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Finnforest 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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 Posted: March 21 2010 at 08:14 |
 Padraic wrote:
There's a lot I could say, but increasingly my attitude is "what's the point?"
And Jay, I'm sorry, but I do put my family's interests above (the almost always ill-defined) "common good". If that makes me evil, well, I'm just an anonymous person on a message board, and I've been called worse.
Injecting this sort of language into the discourse is just such a turn-off for me. Sorry, had to say it.
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Best post of this thread.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Researcher
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 09:33 |
Qboyy007 wrote:
micky wrote:
ClemofNazareth wrote:
The real issue (as I see it) is that insurance companies act
as a for-profit middleman shaving hundreds of billions of dollars in profits
off the top. Since most of these
insurance companies are multinational corporations whose shares are often held
by foreign investors, this means billions of dollars allocated to providing
healthcare in our country are instead siphoned off and shipped overseas to line
the pockets of wealthy speculators instead.
Those who argue that publicly-funded and managed health coverage will
destroy our capitalist society are being duped, misled and driven to fear by
very well-funded and powerful industry lobbyists who, candidly, are clearly
brighter and more aware than we are.
(…dismounting soapbox…) 
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goddamn right...
I love people like you Bob (and Jay)... smart enough to say what I can't. I dance around it ..but get lost in denigrating the other side on this debate. Yes... that is exactly the REAL issue. The ignorance of those in this country who think that the rest of the world.. not us... have it wrong.
great post.
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Absolutely laughable post..... |
Care to elaborate, or is that the extent of your contribution to the discussion?
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 09:43 |
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I thought long and hard whether to post this, since I wouldn't like to rub anyone the wrong way - especially people I like and respect. Anyway, here it goes...
I have to say, I like it when people rail against political correctness and the suppression of free speech, and are ready to take offense when someone states their own point of view frankly. In this thread there have been those who have insulted whole categories of people (a particularly nasty remark about workers at McDonalds' comes to my mind), as well as made seriously disparaging remarks about other members' posts. Did anyone comment? Not on your life.
Now, someone like Jay - who, let's not forget, is a doctor working in an underprivileged area of the country, and therefore sees the effects of the current system firsthand - uses the word 'evil' to describe one particular point of view, and gets fingers pointed at him. Micky, who saw his and his ex-wife's savings evaporate overnight - savings accumulated through hard work, and with three young children to raise - saw one of his posts called 'laughable', as if it wasn't his right to be p****d off at the system. If any of us takes exception to chauvinistic, racist or sexist threads or remarks, we are accused of wanting to suppress freedom of speech... Yet, if one is candid in expressing their opinions - even when formed in a totally legitimate way, as in Jay's case - then they become the bad guy who uses bad words.
My own opinions on the matter at hand are anything but PC, so I'll keep them to myself, because I don't feel like being insulted left, right, and centre, or being told to go back where I come from. If that makes me a coward (as someone implied elsewhere), so be it. I just needed to get this off my chest, and perhaps make people stop for a second and think.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 10:02 |
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And I tried to bite my tongue as well, but some folks here expect a pass even when they casually throw around words like "evil", "ignorant", and in another thread relating to this...."non-human." Especially when some of the guys frequently attacked were being quite civil here.
Some people simply believe that the "progressive" viewpoint is the only valid one, and like in the media they expect a certain bias to protect them, and they cannot accept anyone with a Libertarian or Conservative viewpoint. This is fine, but please, don't whine about insults when a good deal of them come from the "englightened" crowd.
Edited by Finnforest - March 21 2010 at 10:06
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 10:05 |
Finnforest wrote:
And I tried to bite my tongue as well, but some folks here expect a pass even when they casually throw around words like "evil", "ignorant", and in another thread relating to this...."non-human." Especially when some of the guys frequently attacked were being quite civil here.
Some people simply believe that the "progressive" viewpoint is the only valid one, and like in the media they expect a certain bias to protect them, and they cannot accept anyone with a Libertarian or Conservative viewpoint. This is fine, but please, don't whine about insults when a good deal of them come from the "englightened" crowd.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 10:06 |
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double post...sorry
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 10:07 |
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I don't believe I was whining, but if this is the way you see it, then OK.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 10:11 |
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Doesn't really respond to the fact that you seem to not mind when certain folks throw out blanket professions of "ignorance", etc, on whole groups of members, but if someone else gets provocative, then it's an issue.
Is it OK for one set of rules for one side, and another set for the other side?
Or can we all agree to tone down the emotions and namecalling?
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 10:21 |
Raff wrote:
I don't believe I was whining, but if this is the way you see it, then OK.
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And you're right, "whine" was an unfair word to choose....I guess "complain" would have been more appropriate, sorry about that.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 10:36 |
I clarified and mediated my comments already, I won't rehash.
But I DO have much better first hand knowledge of how things actually work in health care for the under-insured than anyone else on this board. And I can be a harda$$ telling people they are perfectally capable of working productive lives, when it's appropriate. But not all the cases work that way.
I have repeatedly said that the real solution looks nothing like the current health care bill and also looks little like our current system. It's not a partisan thing. We need tort reform (a Democratic holy cow that our Democratic lawyer president will never support) and to rework the entire economy of medicine (unlikely either party would commit the political suicide that would require).
My personal opinion that we have to get the ball rolling somehow is an opinion. I have made no insults regarding this opinion.
And I expect no free rides. But if you read the post I responded to when I first pulled out "evil" and "sad excuse for human" it might make more sense.
It's a little difficult for me not to get emotional about this as it's my career.
Edited by Negoba - March 21 2010 at 10:38
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 10:59 |
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Jay, the guy simply presented his opinion, which I think you could have challenged without calling him those names. But my point was more general anyway. I believe we are starting to see a creeping double standard in the forum. Certain opinions are treated one way, other opinions another. And I'll stop there as this issue goes off topic and I could say a lot more about it.
As Pat said, it makes me not even want to participate in these threads....though I'll have to work even harder to stay out next time...because I obviously failed today. I already regret it.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 11:26 |
"Few people will put, in honest terms, what government health care really means, so here it is: It means that men with guns are going to take money by force from those that have earned it and give it to those that haven't. If they protest, they go to jail. If they resist going to jail strongly enough, they will be killed. Many people are okay with this plan and think it is fair. I don't. That's just where we disagree. I only wish people would express their views in concrete terms instead of in vague generalities like "the government should take care of poor people." If you believe that, fine, but say what you really mean. The government has no money of its own. Every dime they spend has to be forcibly taken from U.S. citizens (or borrowed, but that's a separate issue.)"
This is not just an opinion. This is unibomber talk.
One possibility about the "Double Standard." This is a multi-national forum. There are certain opinions that are fairly unique to a subset of the United States populace. Trying to make that as neutral an assertion as possible.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 11:33 |
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"Unibomber talk?" Please. Another insult. He is speaking a bit dramatically and perhaps overstating but his point is that he has no choice as a taxpayer but to support something he finds insane. He didn't insult you and he was civil.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 11:46 |
This is exactly the kind of paranoid nonsense that the unibomber wrote volumes about.
It is not civil, intelligent discourse.
And when I break the ideas down to their core, there is some real evil there. I'm sorry but there is. Is he personally evil? I doubt it. But some of the backbone of those ideas are. And I am willing to call that out.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 11:56 |
I'm amazed people as smart as you can pass judgements as heavy as "evil" based on a few lines in a post. That to me is scary. Liberals scoff at the notion of being called "socialist" for some of the Dem agenda items, yet, are willing to portray people in the same manner (as kooks) for their conservative beliefs. It's a political disconnect that I truly believe many liberals are quite oblivious they project. So be it. I guess we just agree to disagree on this.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 12:06 |
Epignosis wrote:
Beer.
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QFT
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 12:08 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 12:09 |
Again with the "evil". Alright, that's enough for me. Carry on gents. 
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 12:15 |
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Am I evil
Yes I am
Am I evil
I am Man
- Metallica (1982)
scource: progarchives.com
Edited by Easy Money - March 21 2010 at 12:16
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 12:35 |
Since liberals don't believe in sin, "evil" isn't that big of an insult. Socialism, on the other hand was like Eden, sullied and lost, and when those who never understood Eden invoke it's name without knowledge, it is disturbing.
In a similar way, you see me throwing around a heavy insult for an idea you see as reasonable. If someone was talking about lynching, we'd both feel comfortable using the word evil. The idea that the society should be governed primarily by self-interest is extremely disturbing to me. I use words that reflect how strongly I feel.
You keep bringing this back to party line politics. Health care is way beyond that. And the Democratic position is WAY too conservative for me on this issue. Please don't lump me with them.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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A health care question...
