Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die! - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Gamemako

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Posted: January 20 2012 at 16:43

manofmystery wrote:

For those posters here that never grasped the difference between capitalism and our current system or who want to paint our current system as capitalism in order to confuse the first group:

-Starts with an opinion backed by no facts. Not that it can't be defended, but starting with a bold statement and backing it with no facts whatsoever does not an effective proposition make.
-Point 1: Well, duh. Everyone who has taken high-school economics should know that. Then again, we have an entire political system based on screwing that up, but that is neither here nor there.
-Point 2: That's only correct following Chicago economics. It's wrong because people are not rational. In theory, David Koch (has a chemical engineering degree from MIT) should produce 100,000 times as much as me. Somehow, I doubt he could replace the four engineers in our department (when I worked for him). We see CEOs earn tens of millions of dollars despite being ineffectual because they are shielded from the market, which should not be possible in a rationalist economic model.
-Point 3: My head may implode. He first suggests that the market wasn't totally free, so capitalism wasn't to blame. This is equivalent to saying that the dam didn't break because of the water because some of the water went over the dam. Typical response from a rationalist economist, and completely silly. He's absolutely right that government policy really screwed the pooch (I still don't understand how people defend subsidizing mortgages with a longer life than the asset). However, rational people would never have taken the risks which occurred even in the presence of government intervention. His laying of blame is moot: the economic model on which he bases his response suggests that the crisis could not have happened at all, which makes it pretty useless for analyzing the cause of the crisis.

*Sigh*. Ideologues.

Hail Eris!

horsewithteeth11 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 20 2012 at 16:10

Second one is an oldie but goodie (for me anyway). I'm about halfway through the first and so far it's very insightful. A lot more people need to see both of them.

Dudemanguy View Drop Down

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Posted: January 20 2012 at 16:07

Agreed, most people don't realize that we actually have corporatism in the States not capitalism.

Finnforest View Drop Down

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Posted: January 20 2012 at 16:00

Nice one, MoM. It should be shown at all Occupy rallies.

manofmystery View Drop Down

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Posted: January 20 2012 at 15:05

For those posters here that never grasped the difference between capitalism and our current system or who want to paint our current system as capitalism in order to confuse the first group:

Time always wins.

manofmystery View Drop Down

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Posted: January 19 2012 at 14:48

Here's a nice, meaty documentary explaining what's actually happening with US foreign policy:

Time always wins.

manofmystery View Drop Down

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Posted: January 19 2012 at 10:40

I suppose we've all been too focused on political commentary, over in the GOP thread, than issues.

Time always wins.

The T

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Posted: January 19 2012 at 10:22

JJLehto

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Posted: January 16 2012 at 22:36

Sounds like SOPA is dead...at least for now.
Assume it'll be dead for this year, but surely in 2013 they will try again!

Epignosis

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Posted: January 16 2012 at 22:23

Appropriate on this day:

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 13 2012 at 08:26

stonebeard wrote:

http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/nbtp6/the_budget_explained_in_simple_english/c37vt0m

Counter-arguments to this kind of thing, guys? Seems to me like a lot of the sentiments here make some sense. For example, it would seem to follow that austerity measures benefit the upper class and put the burden on lower and middle class. Maybe just read through and off some libertarian/Austrian economist rebuttals if you wish.

If this Keynesian, Federal Reserve setup we have now is not a proper way toward economic prosperity, then what would the radical libertarian, even anarchist, suppose be the best way to have a robust economy with technological and cultural progress?

I won't be able to read it today since I had a Saturday class sprung on me four minutes ago for which I need to now prepare. The quick answer to your second question, ignoring the phrase cultural progress which is too nebulous for me to really address, is quite simply a free-market, completely free, with a hard currency standard chosen by the market. Yeah there's nothing really insightful in my response, but hopefully I can give you a nice critique of the article tomorrow.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

JJLehto

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Posted: January 13 2012 at 07:27

Tomorrow I'll be heading out to spend a week or two in the land of freedom, aka Pennsylvania (apparently, since it houses 3 of or members). Maybe being there again will finally push me over the edge and I'll go anarcho capitalist, or insane. It could be either since the Lancaster area isn't exactly brimming.

Pat best have those cheesesteaks and beer ready!

stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: January 13 2012 at 02:06

http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/nbtp6/the_budget_explained_in_simple_english/c37vt0m

My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

JJLehto

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Posted: January 12 2012 at 16:35

yeah what good is class anyway?
Seriously, I've taken a few economic classes and look how I feel about stuff LOL

(it's because I was barely awake for most of them, and I fear our leaders were in the same boat!)

edit: If wiki can be trusted, kinda cool/interesting that the Democratic NH primary had Ron Paul come in second with 4% of the a write in vote?

Edited by JJLehto - January 12 2012 at 18:26

stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: January 12 2012 at 16:31

Just tested out of a Macroeconomics class through CLEP. I still don't know anything about economics, but now I don't have to waste my time learning about all the bullsh*t control the government tries to exert.

My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

JJLehto

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Posted: January 12 2012 at 16:28

Either on purpose, stupidity (or just going with what you hear) Paul's view always seem misunderstood.

All the time I hear "lol he wants us on the gold standard" or "wow yeah what a nut hes gunna put us on the gold standard again" (KoS if by some chance you see this you've done this a couple of times on FB!!) and I would agree, I don't want us to go on the gold standard. BUT...that's not quite accurate. I don't believe he ever said he would "put us on the gold standard" but have that as an option if people chose to do so.

Sigh....the misinformation. I'm all for disagreeing but people rarely even hear the true position.

Or how "each state could have its own currency" I once heard, that may be my favorite gross misrepresentation.
Much as I want the Jersey snookie to be worth half a Pennsylvania redneck and 3 New York mobsters. I just can't believe the "news" we hear!

Padraic

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Posted: January 12 2012 at 12:02

Negoba wrote:

Birth is not efficient. C-sections are the closest approximations, and we are getting closer and closer to C-sections on demand. They are available in other countries. That's another ball of wax.

It's part of the risk aversion and subsequent legal action - when in doubt, C-section.

For example, my father is one of only a handful of doctors at his hospital that could deliver a baby breach. This used to be the norm; now, if the baby isn't head down, they just do a section.

Negoba

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Posted: January 12 2012 at 11:45

The problem is the culture clash between a more naturalistic model vs a medical / scientific one. The ob/gyns are expected to come to the rescue when things go bad, whether they've agreed to or not. If you're at home without much monitoring, things can get past fixing and yet it's the deep pocket (the ob/gyn's insurance policy) that is taken to court to satisfy a grieving family.

Birth is not efficient. C-sections are the closest approximations, and we are getting closer and closer to C-sections on demand. They are available in other countries. That's another ball of wax.

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 12 2012 at 11:24

I guess I never realized that resource consumption required. I know Ron talks about midwives and home births a lot. Maybe from that negative experience?

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Negoba

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Posted: January 12 2012 at 11:17

Gynecology isn't terrible if that's all you do.

Obstetrics is a miserable job these days. Childbirth takes a long time. When it goes well, it doesn't really require medical help. But when true medical intervention is needed, it's often NOW. The stakes are high.

There is a clash between the needs of the majority having a normal childbirth and the few that modern medicine is lifesaving. Right now, the norm is to induce childbirth early under spinal anesthesia because it is the easiest way to control the situation.

The best units have a doctor (or several) present 24/7 and one or several midwives present 24/7 along with an RN to every 1-2 patients. That is just unbelievable resource demanding. The docs that work these shifts may easily deliver 20 babies in a 24 hour shift. Catch and run is a norm.

I will say that a good OB nurse can be one of the best blessing the world can give you.

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.