are presenting all these minority sites, and this one in particular as universally accepted by all atheists. Atheists who post on this site has clear stated otherwise. The fact that I ridicule those "commandments" is a reflection of my opinion of them, nothing more nothing less. Do you seriously believe that those ten statements are tenets that all atheists support? Or could support?
 
As to Strong/Weak/Possitive/Negative atheism, I dispute them, as do others:
Originally posted by wiki, in very bad English wiki, in very bad English wrote:

The validity of this categorisation is disputed, however, and a few prominent atheists such as Richard Dawkins avoid it.
 
Not all, but some do the problem is that when people refer to christianity they have a vision of two guys knocking at your door at 6 am to sell you salvation, some do this, and it's wrong, I'm the fiorst one who has saidfthis several times. Some atheists act in similar way.
 
But as some dispute his categorization, others believe in it and there lies the problem....Or the schism LOL
 
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Not true, you would like there to be perhaps, but there is no organisation to create schism within - they are not factions, but seperate and unconnected opinions that some people have decided to categorise for their own ends. They are not clubs that you can chose to join or sides that you can chose to take, they are only opinions that you can either agree or disagree with.
 
Well Dean, I found several organizations with dfferent perspectives, some even not compatible, so it's reasonable to believe there's some sort of schism.
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

So if I have no belief system I am not allowed to call myself an atheist? Okay, I am not an atheist, I just don't have a religion or belief system that requires a supernatural figure head.
 
Again you are changing my words, i say there's a common dogma in atheism, and it's "There's no God" if you don't accept that dogma (And for that reason believe in some divinity), then you can't be an atheist by definition.
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Love is a human characteristic, as is compassion, the use of "jealous" in the scriptures was not to denote "envy", but to show "love" - a god that loves his people so much that he would be jealous if they worshipped any gods as well as him. That is not the same as being envious of the other gods. As I said - it was written to dissuade the Israelites from turning to the polytheistic ways of their neighbours.
 
Then we agree, this are the beliefs or the interests of the Israelites that were added to the Old testament as if it was the word of God.
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

But that is beside the point, you have agreed with the point that began this particular branch of discussion, which was to demonstrate that christians know that other gods do not exist without having to prove belief that they do not exist: " of other Gods that don't exist"
 
Of course we have dogmas, that's a characteristic of a religion.
 
Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

The phrase "I am a jealous god, worship no other god but me", which is the specific phrase that I stated that caused you to question the use of the word "jealous" I made no mention of Abraham in connection with that word and specifically said it was used during the exile of the Israelites in Egypt.
 
I believe the jealous quotation came after, but doesn't matter we were talking about different quotes.
 
That's all for me in his thread
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 06 2009 at 22:30
            
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I use Jesus f**king Christ!
God-f**king-Dammit!

not so weird that these supposed slurs/sins have become part of the vernacular!

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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:22
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SergiUriah SergiUriah wrote:

Do atheists say: "Oh, my God!"?, or that exclamation set phrase is prohibited for them?

I actually avoid it and other forms of "religious swearing" as best I can. Not because I want to avoid offending religious people, or because I am still fearful of breaking the third commandment after being a christian for the first thirty+ years of my life, but simply because it has no meaning for me.


That's probably the reason why I use it so much LOL


Jesus-f**king-christ is one that I often forget to censor



LOL

I use that one too Mike, along with God-f******-Dammit, when I stub my toe or something.....you have to wonder where those combinations come from. 


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Points: 730 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:21
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by avalanchemaster avalanchemaster wrote:

 
There is no ONE universal truth that suits all people. 
 
That's why in any civilized country there is freedom to believe in what you want or not to believe.
 
That's why there are about 30,000 Christian denominations alone and countless religions.
 
That's why there's a separation between Church and state in most countries supported by most religions.
 
This is my last post in this thread because it seems that many don't like a debate.
 
Iván


Well there is certainly NO SUCH THING as separation of church and state in the U.S., that is a myth if I ever heard one.  The Right wing aligning itself with the religious right back in the fifties pretty much guaranteed that there would never be a separation, not to mention that the subject of Abortion is a platform utilized and twisted to pull votes (which tends to be a religious debate, even though it should be a civil debate/right).   The fact that the U.S. dollar has "in god we trust" on it, denies separation of church and state.... I could go on, but you get the drift....  Wink

I don't mind debate.  But it is one thing to argue and another to go into a thread knowing that most of the people will be opposed to you;  (I don't go into the Chritianity thread for this very reason) It's one thing to "preach to the choir" and another to do missionary work in a foreign land that may or may not be full of godless cannibals!  Tongue

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Points: 16310 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:20
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by avalanchemaster avalanchemaster wrote:

 
There is no ONE universal truth that suits all people. 
 
That's why in any civilized country there is freedom to believe in what you want or not to believe.
 
That's why there are about 30,000 Christian denominations alone and countless religions.
 
That's why there's a separation between Church and state in most countries supported by most religions.
 
This is my last post in this thread because it seems that many don't like a debate.
 
Iván

Yes, but in many countries, religion is still in a special place. Religious institutions are generally not taxed. Religion is still used to get the votes and support of the people. Religious groups try to push the separation of church and state, just look at California and the Prop 8 fiasco.

   This thread wasn't about debating the existence of God. It was about caused a person to be an atheist and issues regarding atheism.
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Points: 16111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SergiUriah SergiUriah wrote:

Do atheists say: "Oh, my God!"?, or that exclamation set phrase is prohibited for them?

I actually avoid it and other forms of "religious swearing" as best I can. Not because I want to avoid offending religious people, or because I am still fearful of breaking the third commandment after being a christian for the first thirty+ years of my life, but simply because it has no meaning for me.


That's probably the reason why I use it so much LOL


Jesus-f**king-christ is one that I often forget to censor
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:12
Originally posted by SergiUriah SergiUriah wrote:

Do atheists say: "Oh, my God!"?, or that exclamation set phrase is prohibited for them?

I actually avoid it and other forms of "religious swearing" as best I can. Not because I want to avoid offending religious people, or because I am still fearful of breaking the third commandment after being a christian for the first thirty+ years of my life, but simply because it has no meaning for me.
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Praise Lord I  say to thee, put yer money in my back pocket, I guarantee to set you free....
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:04
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Yep - I'm ignoring all of them loonies - just saying what this atheist thinks Tongue. But seriously - I believe that when your average atheist (who to be honest, doesn't give this stuff that much thought) says they don't believe in god or that they don't believe in the existance of god it is primarily the "belief" that they are denying - they specifically say "I do not believe"
 
Nice play of words Dean,. it's fantastic and perfect for a lawyer on a trial. calling them loonies because you don't agree with them, doesn't make them loonies.
 
Well, that's the last time I try and inject some tongue in cheek humour into this particular discussion Tongue
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

 
I do believe that believe is the wrong word in this case but I don't believe there is an adequate word to replace it, believe me. You are making out atheism to be a belief system and that would be unacceptable to an atheist. I maintain that gods are the creation of man - that is not a belief - that is my assessment of the (written) evidence.
 
For God's sake I read sites where they clearly state they believe there isw no God. 
 
hahaha! not the most appropriate choice of expletive in this instance, and certainly not one that would compell me to visit those sites Wink 
 
Anyhow, I have read several sites like them and what they state is their opinion in issolation of all other athiests. They did not canvas all athiests to obtain a consensus of opinion and no athiest has to agree to those opinions in order to be an athiest.
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

Hmm - you've shown that before and I didn't laugh then either, though most of those "commandments" are laughable. The guy is obviously full of good intentions but he is not speaking for (using your statistics) the 1 billion atheists and agnostics present in the world today - Alexia site traffic for that site suggests that less than 0.001% of atheists have even seen it - compare that to the percentage of christians and non christians who are aware of the 10 (or 15 Wink) commandments of Exodus (or the percentage of christians who regularily break at least one of them every day).
 
So the ones who talk about Positive Atheism are loonies, this guys also, wow, you are getting closer to Fundamentalists at every step, next time you will say that only your view of Atheism is cotrrect. Wink
 
You are presenting all these minority sites, and this one in particular as universally accepted by all atheists. Atheists who post on this site has clear stated otherwise. The fact that I ridicule those "commandments" is a reflection of my opinion of them, nothing more nothing less. Do you seriously believe that those ten statements are tenets that all atheists support? Or could support?
 
As to Strong/Weak/Possitive/Negative atheism, I dispute them, as do others:
Originally posted by wiki, in very bad English wiki, in very bad English wrote:

The validity of this categorisation is disputed, however, and a few prominent atheists such as Richard Dawkins avoid it.
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

In fact as an atheist I find it embarrassing that the guy should even attempt to mirror the Decalogue and then struggle to make a full ten. I can make nine perfectly acceptable non-religious commandments just by choosing from those listed in Exodus Ch.20 - nine that I have adhered to my whole life so far, but my adherence to them does not make it a religious system, or make me a believer in any religious system.
 
But Dean, I know you don't agree with them, but they are part of he Atheists, the Positiove Atheists also, there are factions and schisms as in any Church. Wink
 
Not true, you would like there to be perhaps, but there is no organisation to create schism within - they are not factions, but seperate and unconnected opinions that some people have decided to categorise for their own ends. They are not clubs that you can chose to join or sides that you can chose to take, they are only opinions that you can either agree or disagree with.
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

A religious system needs a little more than a few ill-conceived statements on a random website and atheism does not need them at all. Atheism does not need to be a system, there is no dogma - it is simply a statement, an affirmation, nothing else is necessary, you don't have to believe anything - that's kind of the point. For a religion that is not enough - you cannot be a christian by just saying that you are, you cannot be a christian just by going to church every Sunday and saying a few prayers.
 
That's way I said ALMOST religious STRUCTURE.
 
You say there is no dogma, i say there is all of the Atheists share a comonm dogma and that is God doesn't exist, and why is it Dogma?
 
Because is an stablished opinion without which you are not Atheist, as you are not a Christian if you don't believe in the divinity of Christ.
 
 
So if I have no belief system I am not allowed to call myself an atheist? Okay, I am not an atheist, I just don't have a religion or belief system that requires a supernatural figure head.
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

It is not my claim - I just quoted Exodus - in fact the phrase "jealous god" appears many times in the old testament (Exodus, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Ezekiel and Nahum). I put no interpretation on that phrase other than equating jealousy with displeasure. Applying any human emotion to a diety is probably unwise, but there is such a limited vocabulary we can use in these cases - however I am sure that the scripture writers chose their words very carefully. The meaning of the word "Jealous" was not lost or hidden to the ancient Israelites.
 
The perspective of early israelites assignig human characteristics to God doesn't imply he really has thse characteriostics, God can't be jealous, he can't envy anything because he's almighty according to our beliefs, much less he can be jealous of other Gopds that don't exist.
 
 
Love is a human characteristic, as is compassion, the use of "jealous" in the scriptures was not to denote "envy", but to show "love" - a god that loves his people so much that he would be jealous if they worshipped any gods as well as him. That is not the same as being envious of the other gods. As I said - it was written to dissuade the Israelites from turning to the polytheistic ways of their neighbours.
 
But that is beside the point, you have agreed with the point that began this particular branch of discussion, which was to demonstrate that christians know that other gods do not exist without having to prove belief that they do not exist: " of other Gopds that don't exist"
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

However, that is not particularily relevant becase the phrase was spoken to Moses (Exodus) not Abraham (Genesis) and Moses was an educated man and I do expect his language to be coherent and well chosen
 
What phrase? I was referring to the moment when God reveals himself to Abraham (Genesis Chapters 12 and forward), and even when talking about Moses, he was a educated man for the era, but hardly would had understood many things we do now.
 
 
The phrase "I am a jealous god, worship no other god but me", which is the specific phrase that I stated that caused you to question the use of the word "jealous" I made no mention of Abraham in connection with that word and specifically said it was used during the exile of the Israelites in Egypt.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:59
Originally posted by avalanchemaster avalanchemaster wrote:

 
There is no ONE universal truth that suits all people. 
 
That's why in any civilized country there is freedom to believe in what you want or not to believe.
 
That's why there are about 30,000 Christian denominations alone and countless religions.
 
That's why there's a separation between Church and state in most countries supported by most religions.
 
This is my last post in this thread because it seems that many don't like a debate.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:56
Originally posted by avalanchemaster avalanchemaster wrote:

Originally posted by MovingPictures07 MovingPictures07 wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Jedi is a religion these days.




I find it funny that the atheists opened this discussion as a topic to chat and the religious folk have crusaded our asses and turned it into a huge debate. You guys are silly with your opinions which you hold as fact - at least we don't go door to door saying, "hi, have you found faith in life and no longer have need for an idol which to fear and give thanks to? Let me tell you about Atheism."


Well, Jedi IS a religion to some people. In fact, according to the 2001 census Jedi is the 4th largest religion in England and Wales!




That's nuts. LOL



yep.  But it also serves the argument that any religion can be nuts.  The majority of them can be based on good intentions, it is when these good intentions begin to poison the majority of secular life that they become absurd and out of control.  There is no ONE universal truth that suits all people.  That is the danger of these beliefs.... and the nature of beliefs is that they are personal (or at least should be), and yet people make money and ruin lives over these beliefs!!!!  Hello?  Am I the only one that sees the corruption here?  (But you could argue that humans, by their very nature; especially in a post-modern capitalistic society, are corrupt.)


You're not the only one; I agree with that.
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Points: 730 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:52
Originally posted by MovingPictures07 MovingPictures07 wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Jedi is a religion these days.




I find it funny that the atheists opened this discussion as a topic to chat and the religious folk have crusaded our asses and turned it into a huge debate. You guys are silly with your opinions which you hold as fact - at least we don't go door to door saying, "hi, have you found faith in life and no longer have need for an idol which to fear and give thanks to? Let me tell you about Atheism."


Well, Jedi IS a religion to some people. In fact, according to the 2001 census Jedi is the 4th largest religion in England and Wales!




That's nuts. LOL



yep.  But it also serves the argument that any religion can be nuts.  The majority of them can be based on good intentions, it is when these good intentions begin to poison the majority of secular life that they become absurd and out of control.  There is no ONE universal truth that suits all people.  That is the danger of these beliefs.... and the nature of beliefs is that they are personal (or at least should be), and yet people make money and ruin lives over these beliefs!!!!  Hello?  Am I the only one that sees the corruption here?  (But you could argue that humans, by their very nature; especially in a post-modern capitalistic society, are corrupt.)

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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:43
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Jedi is a religion these days.




I find it funny that the atheists opened this discussion as a topic to chat and the religious folk have crusaded our asses and turned it into a huge debate. You guys are silly with your opinions which you hold as fact - at least we don't go door to door saying, "hi, have you found faith in life and no longer have need for an idol which to fear and give thanks to? Let me tell you about Atheism."


Well, Jedi IS a religion to some people. In fact, according to the 2001 census Jedi is the 4th largest religion in England and Wales!




That's nuts. LOL
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:42
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

I don't know what that was supposed to mean... but you certainly are kicking down our door and holding crosses high.
 
For God's sake, i had left this thread but was directly mentioned by Stonebeard yesterday, so i came back.
 
I'm not trying to convince anybody to follow a determined faith, I couldn't care less about that, but I do believe some atheists are doing acts similar to evangelism...That's all.
 
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:42
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by MovingPictures07 MovingPictures07 wrote:



Is atheism or agnosticism a religion then?

By that definition, no.
 
Never said it was, I said that some Attheists do a form of evangelism and that SOME atheist organizations have a structure similar to a religion.
 
Would be absurd to say it's a religion.
 
Iván


Oh, I never said you said it was universally; I was just wondering what you thought about it.

I agree that some atheist people and organizations can be just as pushy as religious organizations; it really just comes down to an individual basis. In general though, I tend to find more pushy religious organizations than atheist ones.

Not sure that means anything significant.
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Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Jedi is a religion these days.




I find it funny that the atheists opened this discussion as a topic to chat and the religious folk have crusaded our asses and turned it into a huge debate. You guys are silly with your opinions which you hold as fact - at least we don't go door to door saying, "hi, have you found faith in life and no longer have need for an idol which to fear and give thanks to? Let me tell you about Atheism."


Well, Jedi IS a religion to some people. In fact, according to the 2001 census Jedi is the 4th largest religion in England and Wales!

Now look people. I think both sides need to stick to their respective threads. Discussion IS great, but clearly we are having a problem keeping it as just a discussion. I see people bashing atheism, saying Buddhism is not a religion, saying those who believe in God have "crusaded" this thread.
Honestly, it's getting pretty tense in here. It's why past debate now, just getting nasty.




Edited by JJLehto - June 06 2009 at 21:44
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Originally posted by MovingPictures07 MovingPictures07 wrote:



Is atheism or agnosticism a religion then?

By that definition, no.
 
Never said it was, I said that some Attheists do a form of evangelism and that SOME atheist organizations have a structure similar to a religion.
 
Would be absurd to say it's a religion.
 
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Points: 730 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:39
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

I don't know what that was supposed to mean... but you certainly are kicking down our door and holding crosses high.


fascists don't know their own contradictions, they bask in them though!

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Points: 730 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:38
Originally posted by MovingPictures07 MovingPictures07 wrote:

Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Jedi is a religion these days.




I find it funny that the atheists opened this discussion as a topic to chat and the religious folk have crusaded our asses and turned it into a huge debate. You guys are silly with your opinions which you hold as fact - at least we don't go door to door saying, "hi, have you found faith in life and no longer have need for an idol which to fear and give thanks to? Let me tell you about Atheism."



Thumbs Up



I know what you mean.

This thread should return to what T originally intended it to be.



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Points: 16111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 21:38
 @ Ivan: I don't know what that was supposed to mean... but you certainly are kicking down our door and holding crosses high.

Edited by King By-Tor - June 06 2009 at 21:41
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