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Archisorcerus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 11:38
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Thus, reality can mean a fact.


Of course it can. As a matter of fact, this thread is a proof of that. But that there is a confusion between the notions of "reality" and "fact" is also a fact prooven by this thread. You can use a dictionary to find a definition of a word, but a dictionary is quite limited when it comes to meta-discussions, and doesn't give any explanation. Hence my link to that "long writing": it shows that the notion of "fact" is much more complexe in science and philosophy. It can have different meanings, depending on how it is used and who uses it in what context. Limiting it to just one meaning would be... well, a bit limited...

That said, I very much agree with Nietszche, who said "There are no facts, only interpretations".
(But how would he define "facts"? Tongue )




Okay. I respect your view. And yeah. Philosophy is a deep ocean. But I, at least, was not pretentious here to claim to have abundant knowledge in this field. Wait, is that a field or an ocean? Geek

I respect and like people like you and Lewian all the time. I should have proven that many times. It should be a fact. Tongue

BTW, I despise Nietzche. Haha. I most often disagree with his words. (Mind you, my hatred towards him is another matter. I normally don't hate people whom I disagree with.) My man is his educator: the almighty Schopenhauer. Wink

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 17 2023 at 12:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 13:26
I think it's a big difference to see a a correlation between fact and conscience than to think that reality, facts or the outside world exist without any conscience. I refuse to fall into the dichotomy learn my our cultural background that teach us how to separate things with words, objects. I also feel that there is something more than a subject versus a object... Back to  Roger Waters this curious subject that think he can stop the war and brings love and peace. I agree with him that there is something wrong with the politicians but he doesn't add any solution to all the problems in the world.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 13:58
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

The map however is not territory.

Which makes me think of this very interesting article by Umberto Eco: “On the Impossibility of Drawing a Map of the Empire on a Scale of 1 to 1” (in How to Travel with a Salmon). Recommended reading!
 
This is an example of Bonini's paradox which says that as a model becomes more realistic, it also becomes just as difficult to understand as the real-world processes it represents.
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 16:07
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I like eating paper sometimes....

I spend most of my weekends eating napkins. They keep me regular and on schedule all week long. Thousand island sauce helps with the dryness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 16:16
^ I was doing the napkin thing for awhile.  Had to take a break, was starting to pass sawdust.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 17:25
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm still waiting for the Waters and Kanye collaboration. The album should be out very soon.


I mean, yes this is funny and pretty much... yeah, but:

We all know Waters would probably call himself "far, far, far more important" than Kanye West (which is HIGHLY debatable) and shun him (although I think secretly Waters has likely j*cked it to West's controversial statements).

BUT! An antisemite is an antisemite, and their legacy means jack sh*t to me. Varg Vikernes, Roger Waters, Kanye West, Peter Gabriel, Craig Pillard... all of them can take a flying leap for all I care.

I've tried to stay out of this thread and NOT voice my opinion on Waters, but this whole Frankfurt concert incident is so ironic and called for, I'm finding it too funny not to comment. He's getting exactly what he's deserved, for years! I hope the Frankfurt council stands their ground and doesn't budge. When Lorde tried to play in Florida after her antisemitic incident in 2017, the state attempted to block her from performing there, they were ultimately unable to stop her... hopefully he really does get what's coming to him this time around - who'd have thought that actions have consequences, huh? It's karma, b*tch!


Edited by bardberic - March 17 2023 at 17:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2023 at 07:46
^ There is always the danger of cutting short discussions and arguments by labeling someone "antisemite" when he is actually mainly against the policy and politics of the present day Israeli government (in short: a bit of a non-sequitur argument). Netanyahu's anti-democratic and apartheid policies should be combated by anyone who favours democracy and equality, and there are many Israelis against these policies without being antisemitic.

In the case of Roger Waters, I'm personally not convinced he's antisemitic. I haven't followed all of his statements on this, but what I've heard is mainly against Israel's policies regarding the Palestinian territories and the Israeli occupation and suffocation of these... But if you can refer to some of his antisemitic statements, I'd like to know them.
And I actually find the German cancellations of his concerts quite surprising and maybe one of those excesses of "cancel culture" another thread here on PA is discussing...

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Philosophy is a deep ocean. But I, at least, was not pretentious here to claim to have abundant knowledge in this field. Wait, is that a field or an ocean? Geek

Ha... A field you can grow on, an ocean you can sink in... I guess Philosophy can be capable of both! Wink



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2023 at 21:14
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ There is always the danger of cutting short discussions and arguments by labeling someone "antisemite" when he is actually mainly against the policy and politics of the present day Israeli government (in short: a bit of a non-sequitur argument). Netanyahu's anti-democratic and apartheid policies should be combated by anyone who favours democracy and equality, and there are many Israelis against these policies without being antisemitic.

In the case of Roger Waters, I'm personally not convinced he's antisemitic. I haven't followed all of his statements on this, but what I've heard is mainly against Israel's policies regarding the Palestinian territories and the Israeli occupation and suffocation of these... But if you can refer to some of his antisemitic statements, I'd like to know them.
And I actually find the German cancellations of his concerts quite surprising and maybe one of those excesses of "cancel culture" another thread here on PA is discussing...

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Philosophy is a deep ocean. But I, at least, was not pretentious here to claim to have abundant knowledge in this field. Wait, is that a field or an ocean? Geek

Ha... A field you can grow on, an ocean you can sink in... I guess Philosophy can be capable of both! Wink




Look, I didn't comment here to debate with anyone about their contentions with whichever BS regarding Israel they "disagree" - unless you've seen the situation yourself, it's best if you DON'T chime on it because what you see in the filtered biased "headline culture" that dictates the narrative we see day-to-day is not enough to provide anyone with the insight to really make any judgement yourself; the terminology you used here indicate a very rudimentary "understanding," if it really can be considered so, of the situation, and clearly do not grasp the nuances of the full situation. Unconstructive commentary by third parties actually PROLONGS the conflict and hurts both sides, especially the oppressed parties, by way of "media warfare," I suppose is what I'd call it.

Notice how I never brought up Israel nor "Natanyahu" one time in my above comment. It's irrelevant. The whole purpose of the comment is to point out that Waters got exactly what he deserved - that is, he has called for a boycott on Israel and Israelis - if this were about the government, then he'd have directed his "criticisms" towards the government and not take it out on the innocent civilians of the country; instead, he'd rather harass the performers who plan to come to the country. This whole "apartheid" BS, against which I will not provide any refutes - either you understand or you don't - has been going on long before "Natanyahu's" "apartheid policies" (cut me a break, ffs). When Lorde cancelled her concert in Israel, because of pressure from BDS, the organization with which Waters associates himself, my eight year old cousin cried, claiming that Lorde "hates [her]." What exactly is that accomplishing? The end of "apartheid," or just a pissed off child that will learn to hate instead of love?

First of all, the way Waters projects his anti-Israel hate speech is both horribly uninformed, and completely delusional - for instance here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/bzp04b/roger_waters_caught_in_a_lie_about_the_reaction/ and a simple web crawler search would reveal that a much of what he's said is uninformed, or straight up incorrect - for instance, he blamed the IDF on George Floyd's death in 2020 claiming that they taught the police the techniques they used that he believed killed him. He's also compared Israel to Nazi Germany on several occasions - this alone is already a highly antisemitic remark. Antisemitism does not only manifest in ultra-conservative viewpoints, like you would normally think of, and one of the most prominent forms of antisemitism today exists as "anti-zionism," with which BDS associates itself. I'm not going to elaborate on this - this website is not the place to do so - nevertheless, one of the biggest indicators of antisemitism in the 21st century is "double standards;" that is holding Israel, the Jewish state, to a different standard than any other country... where's Waters' boycott of China, a country which has been accused of committing ACTUAL genocide (again, I'm not here to explain the massive difference between Israel's policies and a genocide, or Israel and a so-called "apartheid state"), or Russia - in fact while the rest of Pink Floyd tried pulling their music out of Russia during this Russia-Ukraine invasion (and frankly I would disagree with that practice as well, but that's a discussion for later), Waters ensured that the Pink Floyd music on which he worked remained in Russia... obviously, he's not boycotting Russia despite their aggression towards Ukraine - or Turkey, which is horribly mistreating their Kurdish population? What makes Israel worth boycotting that makes these above countries not worth it? This is called a double standard - while there are ways to criticize Israel in constructive ways over issues you perceive as contentious, as brought up earlier, boycotting the country and its people without equal treatment of other countries is indeed antisemitic.

It doesn't change the fact that Waters has displayed an inflatable pig at concerts, decorated with a magen david - there were also communist symbols on it and dollar signs, which has irked some people, too. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of articles on this and each them say something different and in all of them Waters defended the pig one way or another, so you'll have to come to your own opinion on this; look I have my viewpoints on this incident, and while I do not believe it was intentionally antisemitic in the "traditional" sense, there are underlying antisemitic tones there. He claims the magen david was to protest Israeli governmental policy, but the magen david represents the Jewish people, not necessarily Israel, and is the reason that Israel uses the magen david on its flag - imagine he wanted to protest Turkey by flying a pig (also not halal, just as they're not kosher) with a star and crescent on it... I'm well aware the the star and crescent are actually Turkish symbols and not Islamic, but due to the Ottoman influence in essentially all the Islamic countries, it's become a symbol to represent Islam as a whole. You also have to realize that a symbol like that represents people - protesting the Israeli government by flying an animal considered to be taboo by an entire nation of people, in or out of the country, and putting their symbol on it does more than just protest the government - that's an incitement against the people whom the symbol represents - yes, it's extremely antisemitic, no matter which way he wants to spin his rationale for it.

He's done more stupid sh*t like that, but this is just one example. The anti-defamation league has called Waters an antisemite, as well as many Jewish figures and prominent rabbis. Frankly, I'm incline to call him one to, as I did above. If he doesn't understand why this is, and he doesn't seem to, then he is completely out of touch with reality, which he appears to be. If there is any country that knows what is and isn't antisemitic, it's Germany - and the Frankfurt council that cancelled him cites antisemitism as their reason. I agree with them.

Once again, I didn't comment here to argue with anyone (you included) about Israel itself - I'm just here to point out that Waters is getting the treatment he deserves right now. If he lashes out at people (in this case the Israelis, and by proxy, the Jews), then people are going to lash out right back at him and I'm surprised it took this long to happen in the first place. This incident really does expose him as a hypocrite - if he can't take the dish than he shouldn't dish it out, himself! He boycotts a whole country of people, then he a person should be boycotted himself. It's only fair, right? Never mind "the wall" he wants to tear down (yes that's a multifaceted reference); he's putting up walls and trying to have everyone stand on his side of it. Frankfurt is choosing to stand on the other side. This is not "cancel culture," it's reciprocal treatment, eg, he's getting what he's giving.

Look, either you understand this or I just wasted my time, here. I do not care really to respond to this any further. I just came to laugh at Waters for getting the same treatment he dishes. This thread is about Roger Waters and not Israel, but I think I got my point across and I'm stopping before I ruffle too many feathers...


Edited by bardberic - March 19 2023 at 21:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 05:14

One question here: Is it antisemitic to support the Palestinians in their conflict with the Israeli government?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 06:00
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


One question here: Is it antisemitic to support the Palestinians in their conflict with the Israeli government?

Of course not

The Palestinians are also Semitic people

Don't mix anti-semitism with anti-zionism (Roger does the latter)
let's just stay above the moral melee
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 07:43
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Don't mix anti-semitism with anti-zionism (Roger does the latter)

So you wouldn't say he has been anti-Jewish, either?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 08:08
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Don't mix anti-semitism with anti-zionism (Roger does the latter)


So you wouldn't say he has been anti-Jewish, either?

Being against the actions of the Israeli Government does not necessarily make one anti-Jewish, I have no idea whether Roger is anti-Jewish or not but the things he says would carry a lot of weight with those who are anti-Jewish, and there are plenty of those people in the world today. Roger's appeal to those who are anti-Jewish is probably what the German government is concerned about.
I am just an outside observer and do not have a particular opinion about any of this.
EDIT: If he is putting the star of David on a floating pig, then I could see how someone could see this as anti-Jewish as opposed to just anti the Israeli government.

Edited by Easy Money - March 21 2023 at 08:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 10:11
First of all, stop it with the "anti-Jewish" BS; it's weird. The proper term is indeed "antisemitism," regardless of the fact that Arabs, and even certain Ethiopians, are also semitic people.
dictionary.com does a great job explaining this in their "usage notes:" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/antisemitism
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/anti-semitism
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/antisemitism
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Semitism
Agree with word or not, that's how it is used. This is also besides the fact that the usage of the word "semite" as an ethnic term is grossly outdated, based around the same kind of pseudo-science that the word "Aryan" used to refer to northern Europeans, developed 100 or so years later by the same group of German thinkers. So unless you believe in 18th-20th century German race theory, the only applicable use of the word "semite," without referring to the accepted term "antisemitism," to refer exclusively to prejudice against Jews, is for linguistic theory, grouping together Hebrew, Phoenician, Arabic, Aramiac, Amharic, Akkadian, and other related languages. The whole "oh, it's antisemitic to support Israel because Israel mistreats Palestinians, who are semites" BS is ironically one of the actually antisemitic talking points of the so-called "anti-zionists," which itself is a form of antisemitism. If you really want to go down this hole, I'll take you there, but once again the whole point is that ROGER WATERS HAS BOYCOTTED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, THUS NOW HE HIMSELF IS FACING A BOYCOTT, that's all there is to this. Theoretically, it has nothing to do with Israel nor the Jewish people, but again it's simply reciprocal treatment per his own actions, agree with him or not about his uninformed and delusional so-called "anti-zionist" talking points even though he doesn't give Russia, China, or other countries with alleged "human rights" issues the same treatment...

Edited by bardberic - March 21 2023 at 10:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 10:50
Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

ROGER WATERS HAS BOYCOTTED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, .....

Boycot of whole countries is unfortunately widespread means in politics. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 13:28
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


One question here: Is it antisemitic to support the Palestinians in their conflict with the Israeli government?

If your "support" is based on supporting a ridiculous boycott of the people of Israel (the only free democracy in the Middle East) and omitting yourself in the face of extremism in Palestine (where any Jew is automatically killed, unlike Israel where a part of the population is Arab and live normally), Iran and other countries around....yes, you are an anti-semite.

By the way, it looks like there are several here...not just Roger Waters. Trying to justify your anti-Semitism with that lame euphemism of "Anti-Zionist" is so pathetic...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 15:02
^ Especially when you look at a map of the West Bank/Mediterranean.   It's so very easy (and f*cking trendy) to be down on Israel, then you read a little history.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 17:52
Being against whatever the Israeli goverment is doing isn't anti-semetic. If it was, being against the Iraq war is anti-christian, since the US is a christian country. Also keep in mind many Jewish people in the west stand with Palestine on this whole conflict.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 17:53
^ That is a highly dubious statement.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 17:56
It's three statements.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2023 at 18:04
^ It is--  and the one about Jewish people in the west standing with Palestine is the most dubious.  I'm gonna guess you're not even half-Jewish, so let's put that aside.  Then we have to assume you have deep insight into the truth and complexities of Jewish-American/European diaspora.  Again, profoundly unlikely.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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