What happened to TOP 100??? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Mandrakeroot View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Italian Prog Specialist

Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851

Posted: July 11 2007 at 12:42

M@X wrote:

Mandrakeroot wrote:

M@X now you should concentrate yourself on the ratings of the individual album because how written in other thread there are weird cases (album with 1 rating and decimals [for example 3,45/1])

I may have fix this already ...

Wich album ?

How already written from other, the album are much. They would have been lost it lose days to list the all. I am noting that they are all those with 1 rating. For the other I would not know to say.

yargh

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421

Posted: July 11 2007 at 12:42

Jim Garten wrote:

Zappa88 wrote:

If people defended their albums by writing reviews instead of complaining, the list would be rock solid by now!

Now if you'll excuse me, I just need to "radically (and baselessly) manipulate the group consensus by attaching more weight to my own opinions"

To Zappa: I do not post reviews to Progarchives because I am a writer for another site. I used to rate albums without writing reviews, but they must have been (idiotically) deleted because I cannot find them anywhere. A rating without a review should carry the same weight as a rating with a review, and those submitted by readers should count the same as "collaborators," most of whom display no discernably greater amount of experience with or knowledge of the music than the majority of the random reader reviews.

As for Garten, I'd appreciate some kind of justification for this ridiculously flawed and prejudicial system than an inane line of clapping smilies.

explodingjosh View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 507

Posted: July 11 2007 at 12:57

Zappa88 wrote:

Guys and gals, I'd hate to sound annoying but I'm very irritated by the complaints about who is where on the chart. First off, it's not like M@X is picking his favorite albums, or picking obscure albums for the hell of it just to make people mad...YOU GUYS ALL HAVE THE POWER! This is OUR chart, everybody here on PA has a say in it and take for example Brain Salad Surgery. It's not in the top 100 but it's your favorite album? Then write a review for it to give it some more of a chance of getting back into the top rather than sitting down and complianing and trying to change the algorithm!

I think that is actually a very bad idea. That's all the encouragement fanboys need to write a ridiculous 5 star review for an album that doesn't deserve it, or write a 1 or 2 star review on a higher rated album. NO ONE should ever write a review for any other purpose other than to simply give their objective take on the album. You're encouraging reviewers to have a hidden agenda.

bhikkhu

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A² Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109

Posted: July 11 2007 at 12:59

StyLaZyn wrote:

bhikkhu wrote:

There is something wrong with the system. If you look at some albums with only one rating, you will see what I mean. Hopefully M@X is on it.

I think there should be a minimum number of ratings before an album is allowed into the ranks.

Obviously, no album with one rating is in the top 100

a.k.a. H.T.

http://riekels.wordpress.com

The T

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:08

Well, if we agree (as I think we can) that the old system was a popularity contest, then it showed the more popular prog choices... didn't it?

The question is: WHAT DOES THIS ONE SHOW? So you say this new system shows quality?

Well, none can say I don't do my part of the job writing reviews, but even now they will count less anyway....

I thank the OLD top-100 for helping me get to know a LOT of prog.... Now I think it's time not to bother about that list ever again, as it's been rendered useless...

moreitsythanyou View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 11682

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:14

Originally I was somewhat apethetic about the new algorithm, but I have to say that it serves a good purpose and definately highlights all bands fairly. The significant freefall of certain albums may be shocking now, but soon we'll be used to it. I think that this system really makes us think tiwce about giving an album five stars because of the greater impact it has, the album might not necessarily deserve it.

Another plus: Tull at #1

<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]

The T

Special Collaborator

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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:14

By the way, and this somebody may agree with: what the hell are SINGLES and EPS and DVDSdoing in the top -100 ALBUM list? PT's "Arriving Somewhere..."

...... At least the top 100 should be focused on albums.... If it was DEADWING in the top of the list, I'd be OK... but a video?

Sorry, I said I wouldn't bother. But I do. After all, I devote a lot of time to this website, only to see it changed for the worse.

the admins for every good decision they usually do... This was NOT one, in my view...

Easy Livin View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
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Points: 15585

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:29

Are there any singles or EPs?

What do others think about the inclusion of DVDs? Is it right to exclude them? What about live albums?

Floydian42 View Drop Down

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Joined: January 13 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 846

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:31

The Miracle wrote:

It looks a bit weird and not as accurate as the previous one to be honest...

I concur. I prefer the way it was.

M@X

Forum & Site Admin Group

Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster

Joined: January 29 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 4075

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:42

I can remove the EPS/DVD and LIVE from the list in the homepage and in the TOP MENU link that points to the TOP 100 ...

But when use click on all ALBUMS/ALL GENRES , thoses should be listed

Prog On !

yargh

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:46

Just in case anybody cares ---

Here are the current 50 highest rated albums (DVDs omitted) over at Gnosis2000.net. They use a weighted mean in their algorithm as well.

1. In The Court Of The Crimson King (King Crimson)

2. Darwin (Banco)

3. Selling England By The Pound (Genesis)

4. Hybris (Anglagard)

5. Per Un Amico (PFM)

6. Larks Tongues In Aspic (King Crimson)

7. Of Ques and Cures (National Health)

8. Rotters Club (Hatfield and the North)

9. Foxtrot (Genesis)

10. Io Sono Nato Libero (Banco)

11. Storia Di Un Minuto (PFM)

12. Close To The Edge (Yes)

13. 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings (John Coltrane)

14. Thick As A Brick (Jethro Tull)

15. In A Glass House (Gentle Giant)

16. Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso (Banco)

17. Pawn Hearts (VDGG)

18. Hatfield And The North (Hatfield And The North)

19. Kind Of Blue (Miles Davis)

20. Hai/Live (Magma)

21. Ys (Il Balletto Di Bronzo)

22. Ceux Du Dehors (Univers Zero)

23. You (Gong)

24. A Love Supreme (John Coltrane)

25. Octopus (Gentle Giant)

26. Great Deceiver Live 1973-1974 (King Crimson)

27. 4 Visions (Eskaton)

28. Red (King Crimson)

29. Nursery Cryme (Genesis)

30. Arbeit Macht Frei (Area)

31. KA (Magma)

32. Epilog (Anglagard)

33. Trologie Theusz Hantaahk (Magma)

34. Rock Bottom (Robert Wyatt)

35. Inner Mounting Flame (Mahavishnu Orchestra)

36. Anabelas (Bubu)

37. Three Friends (Gentle Giant)

38. Bardomens Stigar (Kultivator)

39. Land Of Grey And Pink (Caravan)

40. Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh (Magma)

41. Third (Soft Machine)

42. Godbluff (VDGG)

43. Crac! (Area)

44. Bitches Brew (Miles Davis)

45. Birds Of Fire (Mahavishnu Orchestra)

46. Hot Rats (Frank Zappa)

47. You Can't Do That On Stage Any More Vol 2 (Frank Zappa)

48. Eros (Dun)

49. Lizard (King Crimson)

50. Picchio Dal Pozzo (Picchio Dal Pozzo)

Edited by yargh - July 11 2007 at 13:48

The T

Special Collaborator

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Joined: October 16 2006
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Points: 17493

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:50

Yes... At least let's keep the list ALBUM-only (at least the one in the front page)... If we can't go back to the older, better system, at least let's try to make this one work better... DVDs should not be considered, nort should EPS or LIVES... the reasoning is this: not only the production values may be weaker (or great in some cases) but the song selection would make it unfair: an album would have a difficult time competeing with a DVD-live performance full of "the best songs" of a band... Anyway, we as proggers now how it is THE ALBUM the main creative output from our artists... I suggest that we take thos out of this flawed-system top-100 list...

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Points: 21598

Posted: July 11 2007 at 13:52

M@X wrote:

I can remove the EPS/DVD and LIVE from the list in the homepage and in the TOP MENU link that points to the TOP 100 ...

But when use click on all ALBUMS/ALL GENRES , thoses should be listed

You could remove them from the main list and call it "Top 100 Prog Studio Albums" (also remove the proto-prog/prog-related while you're at it Wink

), and then add another list which contains only live albums. Or maybe make it three lists:

1. Top 100 Prog Studio Albums
2. Top 50 Prog Live Albums/DVDs
3. Top 20 Proto-Prog/Prog-Related Albums/DVDs

No disrespect intended for live albums, DVDs or proto-prog/prog-related ... but such a division (100/50/20) helps to show the focus of the website. Smile

Release Polls

Listened to:

StyLaZyn

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079

Posted: July 11 2007 at 14:00

yargh wrote:

Just in case anybody cares ---

Here are the current 50 highest rated albums (DVDs omitted) over at Gnosis2000.net. They use a weighted mean in their algorithm as well.

Holy crap! I just went over there and checked the place out. Needless to say, this site will remain my favorite for Prog!

laplace

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606

Posted: July 11 2007 at 14:14

To me, that Gnosis list is a better top X of prog than ours is and seems less accessible for the same reasons; although PdP and UZ have made some of my personal favourite records, they're not for everyone.

Atkingani

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288

Posted: July 11 2007 at 14:22

Anyone who visits PA knows how the weight system works; anyway, we have a bunch of new guys/girls here and it's worth to repeat it again.

All Collaborator (4 & 5 stars level) have a different weight for Ratings-with-Reviews from non-Collabs. This different weight is equal for an Administrator and a ProgReviewer, for instance. Considering that the Admins are only 5 people amidst almost 200 Collabs, our number isn't enough to influence whatever be (even if we wanted to do this).

Otherwise, the algo is handled only by webmasters and co-owners and consequently the Admins cannot manipulate things as unfairly stated some pages before.

Please, be informed about PA issues to avoid misunderstandings or bashings in order not to dress the jester's garment.

Guigo

~~~~~~

Logan

Forum & Site Admin Group

Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 37240

Posted: July 11 2007 at 14:29

Gnosis2000 is not as user-friendly as this site, certainly. It's a very interesting project and a good reference site. Their top 50 is much more in-line with my tastes (wonderful Zeuhl, Canterbury, Avant and Jazz-Fusion albums in that list).

progismylife View Drop Down

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Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
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Points: 15535

Posted: July 11 2007 at 14:38

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

You could remove them from the main list and call it "Top 100 Prog Studio Albums" (also remove the proto-prog/prog-related while you're at it Wink

Chris H

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 08 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 8191

Posted: July 11 2007 at 14:51

yargh wrote:

Jim Garten wrote:

Zappa88 wrote:

If people defended their albums by writing reviews instead of complaining, the list would be rock solid by now!

Now if you'll excuse me, I just need to "radically (and baselessly) manipulate the group consensus by attaching more weight to my own opinions"

As for Garten, I'd appreciate some kind of justification for this ridiculously flawed and prejudicial system than an inane line of clapping smilies.

Well then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Yes, the whole world is against you.

yargh

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421

Posted: July 11 2007 at 15:02

Zappa88 wrote:

yargh wrote:

Jim Garten wrote:

Zappa88 wrote:

If people defended their albums by writing reviews instead of complaining, the list would be rock solid by now!

Now if you'll excuse me, I just need to "radically (and baselessly) manipulate the group consensus by attaching more weight to my own opinions"

As for Garten, I'd appreciate some kind of justification for this ridiculously flawed and prejudicial system than an inane line of clapping smilies.

Well then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Yes, the whole world is against you.

What are you talking about? Coherence, please.