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King Crimson's little success?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2020 at 07:11
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Yeah, Fripp never learned that he had to stand up and play guitar onstage!!  LOL

That is what Lake told him, anyway.  
...

Hi,

Please stop this ... his ability is tied to all the electronics he uses and pedals ... and what he does, 9 out of 10 hackers in front of the crowd can't even touch or begin to do. And when I saw him he had a keyboard on his side, possibly just a midi keyboard, but still he noodled on it, and I'm guessing it was settings and possibly adding something or other to a sound .... hard to tell from a distance.

There is nothing wrong with someone sitting down ... PERIOD. Only in America and England, where the "audience" is boss, is this a problem. And if it were me, there is money in the USA but if I can not sit down ... no playing in the USA ... would you rather not have KC with RF sitting, then?

I really think that this audience "demand/ego" needs to be let go ... and thinking that a guy trying to prance around like an ugly ballerina will be better than Robert Fripp ... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2020 at 08:11
Here's the actual quote as to why Fripp sits

"Because you can't play guitar standing up. At least I can't. In the semi-pro bands I played in, I stood up uncomfortably. With King Crimson I did about three or four gigs standing up, and said, "This is hopeless, I just can't play this way." Greg Lake said, "You can't sit down; you'll look like a mushroom." I felt it wasn't my job to stand up and look moody. My job was to play, and I couldn't play standing up. I generally find it very difficult to play on stage, and I detest recording. I suppose playing live gigs is the thing I enjoy doing most. Let's put it another way: It's one of the things I dislike the least."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2020 at 08:13
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Here's the actual quote as to why Fripp sits

"Because you can't play guitar standing up. At least I can't. In the semi-pro bands I played in, I stood up uncomfortably. With King Crimson I did about three or four gigs standing up, and said, "This is hopeless, I just can't play this way." Greg Lake said, "You can't sit down; you'll look like a mushroom." I felt it wasn't my job to stand up and look moody. My job was to play, and I couldn't play standing up. I generally find it very difficult to play on stage, and I detest recording. I suppose playing live gigs is the thing I enjoy doing most. Let's put it another way: It's one of the things I dislike the least."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 12:52
Lake was right, he does look like a mushroom.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 00:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Yeah, Fripp never learned that he had to stand up and play guitar onstage!!  LOL

That is what Lake told him, anyway.  
...

Hi,

Please stop this ... his ability is tied to all the electronics he uses and pedals ... and what he does, 9 out of 10 hackers in front of the crowd can't even touch or begin to do. And when I saw him he had a keyboard on his side, possibly just a midi keyboard, but still he noodled on it, and I'm guessing it was settings and possibly adding something or other to a sound .... hard to tell from a distance.

There is nothing wrong with someone sitting down ... PERIOD. Only in America and England, where the "audience" is boss, is this a problem. And if it were me, there is money in the USA but if I can not sit down ... no playing in the USA ... would you rather not have KC with RF sitting, then?

I really think that this audience "demand/ego" needs to be let go ... and thinking that a guy trying to prance around like an ugly ballerina will be better than Robert Fripp ... 

LOL!!  Chill, I know the man.  He has to sit down to play the guitar the way HE needs to play it.  However, popularity in rock music precludes sitting down onstage if you are a guitarist.  Can you name another guitarist who sat (besides Hackett, who eventually learned how to play & stand)?  Except for trad jazz and classical players, I can't.  


Edited by cstack3 - April 05 2020 at 00:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 00:50
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Yeah, Fripp never learned that he had to stand up and play guitar onstage!!  LOL

That is what Lake told him, anyway.  
...

Hi,

Please stop this ... his ability is tied to all the electronics he uses and pedals ... and what he does, 9 out of 10 hackers in front of the crowd can't even touch or begin to do. And when I saw him he had a keyboard on his side, possibly just a midi keyboard, but still he noodled on it, and I'm guessing it was settings and possibly adding something or other to a sound .... hard to tell from a distance.

There is nothing wrong with someone sitting down ... PERIOD. Only in America and England, where the "audience" is boss, is this a problem. And if it were me, there is money in the USA but if I can not sit down ... no playing in the USA ... would you rather not have KC with RF sitting, then?

I really think that this audience "demand/ego" needs to be let go ... and thinking that a guy trying to prance around like an ugly ballerina will be better than Robert Fripp ... 

LOL!!  Chill, I know the man.  He has to sit down to play the guitar the way HE needs to play it.  However, popularity in rock music precludes sitting down onstage if you are a guitarist.  Can you name another guitarist who sat (besides Hackett, who eventually learned how to play & stand)?  Except for trad jazz and classical players, I can't.  

And even Holdsworth used to stand and play.  And played way more technical stuff than Fripp.  But I suppose his work is cheap, commercial crass in mosh's telling.  Nevermind that Holdsworth didn't make much money off his recordings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 20:48
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Yeah, Fripp never learned that he had to stand up and play guitar onstage!!  LOL

That is what Lake told him, anyway.  
...

Hi,

Please stop this ... his ability is tied to all the electronics he uses and pedals ... and what he does, 9 out of 10 hackers in front of the crowd can't even touch or begin to do. And when I saw him he had a keyboard on his side, possibly just a midi keyboard, but still he noodled on it, and I'm guessing it was settings and possibly adding something or other to a sound .... hard to tell from a distance.

There is nothing wrong with someone sitting down ... PERIOD. Only in America and England, where the "audience" is boss, is this a problem. And if it were me, there is money in the USA but if I can not sit down ... no playing in the USA ... would you rather not have KC with RF sitting, then?

I really think that this audience "demand/ego" needs to be let go ... and thinking that a guy trying to prance around like an ugly ballerina will be better than Robert Fripp ... 

LOL!!  Chill, I know the man.  He has to sit down to play the guitar the way HE needs to play it.  However, popularity in rock music precludes sitting down onstage if you are a guitarist.  Can you name another guitarist who sat (besides Hackett, who eventually learned how to play & stand)?  Except for trad jazz and classical players, I can't.  

And even Holdsworth used to stand and play.  And played way more technical stuff than Fripp.  But I suppose his work is cheap, commercial crass in mosh's telling.  Nevermind that Holdsworth didn't make much money off his recordings.

Bob sits down because he needs his heavy Les Paul to be perfectly stable to accommodate his picking and fretting style, which are more akin to traditional jazz guitar (where he came from originally) than blues-rock guitar.  Holdsworth came from a completely different planet, I swear he could get 10 notes out of a single pick-stroke with his hammer-on, legato style!   I love this picture of Bob, this says it all. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 21:40
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:


Bob sits down because he needs his heavy Les Paul to be perfectly stable to accommodate his picking and fretting style, which are more akin to traditional jazz guitar (where he came from originally) than blues-rock guitar.  Holdsworth came from a completely different planet, I swear he could get 10 notes out of a single pick-stroke with his hammer-on, legato style!   I love this picture of Bob, this says it all. 



I think basically Fripp was not comfortable playing standing up and he has acknowledged at other times that performing live was not the most comfortable experience for him, in terms of feeling like he had to live up to audience's expectations or something on those lines (I forget the actual quote).  It should be added here that at the time Fripp started out (with Giles, Giles & Fripp) the concept of a rock guitar God hadn't yet really taken root and, as you mention, traditional jazz guitarists used to sit and play anyway.  This may also be why Hackett used to sit and play for a long time.  He broke out of the habit when he went solo but Fripp didn't feel compelled to. By the time Holdsworth or Al Di Meola (who used to wield a mighty Les Paul and before that a PRS himself)  came along, it had become 'mandatory' for guitar players (outside trad jazz) to stand. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 22:07
If the music's good enough and the show entertaining enough otherwise, I couldn't really care less if the whole band decided to sit down and play. Not prog, but I saw Bob Dylan last year and he spent more than half the gig sitting at the piano. The rest of the band barely moved around, even if they were standing. I was entranced the whole time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 22:26
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Maybe I don't understand what you are trying to state. I don't hear much changes in KC music during most of their 80s output. Red is nothing like Poseidon or Lizard, most everything else is fairly samey. 


Not only Red, Larks Tongue In Aspic and Starless And Bible Black too were nothing like Lizard.  Lizard was nothing like Poseidon/ITCOTCK either.  And even Lizard and Islands aren't particularly  alike.  Reason?  The line up changed even between Lizard and Islands.  And the lineup for LTIA-SABB-Red was a total revamp of the band.  Wetton and Bruford had never played for KC before.  It is difficult to take seriously the claim then that LTIA somehow sounds similar to say Poseidon, Lizard or Court of the Crimson King.  Unless Fripp forced Bruford and Wetton to play the same music as on those albums, that wouldn't happen.  

Then, Discipline-Beat-Three of a Perfect Pair is again a new chapter in KC that simply has nothing in common with everything previously done by the band and has much more in common with what Talking Heads were up to at that time.  It is one thing for Rush to go from a loosely LZ based sound to adding new wave tinges by the time of Permanent Waves/Moving Pictures but Fripp was there in 1969 during the take off of prog and went from Epitaph to Frame by Frame.  Same sounding?  Exactly how?

I feel like they meant that KC's 80s output is fairly samey, whereas Rush's 80s output changed rapidly from one record to the next (MP is really very little like HYF, aside from one possibly reused guitar riff between Limelight and Time Stand Still).

Can't say I know though, I haven't heard any KC post-Red. I totally agree that their 70s stuff just veers wildly from one idea to the next, not only between albums but often between songs. Lizard and Islands are like the same kernel of an idea, except one goes left and the other goes right... to the extremes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2020 at 02:30
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

I feel like they meant that KC's 80s output is fairly samey, whereas Rush's 80s output changed rapidly from one record to the next (MP is really very little like HYF, aside from one possibly reused guitar riff between Limelight and Time Stand Still).

Can't say I know though, I haven't heard any KC post-Red. I totally agree that their 70s stuff just veers wildly from one idea to the next, not only between albums but often between songs. Lizard and Islands are like the same kernel of an idea, except one goes left and the other goes right... to the extremes.

He mentioned both about their 80s output and also the 70s.  He mentions "Red is nothing like Poseidon or Lizard, mostly everything else is fairly samey." I must be missing something here because none of those three albums are from the 80s and everything else in that context means everything else KC made.  And as you agree, they do not sound the same.  At all.  And for a Rush fan to accuse KC of being samey is pretty hilarious.  Not that Rush didn't change up things but their changes were really modest compared to KC's dramatic reinventions between lineups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2020 at 06:02
This has probably already been said but sales does not equal success. Wink I think when it comes to most high quality albums they may have beem more successful.

Edited by Slartibartfast - April 06 2020 at 06:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2020 at 13:47
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

I feel like they meant that KC's 80s output is fairly samey, whereas Rush's 80s output changed rapidly from one record to the next (MP is really very little like HYF, aside from one possibly reused guitar riff between Limelight and Time Stand Still).

Can't say I know though, I haven't heard any KC post-Red. I totally agree that their 70s stuff just veers wildly from one idea to the next, not only between albums but often between songs. Lizard and Islands are like the same kernel of an idea, except one goes left and the other goes right... to the extremes.

He mentioned both about their 80s output and also the 70s.  He mentions "Red is nothing like Poseidon or Lizard, mostly everything else is fairly samey." I must be missing something here because none of those three albums are from the 80s and everything else in that context means everything else KC made.  And as you agree, they do not sound the same.  At all.  And for a Rush fan to accuse KC of being samey is pretty hilarious.  Not that Rush didn't change up things but their changes were really modest compared to KC's dramatic reinventions between lineups.

I took it that by referencing those three 70s albums being different he was implying the 70s stuff varies a lot and the post-70s stuff doesn't by contrast. But I suppose it's not my place to speak for someone else, lol.

Being modest compared to KC isn't exactly unusual, lol. I'd say Rush have had a more dramatic chain of evolutions than most bands, at least most bands at their level of commercial and critical success.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fysix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 00:15
I'm primarily a modern prog metal guy, but I recently started listening through the KC discography in sequence as part of a "musical discovery" on another forum. Being very familiar with the band's name, the cover of "In the Court...", and the main theme of 21st Century Schizoid Man, I realized that this must be an extremely limited view of a highly influential band that should be corrected.

I'm halfway through Starless… now, and so far I'm surprised. The more I hear, the more it changes from what I thought the band's style was. The longer, free-form / ambientish sections with low volume sound unusual to my ears accustomed to pre-structured / rigidly GuitarPro-composed, heavily compressed and fixed-to-click newer music. Most resonant to me was the second part of Larks'...

Regarding the original question, I agree with some earlier posts that from what I heard to now, the vocals are not the strong point, which is secondary to an instrumental-focused guy like me, but probably key for commercial success. Also, the shorter attention span of (more) mainstream listeners probably doesn't care much for the extended ambient sections.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 00:58
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Being modest compared to KC isn't exactly unusual, lol. I'd say Rush have had a more dramatic chain of evolutions than most bands, at least most bands at their level of commercial and critical success.

That I agree with.  Key being bands of their level of commercial success.  For their level, they changed a lot.  But these changes were always within a framework where the essential Rush sound could be recognised.  They have never gone into full fledged metal or the prog jazz space of Scarcity of Miracles nor symphonic prog.  They have also played within an accessible hard rock space and adding what they could to that base to keep things interesting.
 
And that's absolutely FINE, there is no obligation for a band to have insane amounts of variety in their catalog.  But that also underlines the difference between a band like Rush and KC.  There is no KC sound, the sound keeps changing depending primarily on what Fripp is interested in and also on the musicians he chooses to assemble for his next project.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 03:39
Actually there are certain KC elements that are pretty constant from the beginnings to these days. On (almost) all albums they show their very own brand of heavy guitar riff based rock (and Fripp's riffs are like nobody else's) in contrast with their more "lyrical" side, which again is fairly recognizable. Sure they changed a lot, but I still think they have a quite recognizable trademark sound. It is no accident that all later incarnations could play Schizoid Man, Starless, Larks, or Indiscipline in a live setting still producing a very consistent show.

Edited by Lewian - April 07 2020 at 03:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 03:45
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Actually there are certain KC elements that are pretty constant from the beginnings to these days. On (almost) all albums they show their very own brand of heavy guitar riff based rock (and Fripp's riffs are like nobody else's) in contrast with their more "lyrical" side, which again is fairly recognizable. Sure they changed a lot, but I still think they have a quite recognizable trademark sound. 

There's next to no heavy guitar at all on Discipline. It's a VERY guitar oriented album and yet has no heavy guitar, bang in the middle of the heavy guitar era.  So one can say occupying a contrarian position compared to where rock is at is Fripp's speciality (Wetton KC offered a very abrasive sound at the peak of keyboard drenched symph prog excess).  But that position by itself leads to very different results when going from one line up to another. With the benefit of hindsight, it's possible to say now that Scarcity of Miracles was ahead of the curve in embracing a lush, dynamic production and a 'live' sound in a move away from compression and quantization.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 03:48
Well, I'd say the sound of the guitars is different on Discipline and the early 80s trilogy. but the handling of riffs is quite similar. I surely hear that the band that did Indiscipline is the same that did Court, and Frame by Frame, Discipline and other tracks have a clear connection to the approach taken on Larks. Maybe I didn't do it justice when I wrote "trademark sound" - it's more subtle than that, but still I'd think there is something eminently recognizable in their approach.


Edited by Lewian - April 07 2020 at 03:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 04:10
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Well, I'd say the sound of the guitars is different on Discipline and the early 80s trilogy. but the handling of riffs is quite similar. I surely hear that the band that did Indiscipline is the same that did Court, and Frame by Frame, Discipline and other tracks have a clear connection to the approach taken on Larks. Maybe I didn't do it justice when I wrote "trademark sound" - it's more subtle than that, but still I'd think there is something eminently recognizable in their approach.

There may be something underlying that connects them, that is possible, but as a heavy metal aficionado, I don't hear anything I would call heavy rock or heavy guitar on the songs you named other than Indisciplined. It's barely as 'heavy' as anything on Juju and that's still nowhere near heavy territory for 1981.  Rush's own Witch Hunt is easily heavier than anything on Discipline.  And again, that's still nowhere near Mob Rules/Killers territory.  Van Halen were plenty heavy too at around this time as were Scorpions (who would start to go vapid with Savage Amusement).  Indiscipline is the only track that I would characterise as heavy and most of the heaviness in turn on that track comes from Bruford's fills rather than the guitarwork.  My contention is that metal in the 80s had moved onto a kind of chugging, machine gun riff pattern while Fripp at this point was harking back to 70s Sabbath patterns or what he himself used to do from the first album coming up to Red.  So what sounded heavy in 1974 no longer sounds that heavy in 1981. 

On Indiscipline, I do hear something that connects it with the trademark Schizoid Man riff which Fripp has reused several times over in many disguises.  To that extent, I agree with your point.  There is always something on a KC album following that sort of progression, as if to establish the link with what came before.  But that is also because that liberates Fripp to pursue totally different directions on the other tracks.  So Frame By Frame...no, the closest it resembles is Talking Heads' work on both Fear of Music and Remain In Light rather than anything KC ever did.  In fact, I have never heard anything so happy sounding from KC as Frame by Frame or Elephant Talk.  The undercurrent of menace or a sense of foreboding used to link other albums with each other but it is absent on both tracks (as also on Thela Hun Ginjeet/Matte Kudasai).  It's as if he has given permission to the band to play gleefully with abandon.   


Edited by rogerthat - April 07 2020 at 04:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 16:53
There's certainly a common thread running through KC's 70s album. No matter how drastically the overall style shifts, I think Fripp is (like most songwriters) prone to playing certain chord progressions and licks. In Fripp's case I think he's frequently attracted to certain dissonances and crushing guitar tones in his electric playing. I think he also frequents certain melancholy progressions and somber melodies that play into an undercurrent of dread. There's a thread between Epitaph and Starless.
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