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Archisorcerus View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:05
About the recent discussion;

The original quote that caused this says "not". So, a perception/perspective exists but truth does not without the other. Or opinions exist but facts do not without the other.. Or else, nothing can exist without perception/perspective. Or no truth can exist without opinion. Quintessentially, it says that nothing is the truth and nothing is a fact. I think this is utterly laughable. I'm a solid materialist. Even if we, the living beings, perceive everything (every material thing) differently, they still exist materially. We, the animals, touch a stone. Right? It doesn't matter how we see it, in essence. Some get burned if the stone is hot, some are not affected at all. But the temperature of a stone can change from hot to cold. Is this solely a perspective? I think not.

Anyway. Here's a poem about "truth" that I like very much:

27164907-10155938790063971-7659847763257497569-o




Edited by Archisorcerus - March 16 2023 at 18:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:10
^ But the stone will be brown in sunlight, blue in moonlight, orange in firelight, invisible in low light, and for all practical purposes nonexistent in no light.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:12
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

If someone sees a tree and he says, look its a tree, then he is using perception, but if he does not even see the tree or calls it a cow, its still a tree.
The fact that it is a tree does not require perception, perception is only necessary for someone to realize its a tree.

"Tree" is a word. It requires somebody to say it, and somebody to see the tree, who necessarily has a perspective. For me there is no contradiction between perspective and fact. All facts we are aware of are declared to be facts by somebody, from some perspective. Everything we know about trees comes from perception. You can say the tree is there without perception, but it isn't there as a tree, as tree is a word and connected to people who perceive the tree.
Yes at some point someone had to use perception to define what a tree is and label it as a 'tree', but that said object does not need that definition to exist. Call it whatever you want to and it is still the same object that is "something that exists", which is the definition of the word fact. This thing that we call a 'tree' is something that exists no matter what we call it.


Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2023 at 18:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:16
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ But the stone will be brown in sunlight, blue in moonlight, orange in firelight, invisible in low light, and for all practical purposes nonexistent in no light.


How can it be nonexistent in no light? Also, if the total lack of light sucks up its material structure, it is a happening. Like, you eat your cake and it is gone into your belly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:20
^ It may be that light is in fact a key ingredient in external reality.  But that's just my own wacky theory, so...

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:28
The thing that is apparently hard to get about what I'm saying is that by stating the importance of perception and perspective I'm not saying there are no facts. I'm not saying "it's solely perception and therefore it's not a fact". All I'm saying is all we know about facts comes from perception and perspective. Even if we say "XXX exists independently of our perception", there is no way for us to know this independently of our perception. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:31
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The thing that is apparently hard to get about what I'm saying is that by stating the importance of perception and perspective I'm not saying there are no facts. I'm not saying "it's solely perception and therefore it's not a fact". All I'm saying is all we know about facts comes from perception and perspective. Even if we say "XXX exists independently of our perception", there is no way for us to know this independently of our perception. 

Facts still would exist even if there no living beings that have a perception existed in the universe. Our knowing or not knowing the facts does not change reality/realities.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:39
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The thing that is apparently hard to get about what I'm saying is that by stating the importance of perception and perspective I'm not saying there are no facts. I'm not saying "it's solely perception and therefore it's not a fact". All I'm saying is all we know about facts comes from perception and perspective. Even if we say "XXX exists independently of our perception", there is no way for us to know this independently of our perception. 
Well I appreciate that, but within our exchange I still think you are talking about the recognition, definition, label or name of an object, all of which require human perception.
But I am talking about the object itself, "something that exists", which is the definition of a fact, and the object itself does not require human recognition of any kind.

Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2023 at 19:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 19:11
All things are quantum fluctuations. We (people) give those quantum fluctuations a sort of "identity" by naming them. However, depending on all sorts of things like the perception of wave length, density, mass etc, different creatures (and indeed people) will interpret these quantum fluctuations differently.

Add to this the separate and differentiated lived experiences of the observer, and how that impacts interpretation, what we are left with is a best guess really, depending on a combination of consensus reality and previous personal preference.

The map however is not territory.








Edited by Hugh Manatee - March 16 2023 at 19:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 19:16
Nice poem by England by the way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 19:48
There must be some really good weed going round.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2023 at 20:49
^ Good ?   Does the phrase "What was I just saying?" mean anything --
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 05:38
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

The map however is not territory.

Which makes me think of this very interesting article by Umberto Eco: “On the Impossibility of Drawing a Map of the Empire on a Scale of 1 to 1” (in How to Travel with a Salmon). Recommended reading!

In everyday language - as is apparent in some comments here - there is often a confusion between "reality" and "fact". To add to the confusion, but also maybe for a better understanding of of the notion, some more recommended reading...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 05:48
And a bit more about Roger Waters, this time with the Germans...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 06:56
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

And a bit more about Roger Waters, this time with the Germans...

As much as I disagree with Roger on many things, I think this...
Quote
In February, magistrates in Frankfurt instructed the venue for Waters’ 28 May concert in the city to cancel it, arguing that Waters was “one of the most widely known antisemites” in the world.
...is as outrageous as pretty much anything he has said. One can for sure discuss to what extent his views amount to antisemitism, but I think it should be generally acknowledged that this will always be a difficult issue, and the basis on which he'd claim he isn't is pretty clear to me, agree with it or not.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 07:36
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

In everyday language - as is apparent in some comments here - there is often a confusion between "reality" and "fact". To add to the confusion, but also maybe for a better understanding of of the notion, some more recommended reading...


The definition of reality according to the Cambridge Dictionary (online): the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be or fact ( its 2nd meaning)

Thus, reality can mean a fact.

The definition of fact according to the same dictionary: something that is known to have happened or to existespecially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information

Imagine that you see an ice cube. It is heated, it melted and became fluid. You perceived that happening. Yet, it is also real and a fact, regardless. You see a natural event (or some other phenomena) from your perspective, but it would still happen even if there were no living beings with perception in the universe. That particular case is not the point here. If you are not delusional, such things that you perceive happen in reality and are factual things.

I don't have the time to read that long writing now, yet I don't have any sorts of confusion on this matter. 

Edit: Sorry for all those "fonts". Before I posted, they were not so, haha.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 17 2023 at 08:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 09:25
I like eating paper sometimes....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 11:00
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Thus, reality can mean a fact.


Of course it can. As a matter of fact, this thread is a proof of that. But that there is a confusion between the notions of "reality" and "fact" is also a fact prooven by this thread. You can use a dictionary to find a definition of a word, but a dictionary is quite limited when it comes to meta-discussions, and doesn't give any explanation. Hence my link to that "long writing": it shows that the notion of "fact" is much more complexe in science and philosophy. It can have different meanings, depending on how it is used and who uses it in what context. Limiting it to just one meaning would be... well, a bit limited...

That said, I very much agree with Nietsche, who said "There are no facts, only interpretations".
(But how would he define "facts"? Tongue )




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 11:10
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

In everyday language - as is apparent in some comments here - there is often a confusion between "reality" and "fact". To add to the confusion, but also maybe for a better understanding of of the notion, some more recommended reading...


The definition of reality according to the Cambridge Dictionary (online): the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be or fact ( its 2nd meaning)

Thus, reality can mean a fact.

The definition of fact according to the same dictionary: something that is known to have happened or to existespecially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information

Imagine that you see an ice cube. It is heated, it melted and became fluid. You perceived that happening. Yet, it is also real and a fact, regardless. You see a natural event (or some other phenomena) from your perspective, but it would still happen even if there were no living beings with perception in the universe. That particular case is not the point here. If you are not delusional, such things that you perceive happen in reality and are factual things.

I don't have the time to read that long writing now, yet I don't have any sorts of confusion on this matter. 

Edit: Sorry for all those "fonts". Before I posted, they were not so, haha.
My head hurts from eye strain trying to read this! Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2023 at 11:30
^ Sorry for that. Before pressing the post reply button, it was just a little bigger than usual fonts. I assume you're talking about the fonts there. Otherwise, I'm not that sorry. suitkees' recommended reading is infinitely more challenging. I'll read it sometime.
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