Roger Waters |
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:05 | |
About the recent discussion;
The original quote that caused this says "not". So, a perception/perspective exists but truth does not without the other. Or opinions exist but facts do not without the other.. Or else, nothing can exist without perception/perspective. Or no truth can exist without opinion. Quintessentially, it says that nothing is the truth and nothing is a fact. I think this is utterly laughable. I'm a solid materialist. Even if we, the living beings, perceive everything (every material thing) differently, they still exist materially. We, the animals, touch a stone. Right? It doesn't matter how we see it, in essence. Some get burned if the stone is hot, some are not affected at all. But the temperature of a stone can change from hot to cold. Is this solely a perspective? I think not. Anyway. Here's a poem about "truth" that I like very much: Edited by Archisorcerus - March 16 2023 at 18:13 |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65289 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:10 | |
^ But the stone will be brown in sunlight, blue in moonlight, orange in firelight, invisible in low light, and for all practical purposes nonexistent in no light. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10652 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:12 | |
Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2023 at 18:18 |
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:16 | |
How can it be nonexistent in no light? Also, if the total lack of light sucks up its material structure, it is a happening. Like, you eat your cake and it is gone into your belly. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65289 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:20 | |
^ It may be that light is in fact a key ingredient in external reality. But that's just my own wacky theory, so... |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14830 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:28 | |
The thing that is apparently hard to get about what I'm saying is that by stating the importance of perception and perspective I'm not saying there are no facts. I'm not saying "it's solely perception and therefore it's not a fact". All I'm saying is all we know about facts comes from perception and perspective. Even if we say "XXX exists independently of our perception", there is no way for us to know this independently of our perception.
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:31 | |
Facts still would exist even if there no living beings that have a perception existed in the universe. Our knowing or not knowing the facts does not change reality/realities. |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10652 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 18:39 | |
But I am talking about the object itself, "something that exists", which is the definition of a fact, and the object itself does not require human recognition of any kind. Edited by Easy Money - March 16 2023 at 19:37 |
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1587 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 19:11 | |
All things are quantum fluctuations. We (people) give those quantum fluctuations a sort of "identity" by naming them. However, depending on all sorts of things like the perception of wave length, density, mass etc, different creatures (and indeed people) will interpret these quantum fluctuations differently.
Add to this the separate and differentiated lived experiences of the observer, and how that impacts interpretation, what we are left with is a best guess really, depending on a combination of consensus reality and previous personal preference. The map however is not territory. Edited by Hugh Manatee - March 16 2023 at 19:12 |
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I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of uncertain seas |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14830 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 19:16 | |
Nice poem by England by the way.
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 20926 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 19:48 | |
There must be some really good weed going round.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65289 |
Posted: March 16 2023 at 20:49 | |
^ Good ? Does the phrase "What was I just saying?" mean anything --
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Posted: March 17 2023 at 05:38 | |
Which makes me think of this very interesting article by Umberto Eco: “On the Impossibility of Drawing a Map of the Empire on a Scale of 1 to 1” (in How to Travel with a Salmon). Recommended reading! In everyday language - as is apparent in some comments here - there is often a confusion between "reality" and "fact". To add to the confusion, but also maybe for a better understanding of of the notion, some more recommended reading...
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Posted: March 17 2023 at 05:48 | |
And a bit more about Roger Waters, this time with the Germans...
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14830 |
Posted: March 17 2023 at 06:56 | |
As much as I disagree with Roger on many things, I think this...
...is as outrageous as pretty much anything he has said. One can for sure discuss to what extent his views amount to antisemitism, but I think it should be generally acknowledged that this will always be a difficult issue, and the basis on which he'd claim he isn't is pretty clear to me, agree with it or not.
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
Posted: March 17 2023 at 07:36 | |
The definition of reality according to the Cambridge Dictionary (online): the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be or a fact ( its 2nd meaning) Thus, reality can mean a fact. The definition of fact according to the same dictionary: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information Imagine that you see an ice cube. It is heated, it melted and became fluid. You perceived that happening. Yet, it is also real and a fact, regardless. You see a natural event (or some other phenomena) from your perspective, but it would still happen even if there were no living beings with perception in the universe. That particular case is not the point here. If you are not delusional, such things that you perceive happen in reality and are factual things. I don't have the time to read that long writing now, yet I don't have any sorts of confusion on this matter. Edit: Sorry for all those "fonts". Before I posted, they were not so, haha. Edited by Archisorcerus - March 17 2023 at 08:07 |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17863 |
Posted: March 17 2023 at 09:25 | |
I like eating paper sometimes....
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Posted: March 17 2023 at 11:00 | |
Of course it can. As a matter of fact, this thread is a proof of that. But that there is a confusion between the notions of "reality" and "fact" is also a fact prooven by this thread. You can use a dictionary to find a definition of a word, but a dictionary is quite limited when it comes to meta-discussions, and doesn't give any explanation. Hence my link to that "long writing": it shows that the notion of "fact" is much more complexe in science and philosophy. It can have different meanings, depending on how it is used and who uses it in what context. Limiting it to just one meaning would be... well, a bit limited... That said, I very much agree with Nietsche, who said "There are no facts, only interpretations". (But how would he define "facts"? ) |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20616 |
Posted: March 17 2023 at 11:10 | |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Archisorcerus
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 02 2022 Location: Izmir Status: Offline Points: 2677 |
Posted: March 17 2023 at 11:30 | |
^ Sorry for that. Before pressing the post reply button, it was just a little bigger than usual fonts. I assume you're talking about the fonts there. Otherwise, I'm not that sorry. suitkees' recommended reading is infinitely more challenging. I'll read it sometime.
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