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maani 
Special Collaborator 
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
 Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:55 |
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Stonebeard:
Tell me - how fast do you think you could whip out your cellphone camera or camcorder? Fast enough to capture a plane or missile travleing at hundreds of miles per hour? It would only be in your frame of reference for seconds. Even if someone were standing on the corner with a camcorder filming "local color," it is doubtful that, even if they swung it around as soon as they heard a strange noise, they would have captured anything on tape.
I am also curious why you find it so hard to believe that the U.S. government would blatantly murder its own citizens. This would not be the first time, nor would it be the last: it would only be the most "spectacular" example. We do it "over there" all the time, in covert ops that end up killing civilians, including Americans, as well as whoever the target(s) is/are. Never heard the term "collateral damage?" If the "goal" is important enough, then "collateral damage" could (and has) easily include American citizens.
Peace.
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:53 |
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I read somewhere that the video that Mike posted is being shown to the British Government in June or July, but I bet it'll be scoffed at and completely debunked.
Especially by Blair and his cronies. |
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:49 |
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Fitz:
I actually have a copy of Prof. Jones' abstract. It is important to let people know that this is the first paper relating to alternative theories of the WTC collapse that has been accepted for peer review by the scientific community. If it passes peer review, it will undoubtedly find its way to one of the major "hard science" publications.
Peace.
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Fitzcarraldo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:43 |
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I have to say that the following academic paper analysing the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings makes interesting reading:
Also interesting is the 1 hour 50 minute video of Professor Jones' Feb. 2006 lecture, followed by a 10-minute Q&A session followed by 10 minutes of footage of the three buildings collapsing and the controlled demolition of various high-rise buildings. The footage of the collapse of WTC7 is particularly interesting.
The hyperlink to the lecture video is on the above-mentioned page, but I recommend reading the paper first.
EDIT:
Subsequently to the above post I read something else about Professor Jones' paper. According to http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/jones.htm, his paper was peer-reviewed by the journal Research In Political Economy, and not by a scientific or engineering journal. According to the Wikipedia page on Professor Jones, his paper will be included in the book "9/11 And The American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out", a volume edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott, and scheduled for publication in 2006 by Interlink Books (not Elsevier as I had written in a previous post). I had hoped that Prof. Jones' paper would be submitted to an engneering or scientific journal. This is the only way to gain credibility for his hypothesis of controlled demolition. According also to http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/jones.htm, the Chairman of the Brigham Young University Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record stating in an e-mail, "I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think there is accuracy and validity to these claims".
I do hope that Prof. Jones submits his paper for peer review in an engineering or science journal, rather than just publishing it in a book edited by an advocate of the controlled demolition theory. Edited by Fitzcarraldo - May 24 2006 at 19:22 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 18:00 |
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^ Oi !!! Abuse! Abuse, I say!!!
 Edited by stonebeard - May 18 2006 at 18:01 |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:57 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:42 |
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^ Maybe Patrick Stewart captured the film after Mel Gibson threatened to go public with it?
 Edited by Tony R - May 18 2006 at 17:53 |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:37 |
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Originally posted by stonebeard: I don't believe the conspiracy theorists. This is why: There is simply too much at risk for the government
to do this. What's the possibility of a missile hitting the Pentagon,
and no other civilian recording device capturing it!? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me: I dont disbelieve the conspiracy theorists. This is why: It is relatively simply and not too much at risk for the government to do this. What's the possibility of a plane hitting the Pentagon, and no other civilian recording device capturing it!? Understand now? Edited by Tony R - May 18 2006 at 17:39 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:35 |
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Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't logically have happened. This had to have been considered at the time of planning. Most U.S. domestic and foreign operations are covert. This was very overt, reguardless of who did it. This being so, extra precautions had to be taken.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:31 |
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Yep,I know.
You are saying that surely if a missile had been heading towards The Pentagon someone would have noticed and caught it on their phone. I'm saying that that supposition stands for the plane theory. No civilian video exists of either. Which means the "risk" assessment you made was faulty. |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:27 |
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Argh!
 I'm talking only of the POSSIBILITY of something being recorded! |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:25 |
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They didnt capture video of a plane either which would have been flying a very scary trajectory for quite a few minutes and doubtless that area (though I'm guessing) would normally be free of air traffic,certainly low flying jets! Edited by Tony R - May 18 2006 at 17:25 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:23 |
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Not CCTV. A simple camcorder or cell phone. And if not the impact, then at least the flight towards the Pentagon. I'm not saying that someone did capture it, but the possiblity of someone capturing a missile on its way or hitting the Pentagon is too high.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:21 |
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well there weren't any civilian devices caught the plane hitting The Pentagon either.No one's going to tell me that Military Intelligence dont foot the bill for all local CCTV set ups. |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:18 |
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I don't believe the conspiracy theorists.
This is why: There is simply too much at risk for the government to do this. What's the possibility of a missile hitting the Pentagon, and no other civilian recording device capturing it!?!?! Let me tell you, if this was the case, and people found out, I am confident, most sectors of the government would be overthrown, Bush's head (and maybe even Clinton's, depending on how far back this went) would roll( literally) and thousands of high-ranking officials would be executed. Why risk all that?
Perhaps I don't want to believe the theories for other reasons. In fact, I know this to be true. If it turned out to be so, that the governmet actualy killed 3000+ American in order to get involved in two wars, then... *
* Edited for fear of the government charging me with a crime under the Patriot act. Edited by stonebeard - May 18 2006 at 17:21 |
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 17:05 |
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NaturalScience: Your reaction is perfectly understandable. After all, who of us was not affected "in the moment" - psycho-emotionally traumatized by the immensity of what we were witnessing? But that is the entire point: it is because we were traumatized "in the moment" that we were unable to really look at what was happening - to "coldly" analyze what we were seeing, hearing, etc. There are those who were able to do so - who immediately suspected a controlled demolition of the WTC, and did not "buy" that a 757 hit the Pentagon - but they are few and far between. Instead, it took time for those of us in the 9/11 truth movement to "get over" the initial "shock and awe" of that moment and begin really looking at the "evidence" provided in the "official story," and seeing the discrepancies, ambiguities, lies, etc.
What occurred on 9/11 is like the magician who uses "misdirection" to make you look at anything except what he is really doing. It is "smoke and mirrors" and "blue screen technology" that make you believe that what you are seeing is "real." It is the very traumatization created by such acts that is used to "hide" the "strings" being manipulated by the puppeteers.
Your feelings are perfectly understandable - and, indeed, normal. But it is important to get beyond those feelings and get back to a rational, coldly analytical frame of mind so that you can start to see the strings, the blue screen, the misdirection. It will hurt - alot - to do so, both because the traumatization was so severe and because what you will find will almost certainly make you angry at your leaders. But it is also extremely healthy - not just "politically," but also psycho-emotionally - to allow a very supportable "righteous indignance" and anger to replace a cynically-induced trauma.
Peace.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 16:16 |
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I was living in northern Virginia and working in Washington DC in Sept.
2001. I was driving into work when the Pentagon was
attacked. If anyone knows Washington, I was on the beltway at the
southern end of the city, driving across the Wilson bridge. Radio
reports were coming in that Washington was now under attack, as New
York had been. I didn't believe it until I looked up the river
and saw the awful plume of black smoke rising...
You all are presenting various pieces of evidence....I'm usually a highly rational person, but I'm going to disagree with all these conspiracies for one reason - I just can't believe. Our lives changed forever on Sept. 11 - at least those like me fared better than poor Jody who lost family, or of course all the victims who lost their lives that day. But I can easily separate my emotional state, my mindset, into pre- and post-9/11 frames; I'll never have that pre-9/11 life back. Our government has problems and I know a lot of the world is angry and upset with America now for our actions overseas, but I just simply can't believe that our government would do this to us, to shatter all our lives to some degree in this way. I'm sorry that I can't offer more rational arguments but anyway I had to say this. Again Jody I'm very sorry for your loss. |
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cucacola54
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2005 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 1729 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 14:45 |
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Sorry to hear that
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21598 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 14:20 |
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BTW: Dalezilla initially posted the link to the video in another thread two months ago.
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
Posted: May 18 2006 at 14:01 |
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By the way, there is a really incredible book that is must reading on this issue. It is called "The Terror Timeline," by Paul Thompson. What is amazing about the book is that Thompson uses only articles and photographs from mainstream media sources - i.e., those that the majority of Americans accept as "legitimate," whether liberal or conservative (i.e., network, cable, etc., but not "alternative publications") - and using only those sources is able to show that if we look carefully at those sources, even they ultimately debunk the "official story." A good example (which is also in the video link provided by MikeEnRegalia, which I re-posted) is the number of news anchors, firefighters, employees of companies at the WTC, and even passers-by who spoke of "multiple explosions" in the twin towers, suggesting a controlled demolition.
Two other books I highly recommend are by David Ray Griffin, a theologian and 9/11 truth movement leader. His first book on this issue - "The New Pearl Harbor" - is an important book. And his second - "The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions" - is a careful parsing of the "official story."
Peace.
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9/11 Pentagon Video finally released...
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stonebeard wrote: